For the drummers in here, a Carter question...

[AJDMB05]

So I'm browsing around a Flecktones board when I saw a thread about Futureman, and I took a look at it. The discussion quickly shifted to other drummers as a comparison and Carter was brought up. Someone quickly laid down a list of every DMB song and their time signature, saying "Doesn't look like Carter has been pushed that much in way of diffcult time signatures."

If you'd ignore the Some Devil songs on there (the list was taken directly from AM.org, since the song titles that begin with "The" are rewritten, ex: Space Between, The.") I still find it interesting. Like, I know DIDO is in 6/8, but I could've sworn Let You Down was in 3/4, and that YNK was much more complicated than a couple measures of 5/8 and 6/8.

Yet at the same time this guy seems like he knows his shit with drums. Any information would be awesome, this guy's list really has me interested. FTT chorus in 9/8?

[justinfisher78]

what's your question exactly?

[RushianSyrinx]

YNK is complicated due to carter's way of phrasing his drum parts and his fills, and basically to count it, ignore carter lol

yNK is 5/8 6/8
FTT is indeed 9/8
havent listened to LYD in a while, so ill give that a spin tonite and let me know

but can you link us to the threads?

[bdfresh62]

Rapunzel is 5/4, 4/4, and 6/8

[bdfresh62]

Also, could you post the list you were talking about with the time sigs. I'd be interested in seeing that.

[RushianSyrinx]

dt - 7/8
satellite - 6/8
pm - 3/4

[PilotC150]

You Never Know sounds so complicated because the accent isn't on the one of each measure, it's on the two, I believe. Makes it REALLY hard to count.

[AJDMB05]

Haha.. wow, I forgot the link.

And I didn't really have a specific question, I was just more or less questioning the accuracy of the list. It's here:

http://www.flecktones.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2667

[saxman1083]

one thing i have to say is...i think it is amazing how carter can sometimes take a simple time signature and make it feel like a complex compound meter such as the 11/16 that thread spoke of.

[drummin69]

one thing i have to say is...i think it is amazing how carter can sometimes take a simple time signature and make it feel like a complex compound meter such as the 11/16 that thread spoke of.


I really think that is from his jazz influence. Jazz drumming is very dependent on the stress of certain beats. They change from measure to measure and it's all the drummer's decision. Carter certainly shows that on YNK and Satellite

[RushianSyrinx]

one thing i have to say is...i think it is amazing how carter can sometimes take a simple time signature and make it feel like a complex compound meter such as the 11/16 that thread spoke of.

I beleive you mean Futch, as DMB doesn't play in 11/16

[saywhuut]

You Never Know sounds so complicated because the accent isn't on the one of each measure, it's on the two, I believe. Makes it REALLY hard to count.


I concur with that. What a hard song to really lock into on the drums! Does anyone have any tips, or did it just come to you by practicing and listening to over and over...and over??



Stephen

[RushianSyrinx]

just remember, with YNK, that most of carters tom fills end with a crash on the "6" of the measure (123-456)

[Dancing Ants]

i have never seen anything to prove that the Drumitar is a superior instrument to the drums. C'mon...it's like one of those Bop-It! things.

[RushianSyrinx]

go try and play a song on drumset...

but only using the drumset settting on a keyboard

[drummin69]

go try and play a song on drumset...

but only using the drumset settting on a keyboard


Very different and very difficult

[musicman_ace]

You also have to consider that Dave will throw in an odd measure sometimes so the song may be 4/4 but 3 different times in the song, a 3/4 measure was tossed into the mix.

[RushianSyrinx]

You also have to consider that Dave will throw in an odd measure sometimes so the song may be 4/4 but 3 different times in the song, a 3/4 measure was tossed into the mix.

thats not difficult at all tho, especially to a drummer long performing

[saxman1083]

I beleive you mean Futch, as DMB doesn't play in 11/16

I meant that carter can make a consecutive number of measures in simple time signatures seem like a combination of measures with very complex signatures by always changing the strong beats and offbeats.

[RushianSyrinx]

he's just very good at displacing beats, but while ive heard him do many a crazy thing...
ive never said "oh, he sounds like hes playing in x/y"

[nlaposta1]

that list is pretty sloppy. off the top of my head:

let you down is NOT 4/4 except for the 'i have no lid' part. there are five 2/4s. you can say that or alternating 4/4 and 6/4.

rapunzel also has 7/8, amongst the 5/4, 6/8 and 4/4.

The chorus of dodo is NOT 2/4 - there is a measure of 6/8, followed by a measure of 5/4.

and there are a bunch more as well...

[jordonh]

who cares about time signatures and such...if it sounds cool, its great.....difficult doesnt mean good!

[youneverno41]

who cares about time signatures and such...if it sounds cool, its great.....difficult doesnt mean good!
:D :D :D I agree 100%

[drummin69]

who cares about time signatures and such...if it sounds cool, its great.....difficult doesnt mean good!


Well......actually to a drummer, something that is considered difficult does mean good. If a drummer pulls off an amazing time sig that fits with a song (i.e. Fool To Think) and does it well, it will attract other drummers and educated musicians to that.

[RushianSyrinx]

Well......actually to a drummer, something that is considered difficult does mean good. If a drummer pulls off an amazing time sig that fits with a song (i.e. Fool To Think) and does it well, it will attract other drummers and educated musicians to that.

he hit the nail on the head with that one

some drummers are more attracted than others

id rather listen to someone navigate a maze of time sigs
than listen to ringo jam away in 4/4

[cavecricket2k2]

Time signatures aren't the only thing that make a drummer great.

Some of the fills and grooves carter does in 4/4 are more complex than most time signatures

[drummin69]

Time signatures aren't the only thing that make a drummer great.




Don't think anyone said that.

[RushianSyrinx]

Don't think anyone said that.

agreed - no one said that
time sig crazyness = godly


...although mike portnoy gets that for some reason...
(im a big DT fan, but his drumming is very repatative - very good/cool parts, but his fills are repetative)
the good thing about MP, is he KNOWS he isnt rudimentally talented or drum fill talented and even mocks himself on a few occasions like video commentary "oh, theres the MP stock fill again..."

[rmander]

rapunzel also has 7/8, amongst the 5/4, 6/8 and 4/4.



Where is there 7/8 in Rapunzel? :confused:

[saxman1083]

Where is there 7/8 in Rapunzel? :confused:

there actually is one lone 7/8 bar that bridges the last verse with the jam. you know where dave sings his "i do, my best, for you, i do, a yeeeah".
this 7/8 bar pretty much replaces the normal 6/4 bar which leads into the verses as a hangover from the 5/4. ex....the intro to the song is 7 5/4 bars followed by a 6/4. the final verse is all 4/4, so to make up for the lack of 5/4 the second half of the "best" eight note from the "i do my best for you" is the down beat of the 7/8. the "ahh yeah" is started on the downbeat of the first 4/4 of the jam right after the 7/8 ends. so the 7/8 is basically the second half of "be(st)" and also contains "for you, i do" with do ending as the 7/8 bar ends.

This is what usually causes a train wreck or a near miss. On the 9.14.03 IEM dave thanks butch and carter for holding on to the song going through the 7/8 cuz he must have thought he was elsewhere in the song and played a 6/4. so somehow carter read daves mind and played a hiccup and the whole band caught on and made it through the jam with no worries.

[RushianSyrinx]

there actually is one lone 7/8 bar that bridges the last verse with the jam. you know where dave sings his "i do, my best, for you, i do, a yeeeah".
this 7/8 bar pretty much replaces the normal 6/4 bar which leads into the verses as a hangover from the 5/4. ex....the intro to the song is 7 5/4 bars followed by a 6/4. the final verse is all 4/4, so to make up for the lack of 5/4 the second half of the "best" eight note from the "i do my best for you" is the down beat of the 7/8. the "ahh yeah" is started on the downbeat of the first 4/4 of the jam right after the 7/8 ends. so the 7/8 is basically the second half of "be(st)" and also contains "for you, i do" with do ending as the 7/8 bar ends.

This is what usually causes a train wreck or a near miss. On the 9.14.03 IEM dave thanks butch and carter for holding on to the song going through the 7/8 cuz he must have thought he was elsewhere in the song and played a 6/4. so somehow carter read daves mind and played a hiccup and the whole band caught on and made it through the jam with no worries.


you are correct sir

[rmander]

there actually is one lone 7/8 bar that bridges the last verse with the jam. you know where dave sings his "i do, my best, for you, i do, a yeeeah".
this 7/8 bar pretty much replaces the normal 6/4 bar which leads into the verses as a hangover from the 5/4. ex....the intro to the song is 7 5/4 bars followed by a 6/4. the final verse is all 4/4, so to make up for the lack of 5/4 the second half of the "best" eight note from the "i do my best for you" is the down beat of the 7/8. the "ahh yeah" is started on the downbeat of the first 4/4 of the jam right after the 7/8 ends. so the 7/8 is basically the second half of "be(st)" and also contains "for you, i do" with do ending as the 7/8 bar ends.

This is what usually causes a train wreck or a near miss. On the 9.14.03 IEM dave thanks butch and carter for holding on to the song going through the 7/8 cuz he must have thought he was elsewhere in the song and played a 6/4. so somehow carter read daves mind and played a hiccup and the whole band caught on and made it through the jam with no worries.

Woah! Thanks, I never caught that before. I have new respect for the band and this song. :thumbsup

[RushianSyrinx]

Woah! Thanks, I never caught that before. I have new respect for the band and this song. :thumbsup

because of there being a bar of 7/8 in there?

[rmander]

because of there being a bar of 7/8 in there?

Yup! It makes it harder to play. I just like it when their are more time signatures. I think musically this song gives the band the most trouble. I'm just surprised I never caught that. I don't give it much thought actually.

[RushianSyrinx]

Yup! It makes it harder to play. I just like it when their are more time signatures. I think musically this song gives the band the most trouble. I'm just surprised I never caught that. I don't give it much thought actually.

So do i, i love progressive rock so I love time shifting...
but just that one measure doesnt impress me - its more so dave REMEMBERING it that causes the trouble :hug

[mmazz72]

id rather listen to someone navigate a maze of time sigs
than listen to ringo jam away in 4/4

when i'm playing, i like to toy around with different time signatures because i enjoy challenging myself.

when i'm listening to music, though, i like something i can tap my foot too. songs with 12 different time signatures in them just annoy me.

i'd rather listen to Bonham lay down a solid 4/4 groove than Portnoy noodling with some crazy signatures. gimme something i can dance to! :D

[RushianSyrinx]

The Crunge = the phattest, most dance/grooveable , sounds and feels like straight time, oddtime groove ever

[lezcuff]

The Crunge = the phattest, most dance/grooveable , sounds and feels like straight time, oddtime groove ever

Has Anybody seen that confounded bridge?

As guitar player in this mix, it's easy to miss the subtle changes of time signature if you're just playing with the flow.

I've played DMB for years without paying any attention to the time signature. Guitar is so EASY compared to drums. Both percussion, sure, but WOW what a difference. How many chances can you screw up on guitar before you get caught? Lots. How many drum beats can you miss? two, maybe one.

I bow to y'all. (and my wicked drummer son).

Maybe 9/8 is why I love to hear Fool to Think coming.

[RushianSyrinx]

The groove in the crunge is amazing, because its in 9/8 (i think, its been a while since i last listened) but it feels like a straight time groove...

thats a prime example of why bonham = godly

[LLeopardGGecko]

Oh man, time signatures are so overrated it isn't even funny. Give me a standard 4/4 or a 3/4 groove any day over any of that other crap. I have never understood drummers who think that difficult time signatures translate to good drumming. I've known plenty of drummers who could tell you anything you wanted to know about playing in 9/8 but they couldn't keep time playing a standard rock groove to save their life. Very messed up priorities if you ask me. That said, I do have respect for all those big drummers out there who can play in different time signatures, but it has never been my cup of tea. I think Carter has it all together, which is probably why I idolize the man. The craziest time signature stuff he does is in Rapunzel, but other than that he keeps it pretty basic (other than placing the one in different places).

[justinfisher78]

(other than placing the one in different places).


actually, Carter is pretty predictable with '1'

it's the rest of the measure/phrase he moves around

[LLeopardGGecko]

Eh, maybe you could say that. Although I can think of several instances where he puts the one in crazy places. Actually, it's more of him neglecting the one completely and not playing it for a few measures, which always gets me :D

[PilotC150]

If anyone is interested in the time signatures for You Never Know:

For the most part the song sits in 6/8 time. Although the verse parts are 3 measures of 5/8 followed by one measure of 6/8 to complete the phrase.

[justinfisher78]

Eh, maybe you could say that.

which is why i included 'phrase' in there as well

[LLeopardGGecko]

...ok

[saxman1083]

wow i completely forgot that i wrote all that shit about Rapunzel. Anyways... I think that in order to be a great drummer...you NEED to be able to play in whacked time signatures. That's what a drummer does...if a writer comes to you with a song that goes from 5/8 to 7/8 to 4/4 back to 5/8 then you gotta be able to groove with it.

[LLeopardGGecko]

I don't think you need to be able to play in "whacked" time signatures to be a great drummer. I guess that's a matter of personal opinion, but I know plenty of excellent drummers who don't venture out of 4/4. I think it's up there with that whole mentality that a fast drummer is a good drummer, which I totally disagree with. But to each his own.

[RushianSyrinx]

Its amazing how my mind has changed in 7 months - Now I'm all about a simple groove lol

[marco j]

funny carter plays one signature all the way through the first rapunzel jam and I think the solid time sig flows better.

[AndHereISit...]

there actually is one lone 7/8 bar that bridges the last verse with the jam. you know where dave sings his "i do, my best, for you, i do, a yeeeah".
this 7/8 bar pretty much replaces the normal 6/4 bar which leads into the verses as a hangover from the 5/4. ex....the intro to the song is 7 5/4 bars followed by a 6/4. the final verse is all 4/4, so to make up for the lack of 5/4 the second half of the "best" eight note from the "i do my best for you" is the down beat of the 7/8. the "ahh yeah" is started on the downbeat of the first 4/4 of the jam right after the 7/8 ends. so the 7/8 is basically the second half of "be(st)" and also contains "for you, i do" with do ending as the 7/8 bar ends.

This is what usually causes a train wreck or a near miss. On the 9.14.03 IEM dave thanks butch and carter for holding on to the song going through the 7/8 cuz he must have thought he was elsewhere in the song and played a 6/4. so somehow carter read daves mind and played a hiccup and the whole band caught on and made it through the jam with no worries.


whoever wrote this thread is brilliant

[AndHereISit...]

anyway, i guess my question is where can i find a correst list of the time signatures carter employs for dmb songs? i know he forrays into different signatures for some of his fills and tangents. but id like the basic signatures for the songs. im a guitarist and would like to create some loops to play along to on my computer.

[AndHereISit...]

*correct