If you think Michael Moore is a liar, READ THIS!

[Warehouse21]

http://michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16

There you can access the Bibliography for Fahrenheit 9/11, broken down into 6 sections. People who call Michael Moore a liar and a propogandist are just saying it because the guy RESEARCHES. He doesn't just go to CNN.com and read the latest story. You'll see that these sources are very detailed and very credible. Maybe then you'll reevaluate Michael Moore.

Now, I don't agree with Moore on every statement he makes(I agree far more than I disagree). But he is not a liar.

[saygoodbye12]

Did he ever discuss why he blew up an editorial piece to make it look like a headline?

[dmbnj79]

Go to moorelies.com. The man IS a liar and fabricates things to make HIMSELF look good.

Can't stand him.

[nubby]

I don't like him either. I don't believe a thing that comes from his movies.

[dmbnj79]

I certainly don't. Especially after seeing Bowling for Columbine. He's such an ass.

[SaraEve]

I support Michael more, and Warehouse21, you are correct, his info is correct. People do not like they way that he delivers it, because if it is not FOX news, it is not important.

But that is MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own. :)

[kgoedman]

it's not all a lie, it's not all the truth

people need to understand that you have to take moore's political comments with a grain of salt...is it that tough to do? no, and it would really help stop all this constant bitching about moore's work. just understand that he is making a political statement and fits facts to his argument, just like every other political commentator.

[AnyonebutBush]

http://michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16

There you can access the Bibliography for Fahrenheit 9/11, broken down into 6 sections. People who call Michael Moore a liar and a propogandist are just saying it because the guy RESEARCHES. He doesn't just go to CNN.com and read the latest story. You'll see that these sources are very detailed and very credible. Maybe then you'll reevaluate Michael Moore.

Now, I don't agree with Moore on every statement he makes(I agree far more than I disagree). But he is not a liar.Its funny when people talk about F 9/11 like its a movie not understanding that Bush plays himself and so do the rest of the retards. No actors! the truth has always been there , if they have not noticed it by now they never will.

[Holemandaddy]

it's not all a lie, it's not all the truth

people need to understand that you have to take moore's political comments with a grain of salt...is it that tough to do? no, and it would really help stop all this constant bitching about moore's work. just understand that he is making a political statement and fits facts to his argument, just like every other political commentator.
:thumbsup

they are not lies. but it is not the complete truth

[Jake]

this is all you need to know about Michael Moore. The soundbite by Pres. Bush talking about Terrorism on the golf course is in reaction to a homicide bombing in Israel. Moore does not point that out. That's why he's a propagandists. I truly feel bad for anyone who believes his tripe. That's how the Nazi's tricked everyone in Germany.

[cyberhound]

Here are some of the lies, editing lies, and lies of omission in F/911:

The Gore "victory" rally isn't celebrating a Florida win. It was held before the polls had even opened.

Like all the other networks, Fox mistakenly said that Gore had won in Florida. The first network to retract the Florida mistake was CBS, not Fox.

A 6-month study by a consortium of major newspapers shows that Bush would have won the Florida recount under any of the terms which Gore sought in his lawsuits.

Investigation by the Palm Beach Post and others shows that race was not a reason why election officials mistakenly disqualified some voters because they were incorrectly thought to have felony convictions.

Bush's Presidency before 9/11 was not in serious trouble. No commentator said that he looked like a lame-duck president. Congress had passed his #1 bill (the tax cut) and was on the way to passing his #2 bill (the education bill). The scene at the end of the movie in which Bush tells a rich audience "I call you my base," was from an October 2000 charity fund-raiser. Both Gore and Bush spoke at the fund-raiser and, as is the custom at the fund-raiser, made fun of themselves.

"In his first eight months in office before September 11th, George W. Bush was on vacation, according to the Washington Post, forty-two percent of the time." As the Washington Post reported, the figure includes weekends, and
includes time in "vacation locations" such as Camp David, where Bush was working-as when he met with Tony Blair.

In the golf course scene (about the middle of the movie), Bush had just heard about a terrorist attack on Israel. He called the press together to make a quick statement condemning the terrorism against Israel. He was not speaking
about attacks on the United States.

There is no evidence that Bush did not read the Aug. 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing about al Qaeda.

He never claimed that the title's "vagueness" was an excuse for not reading it.

The Briefing did not say "said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes." It said that the FBI has "not been able to corroborate" such a threat.

The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened for the general public.

According to Richard Clarke and the September 11 Commission, Clarke personally approved the Saudi departures, and the decision went no higher in the chain of command.

Moore lied to a TV reporter in claiming that Fahrenheit discloses Clarke's decision to the audience. Clarke called the Saudi exit material in Fahrenheit a "mistake" by Moore.

Contrary to what Fahrenheit claims, the September 11 Commission found that many Saudis were asked "detailed questions" before being allowed to leave.

James Bath did not invest bin Laden family money in Bush's energy company Arbusto. He invested his own money.

Bath's name was blacked-out from an Alabama National Guard record released by the White House-as required by federal law, which prohibits the disclosure of health-related personal information.

Prince Bandar has way too much influence on the U.S. government, as Fahrenheit shows, but American coddling of the Saudi tyranny is a long-standing bi-partisan tradition, not a Bush invention.

Harken Energy: Bush only sold the stock after company lawyers told him it was OK.

The reason that Bush "beat the rap" was because there was no evidence he had engaged in insider trading.

The Carlyle Group is not simply a Bush playground. Many Bush opponents are investors, including George Soros.

The Bush administration dealt Carlyle a huge financial blow by canceling the Crusader missile, one of the few weapons cancellations in the Bush administration.

The bin Ladens dropped out of Carlyle before the stock sale. Of the 1.4 billion that the Saudis invested in companies with Bush connections, the vast majority of the money was invested in Carlyle before George H.W. Bush joined the firm.

Craig Unger claims that the Saudis have $860 billion invested in the U.S. The figure appears in his book House of Bush, House of Saud, but neither of Unger's cited sources support such a large figure.

Moore claims that the Saudis "own 7% of America." But even if you believe Unger's fictitious $860 billion figure, the Saudis own only about 7% of total foreign investment in America, which is over 10 trillion dollars. Only if all of
America were owned by foreigners could Moore's claim be correct.

The Saudi embassy does not receive special protection. It is not the only foreign embassy which is guarded by the U.S. Secret Service. An international treaty signed by the U.S. requires the U.S. to protect any embassy which asks for protection.

Moore's insinuation that Bush runs U.S. foreign policy according to Saudi instructions is contradicted by the Afghanistan invasion (which toppled the Taliban regime which the Saudis strongly supported), and by the Iraq War
(which the Saudis opposed, in part because Iraqi oil will compete with Saudi oil).

As Governor of Texas, Bush never met with Taliban representatives.

The proposed Unocal pipeline was supported by the Clinton administration, but Unocal abandoned the pipeline idea in 1998.

The new Afghani government has signed a protocol to build a pipeline, but it is an entirely different pipeline, in a location hundreds of miles distant from the Unocal proposal.

Construction has not begun on the new pipeline. Although Moore claims that "Enron stood to benefit" from the pipeline, Enron has never had any participation in either pipeline.

The Bush administration did not "welcome" Taliban diplomats in March 2001, but instead condemned them for failing to hand over Osama bin Laden.

Despite Moore's pose in the movie, he opposed the Afghanistan War, and-in December 2002-claimed that Osama bin Laden might be innocent. If so, why be for the war? We invaded Afghanistan and overthrew the Taliban on the premise they were harboring Bin Laden.

In claiming that the Afghanistan invasion was a mere ruse to protect the Saudis, Moore omits the results of liberation in Afghanistan: destruction of al Qaeda training camps, the creation of free elections, more freedom for women, and the homecoming of 1.5 million refugees from the Taliban. If it were a ruse to protect the Saudi's why we he be for it?

The various quotes about Bush administration cooperation with the September 11 Commission have been resequenced to create a false impression. In July 2003, Chairman Kean complained about lack of cooperation. In February 2004, Bush said that the White House had given extraordinary cooperation. Kean agreed, and praised the White House for providing "unprecedented"
access.

John Ashcroft didn't really lose a Senate election to a "dead guy." Mel Carnahan died in a plane crash a few weeks before the election, and the Missouri Governor had promised to appoint Carnahan's widow Jean Carnahan if voters pulled the lever for Mel Carnahan. She lost that seat in 2002.

Ashcroft did not cut overall counter-terrorism funding. He only proposed a one-year cut in a particular program that already had two years of unspent money.

Rep. Porter Goss says he has an "800 number," and the Fahrenheit caption says "He's lying." Goss does have a tollfree number, although the prefix is 877.

Moore says Saddam's Iraq "had never murdered a single American citizen." In fact, Saddam paid for terrorist bombers in Israel who murdered Americans, along with people of other nationalities. Saddam also sheltered the American-killing terrorist Abu Nidal, and the bomb-maker for the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

In addition, Saddam ordered assassination attempts against former President Bush and against U.S. diplomats in the Philippines.

Moore claims that the Saddam regime "never threatened to attack the United States." In fact, in 1997 the regime publicly ordered: "American and British interests, embassies, and naval ships in the Arab region should be the targets of military operations and commando attacks by Arab political forces." On the first anniversary of September 11, Saddam's regime called for suicide attacks on Americans.

Moore claims that there was no connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. In fact, there is an extensive record of collaboration although-as the September 11 Commission announced-there is no proof that Saddam participated
beforehand in al Qaeda attacks on America.

Fahrenheit shows Condoleezza Rice saying, "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11." The audience laughs derisively. Here is what Rice really said on Nov. 28, 2003: "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It's not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they're all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East...."

Moore portrays pre-liberation Iraq as a happy nation of kite-flying and weddings. In fact, a sixth of the population had fled Saddam's tyranny. The United Nations and Amnesty International condemned "the systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and
of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq, resulting in an all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based discrimination and widespread terror.''

The only Iraqi casualties which Moore shows are civilians, although military casualties far outnumbered civilian.

When showing pictures of buildings being blown up, Moore does not reveal that many of them were military buildings, and civilians were never allowed anywhere near them.

A humorous sequence making fun of tiny countries in the Iraq liberation Coalition does not even mention the major countries in the Coalition, such as the U.K., Australia, Italy, and Japan.

Not a deceit, but mean-spirited and exploitive: The footage of the funeral of U.S. Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone at Arlington National Cemetery appears without his family's permission, and over their vehement objection. Major Stone strongly believed in the Iraq mission, as does his family.The footage of Massachusetts National Guardsman Peter Damon, who is undergoing therapy at Walter Reed Army Medical Center is also used without his permission.

Despite Moore's claims, American media have not been mindlessly supportive of the Iraq war. For example, Peter Jennings has been extremely critical. The evidence that Moore offers to portray Jennings as a war supporter is a clip of Jennings reporting in April 2003 that Saddam's army had collapsed-which was true.

The scene of American soldiers making fun of a man underneath a sheet is not torture of a prisoner of war. They are making fun of a drunk who passed out in the street.

Moore reports that Bush proposed closing some Veteran's hospitals. But he also proposed opening other veteran's hospitals.

Bush once opposed renewing a special bonus of $75/month for soldiers in "imminent danger zones." Moore claims that Bush proposed cutting combat soldiers' pay by 1/3; but a soldier's pay and benefits is over $27,000 per year,
even at low enlisted grades.

While making false claims about a Bush pay cut, Moore omits the fact that Bush sought and won a 3.7% military pay raise in 2003.

Moore claims that only one Congressman has a child in Iraq. Actually, two do. (Democratic Senator Tim Johnson of S.D., and Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter of California.) Also, John Ashcroft had a son on a naval ship in the Persian
Gulf at that time.

Fahrenheit deceptively cut the footage of Rep. Mark Kennedy to make it look like Kennedy rebuffed Moore's request to help enlist Congressional children. In fact, Kennedy said it was a good idea, and offered to help.

Fahrenheit shows Rep. Michael Castle walking past Moore. But Rep. Castle is childless.

Based on Census Bureau data, Congressional families are more likely than other families to have children serving in Iraq.

[AnyonebutBush]

this is all you need to know about Michael Moore. The soundbite by Pres. Bush talking about Terrorism on the golf course is in reaction to a homicide bombing in Israel. Moore does not point that out. That's why he's a propagandists. I truly feel bad for anyone who believes his tripe. That's how the Nazi's tricked everyone in Germany.To me it doesnt matter if he was talking about a drive by shooting in compton. Its pethetic no matter which way you slice it!

[System]

Read his hat.

Micheal Moore is a Canadian.

he should go back to Canada, of course then he might be mistaken for a moose and shot during hunting season.

[mr.MikeD]

uh, no thanks, you guys can keep him.

[Route_2]

Canadian Bacon is funny.

[schmenencke]

The best liars never say a single thing that's actually false. They just construct their words (and images in this case) in such a way to leave you with an impression that is completely opposite the truth.

Michael Moore is a tremendous liar.

[SMN43]

it's not all a lie, it's not all the truth

people need to understand that you have to take moore's political comments with a grain of salt...is it that tough to do? no, and it would really help stop all this constant bitching about moore's work. just understand that he is making a political statement and fits facts to his argument, just like every other political commentator.
same with the swift boat people

[System]

uh, no thanks, you guys can keep him.

Come on, we will let you have him and we will take Celine Dion for good.


Sorry fellow americans, i offered up the worst of 2 evils.

[haildmb]

Come on, we will let you have him and we will take Celine Dion for good.


Sorry fellow americans, i offered up the worst of 2 evils.

I'll accept that trade

[sliver108]

The real question is this… How many things can you excuse and say it is just coincidence? A friend once told me that if you look for the bad you will find it and that is true. The same goes for the good I believe. I am 27 years old and through a lot of horrors that I have witnessed and that have happened to me directly I view things very differently these days. I like DMB because of what they stand for and what they sing about. I just believe this country and world has gone down hill in a lot of major ways. Mans character are not viewed as they should be and to a degree people don’t care about their character. I am voting for Kerry because the man has more character than Bush I believe. I do believe there were some lies and even a lot of over exploitation in Fahrenheit 911. Sometimes you have no choice but to yell when people can’t hear you in my opinion and that is what Moore did. This world needs another Lennon, Malcolm X and/or Martin Luther King Jr. We don’t have anyone like them now and that is a problem. Greed and selfishness takes bigger bites by the day out of this world and there needs to be a stop put to it.

[sliver108]

PS - I am not saying that Moore is the new lennon etc.

[Jake]

To me it doesnt matter if he was talking about a drive by shooting in compton. Its pethetic no matter which way you slice it!


I find that shocking by someone that goes by the nominclature "AnyonebutBush". Way to think it out, bucko.

[barefoot]

I find that shocking by someone that goes by the nominclature "AnyonebutBush". Way to think it out, bucko.
:lol I think anyone with that name loses a little credibility with their "insights"

[AnyonebutBush]

I find that shocking by someone that goes by the nominclature "AnyonebutBush". Way to think it out, bucko.I did think about it , I have been watching him for 3 years , but I must say I dont need to really think it out too hard to know that he ----------> :ggoat would do a better job!

[AnyonebutBush]

:lol I think anyone with that name loses a little credibility with their "insights"I dont need credibility I need a new President :thumbsup

[barefoot]

I would have more respect and value your ideas if you didnt have such a blind hate. To dislike Bush is something I can appreciate to say anyone but Bush, well that is a stretch.

[AnyonebutBush]

I would have more respect and value your ideas if you didnt have such a blind hate. To dislike Bush is something I can appreciate to say anyone but Bush, well that is a stretch.Its too bad I cant be confident enough in anyone else running for office , At this moment I am only willing to give Kerry a chance because he has no Presidential record. Bush has been President and I Disapprove a lot of what he has done with the power he holds in office. I will vote for Kerry hoping that he makes the decisions I as an American feel will make this a better country and a better world. I can understand your feelings towards my title but please dont judge someone by just the name. I have put a lot of time into learning about how this world works and I have earned my opinion more then most.

[Hudak-Budak]

Michael Moore may not be a liar, but everything he puts out is skewed towards his point of view.

Like how he tries to pull of this Joe Everyman look (sloppy coat, hat, too-lazy-to-shave beard) when he is actually a rich Manhattanite.

[nonewdirections]

In the golf course scene (about the middle of the movie), Bush had just heard about a terrorist attack on Israel. He called the press together to make a quick statement condemning the terrorism against Israel. He was not speaking about attacks on the United States.
that seriously does not let him off the hook for that.

[mwjorgens]

Its funny when people talk about F 9/11 like its a movie not understanding that Bush plays himself and so do the rest of the retards. No actors! the truth has always been there , if they have not noticed it by now they never will.
so true, forget the facts or numbers that people say are lies. watch the video clips of our cheif, listen to him speak. did moore put bushy up to all that??

[dmbnj79]

All Moore did was edit certain things to his liking to make the Bush Administration look bad. He's so unoriginal with that shit.

[barefoot]

Its too bad I cant be confident enough in anyone else running for office , At this moment I am only willing to give Kerry a chance because he has no Presidential record. Bush has been President and I Disapprove a lot of what he has done with the power he holds in office. I will vote for Kerry hoping that he makes the decisions I as an American feel will make this a better country and a better world. I can understand your feelings towards my title but please dont judge someone by just the name. I have put a lot of time into learning about how this world works and I have earned my opinion more then most.
That I can respect.

[cyberhound]

Its too bad I cant be confident enough in anyone else running for office , At this moment I am only willing to give Kerry a chance because he has no Presidential record. Bush has been President and I Disapprove a lot of what he has done with the power he holds in office. I will vote for Kerry hoping that he makes the decisions I as an American feel will make this a better country and a better world. I can understand your feelings towards my title but please dont judge someone by just the name. I have put a lot of time into learning about how this world works and I have earned my opinion more then most.
You will vote for Kerry hoping? What evidence do you have that he will do things that will change anything?

[AnyonebutBush]

You will vote for Kerry hoping? What evidence do you have that he will do things that will change anything?I just dont see the guy making the same decisions Bush has made. Hope is all I have at this point. When Bush won in 2000 I had no evidence that he would do what he did! Ya just never know what these muther fuckers are gonna do until they have the power to DO!

[Daevian]

I really don't think Micheal Moore much of a liar. I think he's more of a waste of oxygen and space. When I saw Bowling for Columbine I was really really pissed. Ya know why? I KNEW ALL THAT SHIT ALREADY! 4 dollars for this? WHY?! The best part is when he gets a gun from the bank and that's it! I REALLY loathe Mr. Moore because all he does is have stupid people that don't know what's going on come watch his movies and that makes ignorant people think they know something. That's a bad combonation.:violent

And it doesn't matter who you vote for they're gonna do what ever the people that paid them the most wants them to. Otherwise you end up like JFK.

[System]

I just dont see the guy making the same decisions Bush has made.

ya, i don't see kerry making a decision either...at all...on anything...

[Route_2]

ya, i don't see kerry making a decision either...at all...on anything...You're right. I bet if he got elected he would just sit at his desk and stare at the wall all day.

[System]

You're right. I bet if he got elected he would just sit at his desk and stare at the wall all day.

well only if that wall had his three purple hearts hanging on it.

[Route_2]

well only if that wall had his three purple hearts hanging on it.Shouldn't they be out on the lawn where he threw them?

[nancie31]

I dont need credibility I need a new President :thumbsup


Mexico has a new president.....

And hey, I hear Nike Factories are hiring

Hope that works out well for ya! :rolleyes:

[System]

Shouldn't they be out on the lawn where he threw them?

From what i understand he didn't throw his medals. his are hanging in his office at Congress

[cyberhound]

From what i understand he didn't throw his medals. his are hanging in his office at Congress
Wait, I thought he said he thought he meant to say ribbons.

[nancie31]

Wait, I thought he said he thought he meant to say ribbons.


:ugh: huh?....:lol

I read this like 5 times, and I must be tired, cause I'm confused

[System]

Wait, I thought he said he thought he meant to say ribbons.


Actually, I thought somethign was said about how an enemy sniper shot them off him while he was pulling a young child to safety on his swiftboat while taking hostile fire from Russians while inside Laos.

[cyberhound]

:ugh: huh?....:lol

I read this like 5 times, and I must be tired, cause I'm confused
So is Sen. Kerry.

[nancie31]

So is Sen. Kerry.


Bad enough that I share branch of service with this ass clown, now you have to add this to the things we would have in common.... :BANG :BANG :BANG

[marco j]

by voting in a new president the United States immediatel gains respect around the world. end of story.

[cyberhound]

by voting in a new president the United States immediatel gains respect around the world. end of story.
Having people like us is a great reason to vote for someone.:thumbsup

[marco j]

Having people like us is a great reason to vote for someone.:thumbsup


hey there you are!

are you going to try and debate the simple fact that a certain level of respect allows an easier avenue of dialogue between nations?!?!?

*edit*

and you are such an ass. having people 'like us' is not my sole reason for vting against Bush.

[barefoot]

by voting in a new president the United States immediatel gains respect around the world. end of story.
How do you figure? Respect is earned and Kerry has not earned any in the world except maybee France.

[cyberhound]

hey there you are!

are you going to try and debate the simple fact that a certain level of respect allows an easier avenue of dialogue between nations?!?!?

*edit*

and you are such an ass. having people 'like us' is not my sole reason for vting against Bush.
Did I say it was your sole reason? And yes, a certain level of respect can help if...the cause is right in the first place. The cause in Iraq is not right in the first place, and Kerry maintains he will stay the course (on somedays). The countries he seeks to bring in the fold (France, Russia, and Germany) have maintained they have no intentions of helping out simply because he becomes president. They may like him better than Bush but that doesn't mean they are going to fall in line because Kerry wins. Hence my point.

[marco j]

How do you figure? Respect is earned and Kerry has not earned any in the world except maybee France.

i was pointing out the country as a whole will look more intelligent and aware if we vote out Bush. and besides Kerry is a decorated war vet . he deffinately deserves more respect than george. i don't know why you would think kerry does not get respect from anyone other than france?!? he has met with several nations leaders already. shit when has george done that lately?!??

[cyberhound]

i was pointing out the country as a whole will look more intelligent and aware if we vote out Bush. and besides Kerry is a decorated war vet . he deffinately deserves more respect than george. i don't know why you would think kerry does not get respect from anyone other than france?!? he has met with several nations leaders already. shit when has george done that lately?!??
When did he meet with several nations leaders?

Now, I'm not saying Bush deserves respect, but you mean to tell me that an admitted war criminal deserves respect because of a few medals?

[System]

i was pointing out the country as a whole will look more intelligent and aware if we vote out Bush. and besides Kerry is a decorated war vet . he deffinately deserves more respect than george. i don't know why you would think kerry does not get respect from anyone other than france?!? he has met with several nations leaders already. shit when has george done that lately?!??

I raise my point again. Who cares what the other countries think. Do we need to fit in? no, we need to do what is best for ourselfs.

I don't care if france doesn't like us or not, I don't care if Spain likes us or not.

I feel our first priority should keep American's safe and not worry what the other countries think..


and also, just cause he is decorated vet doesn't make him more respectabel than Bush. Talk to some Viet Nam vets, they aren't to happy with Kerry for his little deal with Congress when he got back from his tour.

[marco j]

Did I say it was your sole reason? And yes, a certain level of respect can help if...the cause is right in the first place. The cause in Iraq is not right in the first place, and Kerry maintains he will stay the course (on somedays). The countries he seeks to bring in the fold (France, Russia, and Germany) have maintained they have no intentions of helping out simply because he becomes president. They may like him better than Bush but that doesn't mean they are going to fall in line because Kerry wins. Hence my point.


..but with more personable relationship other avenues of discussion can open up?!? right?!? this is something we don't even have the capability of at the moment. this reason alone is enough to replace him.
I'm actually having a hard time trying to figure out what our best course of action is pertaining to Iraq. the more i listen to and read the reports coming out of there it is getting worse everyday. if we pull out completely the country certainly is going towards a civil war. On the other hand if we pull out , it may be the missing link to the Iraqi's fighting amongst themselves(civil war) for a shorter period before a radical islamic regime is formed. either way the country is headed downhill i would just prefer none of our soldiers dying in the process. i know it's a dream but ...we'll see . maybe with new leadership we can gain some respect and the UN can get involved with more country's charging up to help secure peace in the middle east. simply put we do not have the man power alone to accomplish this. we need help and this administration seems hell bent on ruining relationships.

[cyberhound]

..but with more personable relationship other avenues of discussion can open up?!? right?!? this is something we don't even have the capability of at the moment. this reason alone is enough to replace him.
I'm actually having a hard time trying to figure out what our best course of action is pertaining to Iraq. the more i listen to and read the reports coming out of there it is getting worse everyday. if we pull out completely the country certainly is going towards a civil war. On the other hand if we pull out , it may be the missing link to the Iraqi's fighting amongst themselves(civil war) for a shorter period before a radical islamic regime is formed. either way the country is headed downhill i would just prefer none of our soldiers dying in the process. i know it's a dream but ...we'll see . maybe with new leadership we can gain some respect and the UN can get involved with more country's charging up to help secure peace in the middle east. simply put we do not have the man power alone to accomplish this. we need help and this administration seems hell bent on ruining relationships.
I share your sentiments on what might be likely in Iraq. But, considering the fraud, ineptness, and ineffectiveness that was and is the UN, having them involved is little more than feel good window dressing. I'd like not to go it alone either. But for all intents and purposes we've gone it alone since WW2.

[marco j]

I raise my point again. Who cares what the other countries think. Do we need to fit in? no, we need to do what is best for ourselfs.

I don't care if france doesn't like us or not, I don't care if Spain likes us or not.

I feel our first priority should keep American's safe and not worry what the other countries think..


and also, just cause he is decorated vet doesn't make him more respectabel than Bush. Talk to some Viet Nam vets, they aren't to happy with Kerry for his little deal with Congress when he got back from his tour.


yeah my dad's one of him. and he's an idiot himself for having such a narrow view.

...and again. we can protect ourselves alone. we need help and a consolidated effort of all mankind who wants to live free! we need to start listening to everyonelse's opinions around the world as if they come from ourselves. we are all connected to this threat and desire to prosper and live free. until we unite as a whole this can and never will be accomplished.

[System]

I share your sentiments on what might be likely in Iraq. But, considering the fraud, ineptness, and ineffectiveness that was and is the UN, having them involved is little more than feel good window dressing. I'd like not to go it alone either. But for all intents and purposes we've gone it alone since WW2.


UN is a bit outdated. The security council needs overhauling. NATO and the WARSAW Pact also need to go. oh, and the whole EU thing I am not so sure about that anymore either.

Peace is such a distant dream for so many people. I hope one day the actions we take now will lead towards peace for my children or even grandchildren

[System]

yeah my dad's one of him. and he's an idiot himself for having such a narrow view.



Imagine being a soldier risking your life for an unpopular war. Friends dying, missing out on life back in the states. Being in a complete HELL. Not knowing who you can trust and who you should shoot. I am sure the mental part of that war was huge.

Now the only people that understand fully what you are going through is the guy in the fox hole next to you. He is more than your brother now, he is one of you.

Then imagine another one of your "brothers" going before congress and telling them that the war is a sham. That everyone there was a baby killer, commiting crimes of war.

Ya, I would hate him too....


Now, try understanding your dad's point of view.

[cyberhound]

yeah my dad's one of him. and he's an idiot himself for having such a narrow view.
I don't think you understand your dad's point of view. And maybe I don't either. But from my point of view, Kerry, because he lacked foresight or because he wanted to further his own political ambitions, put lives at risk with his statements. The war was wrong in my opinion. I agree with Kerry on that. But I condemn his actions during the war and his methods of expressing himself after the war. Not only that, he indicted every thousands of soldiers of doing the same things he admitted to. And he has used that in his political career ever since. So, yes, I can see why he pisses off quite a few Vietnam vets and with good reason.

[AnyonebutBush]

Mexico has a new president.....

And hey, I hear Nike Factories are hiring

Hope that works out well for ya! :rolleyes:Well I dont care to much for Nike as long as the dont blow up a country because someone ruined a good pair of Air Jordans.

[marco j]

^ dummy

hate him why???? because he came home and confessed?!?! sorry his is a good thing it brought mor attention to the attrocities taking place.
i'm not even gonna try and give an example of another situation you may relate to.
the fact is a very large number of attrocites took place and he came home and talked about them. tell me where is the problem. the people who wanted to hide the truth?
the people who wanted the truth told, to ease their baggage? or is the problem the people who put these men there in the first place???

this answer is easy.

[System]

^ dummy

hate him why???? because he came home and confessed?!?! sorry his is a good thing it brought mor attention to the attrocities taking place.
i'm not even gonna try and give an example of another situation you may relate to.
the fact is a very large number of attrocites took place and he came home and talked about them. tell me where is the problem. the people who wanted to hide the truth?
the people who wanted the truth told, to ease their baggage? or is the problem the people who put these men there in the first place???

this answer is easy.

Nobody put Kerry there. He signed up.

Besides, I don't care how bad it is. I know what that no matter what I do, I have to live with my whole life. I have never been in combat, but I can hope that if I ever am I will stick by my morals and my beliefs and do my job to the best of my ability and cause minimal damage to the civilians around the war zone.

[marco j]

Nobody put Kerry there. He signed up.

Besides, I don't care how bad it is. I know what that no matter what I do, I have to live with my whole life. I have never been in combat, but I can hope that if I ever am I will stick by my morals and my beliefs and do my job to the best of my ability and cause minimal damage to the civilians around the war zone.

good for you. and yes he signed up but he didn't decide for the US to invade
Vietnam. so what's your point?

now what does that have to do with what you said earlier??? about understanding my dad????

or easier for you

why is it bad that Kerry came home and confessed before congress?

[cyberhound]

^ dummy

hate him why???? because he came home and confessed?!?! sorry his is a good thing it brought mor attention to the attrocities taking place.
i'm not even gonna try and give an example of another situation you may relate to.
the fact is a very large number of attrocites took place and he came home and talked about them. tell me where is the problem. the people who wanted to hide the truth?
the people who wanted the truth told, to ease their baggage? or is the problem the people who put these men there in the first place???

this answer is easy.
His method of doing so put other soldiers at risk. And I don't hate him. He's not worthy of my hate. He's not worthy of being my president. There is nothing John Kerry is worthy of, except the punishment due any other war criminal.

[marco j]

cyber are you saying he put soldiers at risk when they came home?

or in the field? if in the field i don't see how.

and if at home for mistreatment of GI's that is deffinatley not solely due to Kerry's speech.

[System]

good for you.

now what does that have to do with what you said earlier??? about understanding my dad????

or easier for you

why is it bad that Kerry came home and confessed before congress?

has nothing to do with what i said earlier. My point about understanding your dad is he most likely felt betrayed by him.

and because he put all the servicemen in country at risk, even more so than just being there.

[System]

cyber are you saying he put soldiers at risk when they came home?

or in the field? if in the field i don't see how.



POWs have stated that they (the Viet Cong, NVA, etc) played that speach as a tool to break their spirits.

[marco j]

so noting should have been said?!?!?

[cyberhound]

cyber are you saying he put soldiers at risk when they came home?

or in the field? if in the field i don't see how.

and if at home for mistreatment of GI's that is deffinatley not solely due to Kerry's speech.
POW's were tortured with Kerry's statements used as an excuse to do so. Of course they could have been tortured for any number of reasons, such as their captors were bored or whatever. But they were played his statements or their captors repeated those statements and cited them as reasons to punish them for their crimes.

[cyberhound]

Night all. Got a busy sales day tomorrow.

[System]

Night all. Got a busy sales day tomorrow.


I am out too....gotta make weapons of war tomorrow....

[marco j]

POW's were tortured with Kerry's statements used as an excuse to do so. Of course they could have been tortured for any number of reasons, such as their captors were bored or whatever. But they were played his statements or their captors repeated those statements and cited them as reasons to punish them for their crimes.


well considering the reasons we were there . the viets had every intention of torturing the soldiers . again this is not because of Kerry. they may have used footage of his speech. which by they way sounds very unlikely. i can see it now ......you're in the middle of the jungle in a tiny bamboo cage and starving and a gaurd drags you into his commmanding officers room so he can play a video for you!?!? i don't by it. but hey i'm not gonna rule it out i'll roll with it.

them using tapes of this speech does not mean kerry did anything wrong. this actually proves a good point. we shouldn't have been there,they knew it ,we knew it ,everyone knew it. they merely used the tape to show the soldiers they had no reason to stand behind a country who puts such little value on it's own citizens.

[System]

well considering the reasons we were there . the viets had every intention of torturing the soldiers . again this is not because of Kerry. they may have used footage of his speech. which by they way sounds very unlikely. i can see it now ......you're in the middle of the jungle in a tiny bamboo cage and starving and a gaurd drags you into his commmanding officers room so he can play a video for you!?!? i don't by it. but hey i'm not gonna rule it out i'll role with it.

them using tapes of this speech does not mean kerry did anything wrong. this actually proves a good point. we shouldn't have been there,they knew it ,we knew it ,everyone knew it. they merely used the tape to show the soldiers they had no reason to stand behind a country who pts such little value on it's own citizens.


you are rationalizing torture of American POWs by their communist captors...


wow...all i can say is wow....you better examine some of your logic, cause if you can rationalize torture, that totally throws out the Geneva Convention, and many other human rights.

Wow....

unfuckingbelievable....

wow...

I am actually in shock you said that, I know my views are heavy toward the right, but you are so far left there you went all the way around and ended up in the middle of communism/dictatorship/evil empire...

wow...

[marco j]

you are rationalizing torture of American POWs by their communist captors...


wow...all i can say is wow....you better examine some of your logic, cause if you can rationalize torture, that totally throws out the Geneva Convention, and many other human rights.

Wow....

unfuckingbelievable....

wow...

I am actually in shock you said that, I know my views are heavy toward the right, but you are so far left there you went all the way around and ended up in the middle of communism/dictatorship/evil empire...

wow...


this is no different then what we have done in Abu Gharib prison and what has been happening to the kidnapped people in Iraq.

so again how is my logic flawed??? Kerry is not responsible for the torturing of american pow's but yet you blame a speech at congress for it. the reasons they and we have tortured are obvious.

[System]

this is no different then what we have done in Abu Gharib prison and what has been happening to the kidnapped people in Iraq.

so again how is my logic flawed??? Kerry is not responsible for the torturing of american pow's but yet you blame a speech at congress for it. the reasons they and we have tortured are obvious.

ya, but we are prosectuing the few that were doing it at Abu Gharib. Not every soldier is an angel.

He is not responsible for torture just increased torture and giving the Commy bastards a weapon to use against our own soldiers.

[System]

sorry double post

[marco j]

ya, but we are prosectuing the few that were doing it at Abu Gharib. Not every soldier is an angel.

He is not responsible for torture just increased torture and giving the Commy bastards a weapon to use against our own soldiers.


he didn't increase the torturing i can assure you .


and sorry to rain on your right wing parade but the offenses at Abu Gharib and other facilities in Iraq were NOT limited to a few. i don't know where you are getting you info but it's wrong. and if you know anybody in the military they will tell you ...noting happens without someonelse knowing about it.

if you really believe it was a handful of people on the night crew who did this?!?!? then there is no hope for you.

[System]

he didn't increase the torturing i can assure you .


and sorry to rain on your right wing parade but the offenses at Abu Gharib and other facilities in Iraq were NOT limited to a few. i don't know where you are getting you info but it's wrong. and if you know anybody in the military they will tell you ...noting happens without someonelse knowing about it.

if you really believe it was a handful of people on the night crew who did this?!?!? then there is no hope for you.

ok,

2 things...

You can't assure me shit that went on in Viet Nam, where you there? No, have you read any first hand accounts of guys that were there? possibly but most likely not as much as I have.

secondly,

Where are you getting your info from, mine is a second lt. Intelligence area, US army, and a Capt. 101st airborne. Both proud to say school buddies of mine. I trust there word over the left wing media anyday.

[saygoodbye12]

well considering the reasons we were there . the viets had every intention of torturing the soldiers . again this is not because of Kerry. they may have used footage of his speech. which by they way sounds very unlikely. i can see it now ......you're in the middle of the jungle in a tiny bamboo cage and starving and a gaurd drags you into his commmanding officers room so he can play a video for you!?!? i don't by it. but hey i'm not gonna rule it out i'll roll with it.
Yes the POWs who were actually there...and tortured...are lying when they say their captors played Kerry's speech. You definitely know better. :thumbsup

them using tapes of this speech does not mean kerry did anything wrong. this actually proves a good point. we shouldn't have been there,they knew it ,we knew it ,everyone knew it. they merely used the tape to show the soldiers they had no reason to stand behind a country who puts such little value on it's own citizens.
Were they tortured BECAUSE of Kerry? No. Did what he say when he returned home make the lives of the POWs being held, harder? Possibly.

If your fellow brothers were being held as POWs, would you go around bad mouthing them and giving a laundry list of atrocities supposedly committed which can then be used against them?

[marco j]

[


Were they tortured BECAUSE of Kerry? No. Did what he say when he returned home make the lives of the POWs being held, harder? Possibly.

If your fellow brothers were being held as POWs, would you go around bad mouthing them and giving a laundry list of atrocities supposedly committed which can then be used against them?[/QUOTE]

.....and Kerry. don't forget he's in the same boat as them!

[QUOTE=saygoodbye12]Yes the POWs who were actually there...and tortured...are lying when they say their captors played Kerry's speech. You definitely know better. :


yeah i bet out in rural vietnam the vietkong leaders had projectors set up to
taunt american soldiers :rolleyes: please. the only people making these claims are people who are pissed off at Kerry.

You can't assure me shit that went on in Viet Nam, where you there? No, have you read any first hand accounts of guys that were there? possibly but most likely not as much as I have.

uh like i said my father hates Kerry for this same narrow minded view.

[saygoodbye12]

[
.....and Kerry. don't forget he's in the same boat as them!
How was Kerry, back in the United States, FREE in the same boat as people being held as Prisoners of War?

yeah i bet out in rural vietnam the vietkong leaders had projectors set up to taunt american soldiers :rolleyes: please. the only people making these claims are people who are pissed off at Kerry.

You can't assure me shit that went on in Viet Nam, where you there? No, have you read any first hand accounts of guys that were there? possibly but most likely not as much as I have.

uh like i said my father hates Kerry for this same narrow minded view.
Like I said, you certainly know better than those who were there. So of course, I'll take your word over theirs.

[cyberhound]

he didn't increase the torturing i can assure you .


and sorry to rain on your right wing parade but the offenses at Abu Gharib and other facilities in Iraq were NOT limited to a few. i don't know where you are getting you info but it's wrong. and if you know anybody in the military they will tell you ...noting happens without someonelse knowing about it.

if you really believe it was a handful of people on the night crew who did this?!?!? then there is no hope for you.
Let me ask you something. Do you think those who took part and those who condoned or ordered the things that went on in Abu Gharib should be punished?

[marco j]

Let me ask you something. Do you think those who took part and those who condoned or ordered the things that went on in Abu Gharib should be punished?



yes

starting at the highest person in the chain of command and work your way down to all involved.


saygoodbye:How was Kerry, back in the United States, FREE in the same boat as people being held as Prisoners of War?

because like cyber is pointing out he should be tryed for war crimes. duh.

[malonestar]

Michael Moore shills for Illuminati bankers

[The Difference]

Moore IS a LIAR and a PROPAGANDIST ! PERIOD.......!

[marco j]

you're right there isn't one shred of reality in F 9/11.

[Daevian]

you're right there isn't one shred of reality in F 9/11.
Actually I would have to say there's nothing BUT shreads of reality. Shreads slightly altered and twisted around into a certain someone's opinion.

[marco j]

i know i was being visicious.

[cyberhound]

yes

starting at the highest person in the chain of command and work your way down to all involved.


saygoodbye:How was Kerry, back in the United States, FREE in the same boat as people being held as Prisoners of War?

because like cyber is pointing out he should be tryed for war crimes. duh.
Great, then you agree that Sen. Kerry should be punished for his admitted war crimes.

[cyberhound]

i know i was being visicious.
Fecitious? Not picking either. Vicious or Fecitious?

[marco j]

Fecitious? Not picking either. Vicious or Fecitious?


my bad fecitious! (sarcastic) haha

[pkpro1]

I support Michael more, and Warehouse21, you are correct, his info is correct. People do not like they way that he delivers it, because if it is not FOX news, it is not important.

But that is MY opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own. :)
:thumbsup
cheers

[saygoodbye12]

:thumbsup
cheers yes, because if you don't like Michael Moore it must mean you're Fox's #1 fan!

[mdude85]

well, I don't think he is a liar, but he is a huge propogandist. You can present the truth in a way that it neglects the supporting view from the other side. Michael Moore does this all the time.