LOST (the tv show)

[sunshower]

Oh shit, hang on! You just reminded me, Ryan PM'd me like what had to be at least 5-6 weeks ago I think talking to me about the show, that you guys wanted to watch it, asking if I'd be able to help you out with some of the past seasons, and I said sure ok, I mean I don't remember exactly how it went but I thought I basically said let me know how I can help.. And I guess I figured he'd get back to me, and to be honestly I totally forgot about it :p
and he never messaged me back about it again.

but okay, well either way, important thing is you guys got to watch it all, now you're on board :):lol No worries. We're caught up which is great but it's also a little disappointing because now we have to wait for a whole week for a new episode! It's totally bogus.

[JorgeCavos]

Imagine how some of us must feel after waiting a week for each episode since the pilot. You end up fucking crazy with an avatar of an even crazier person.

[junior94]

Well I've experienced both sides. I didn't start watching THE SOPRANOS at all until they were already into the 6th season. So I buzzed thru the first 5 in just a couple months. Then I finished the finale probably I'd say no more than 2 months or so after it originally aired.

[JorgeCavos]

I also started the Sopranos late, I just never actually caught up. I do have Season 1 though, I should probably watch it haha.

Also- anyone here watch Heroes? I've only seen a couple episodes from Season 1 but watched the current episodes since September, and it's finally getting good again. I should probably watch season 1 of that too.

[Bartndrpleez]

I also started the Sopranos late, I just never actually caught up. I do have Season 1 though, I should probably watch it haha.

Also- anyone here watch Heroes? I've only seen a couple episodes from Season 1 but watched the current episodes since September, and it's finally getting good again. I should probably watch season 1 of that too.

Loved season 1.
Suffered through season 2.
Stopped watching after 5 episodes of season 3.

[JTRocks]

So, about 3 weeks ago when Ben killed Locke, everyone was on here wondering why?

So he basically answered it for us last night. He was just using it to put fear into the O6, telling them that they will eventually be killed by the same people

[Bartndrpleez]

So, about 3 weeks ago when Ben killed Locke, everyone was on here wondering why?

So he basically answered it for us last night. He was just using it to put fear into the O6, telling them that they will eventually be killed by the same people

Yep. And I believe he's also behind the woman who captured Sayid and put him on the plane to Guam. He knew Sayid's purpose all along and played an instrumental part in the assassination attempt on HIS OWN LIFE WHEN HE WAS YOUNG.

IN. SANE.

How could Sayid not see this right in front of him? He thinks its just coincidence knowing what he knows about Ben and kills him anyway? As if that's really going to stop him? HE'S BEN'S PAWN. ALWAYS HAS BEEN. ALWAYS WILL BE.

[il bacio dolce]

I think when Ben asked Sayid to kill all or some of those people, he knew he could use that against him eventually. He might not have known how specifically, but once he found out what flight, he was able to quickly find a way to get Sayid on it. That could have been the errand he had to run when he left the church. Totally unrelated to going after Penny. Ben is a mastermind.

[il bacio dolce]

So, about 3 weeks ago when Ben killed Locke, everyone was on here wondering why?

So he basically answered it for us last night. He was just using it to put fear into the O6, telling them that they will eventually be killed by the same people

Absolutely, because Ben knows Sayid has and will do anything to protect people he cares about.

[il bacio dolce]

Imagine how some of us must feel after waiting a week for each episode since the pilot. You end up fucking crazy with an avatar of an even crazier person.

:lol I'm in that group, obviously!

[junior94]

Quoting this text verbatim from a poster on another board...


So I was looking at some screenshots on the DarkUFO site and they had one of Sayid walking out of the building in Russia after killing the one dude. I had Russian for a couple years in high school, but only really remember how to sound out words. However, what was written above the door is derived from a name and an English word, making it incredibly easy to translate: Oldham Pharmaceuticals.

Oldham was the creepy Timothy Leary guy in this episode.

[il bacio dolce]

^ Crazy.

Another bit of interesting trivia: The $120 whiskey is "MacCutcheon" which has appeared before, namely in Flashes Before His Eyes, Widmore takes a shot of it. It showed up once or twice before that. It's always interesting what little details keep showing up throughout the seasons.

[JorgeCavos]

Yeah I noticed the MacCutcheon too, it's appeared a bunch of times. Widmore drank it, Charlie, Desmond, and Hurley got drunk one night on the island by drinking it, Jack had a bottle off-island when he started drinking and popping pills, and now Sayid was drinking it at the bar. Interesting. I want it.

[il bacio dolce]

Unfortunately, it's made up. :(

Geronimo Jackson however was not.

[junior94]

Unfortunately, it's made up. :(

Geronimo Jackson however was not.

Seriously? You totally sure about that? Funny thing is I was just about to say that I'd guess it's gotten roughly the same amount of appearances and mentions in the series as Geronimo Jackson.

[JorgeCavos]

I'm pretty sure Geronimo Jackson IS in fact made up. Search "The Donkeys" in google and listen to their myspace songs, specifically "Excelsior Lady", then listen to the free Geronimo Jackson tune on iTunes called "Dharma Lady" and tell me Geronimo Jackson is a real band.

[junior94]

I'm pretty sure Geronimo Jackson IS in fact made up. Search "The Donkeys" in google and listen to their myspace songs, specifically "Excelsior Lady", then listen to the free Geronimo Jackson tune on iTunes called "Dharma Lady" and tell me Geronimo Jackson is a real band.

Actually no, they're not. I was pretty confident in that already but Darleton confirmed in a recent podcast they were a very real band in the 70's, just an incredibly obscure one.

The thing that threw me earlier was the idea that MucCutcheon's was a fake scotch, I was asking if Cassie knew that for a fact.

[AlanA4]

Okay so one of my friends has been telling me all day that ben didn't get shot but instead god tasered???? She wont show me any proof but she's being really persistent about it and thats unlike her. Has anyone else heard this/provide any insight to what the hell she's talking about

[il bacio dolce]

Seriously? You totally sure about that? Funny thing is I was just about to say that I'd guess it's gotten roughly the same amount of appearances and mentions in the series as Geronimo Jackson.

Wait. You guys. I thought Geronimo Jackson was a real band from the seventies.

[il bacio dolce]

Okay so one of my friends has been telling me all day that ben didn't get shot but instead god tasered???? She wont show me any proof but she's being really persistent about it and thats unlike her. Has anyone else heard this/provide any insight to what the hell she's talking about

No it seems like he got shot in the stomach/bowel area so no serious harm done but no not tazered for sure :lol

I had read a spoiler. I wish I hadn't because it would have been surprising to see Sayid shoot Ben. Still I was curios how he'd play it, whether it would be obvious that Sayid had remorse for doing so.. He obviously did.

[dMATTb]

Okay so one of my friends has been telling me all day that ben didn't get shot but instead god tasered???? She wont show me any proof but she's being really persistent about it and thats unlike her. Has anyone else heard this/provide any insight to what the hell she's talking about

definitely shot. There's a hole in his chest.

you can kinda see it here: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:5x10_ByeByeBen.jpg

[water_into_wine]

definitely shot. There's a hole in his chest.

you can kinda see it here: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:5x10_ByeByeBen.jpg

Love that picture's title.

"Bye Bye Ben"...:lol

[il bacio dolce]

Many parellels in this episode... to the scene in season one where Sayid tortures Sawyer, obviously. To "One of them" the season two episode where Sayid interrogated Ben. And "playing house" is something Juliette said in this episode and Kate said in a season four episode, both to Sawyer.

[Koumoulas]

I freaked out when Sayid killed Ben. Loved it.

[Clem Haskins]

I freaked out when Sayid killed Ben. Loved it.

Word

[JorgeCavos]

I freaked out when Sayid killed Ben. Loved it.


Again- he's not dead, people. He obviously lived long enough to ruin their lives once they crashed in 2004, so how can he be dead? Whatever happened, happened.

[junior94]

Wait. You guys. I thought Geronimo Jackson was a real band from the seventies.

It is. See my post that's 2 above this one here of yours that I'm quoting.

Again- he's not dead, people. He obviously lived long enough to ruin their lives once they crashed in 2004, so how can he be dead? Whatever happened, happened.

What I'm thinking though is, while obviously he's not dead, however it is they portray it that his life gets saved (right now my guess is Juliet's directly involved) it's going to I bet require a big fat helping of suspension of disbelief, more so than usual with this show. Because Sayid's a professional killer, he knows where to put a bullet in the chest so it kills instantly.

[junior94]

While he didn't make the actual magazine's official list of top 20 villains of all time in the newest EW, they list the results of the simultaneous readers poll, and Benjamin Linus came in at #5 on their list.

[RJP2741]

It is. See my post that's 2 above this one here of yours that I'm quoting.



What I'm thinking though is, while obviously he's not dead, however it is they portray it that his life gets saved (right now my guess is Juliet's directly involved) it's going to I bet require a big fat helping of suspension of disbelief, more so than usual with this show. Because Sayid's a professional killer, he knows where to put a bullet in the chest so it kills instantly.


I'm kind of thinking this too. And I think it will either be Jack or Juliet, neither of which, to Dharma's knowledge, are doctors. So that could get interesting.

[junior94]

I'm kind of thinking this too. And I think it will either be Jack or Juliet, neither of which, to Dharma's knowledge, are doctors. So that could get interesting.

Well here's the thing. My initial guess was Jack (as much as I'd be bored with that option, but also it wouldn't seem to fit because in 2004 when Ben is first being told about all the 815'ers, it's news to him that Jack is a surgeon).

But on another board some folks brought up a detail I'd forgotten about that makes me guess Juliet now. In last year's ep "The Other Woman" when Juliet is having that first meeting with the blond Other we were meeting for the first time then, Goodwin's wife (I forget her name - if you watch RESCUE ME, she also plays Tommy Gavin's wife on there), she asks Juliet what she thinks of Ben, and she replies something like "He seems nice, very intense... we seem to get along well."

To which the other woman replies (and perhaps snidely) "Of course... you look just like her", eluding to the fact that Juliet looks just like some woman who obviously some of the Others know is a woman from Ben's past that means a lot to him. Could it be, this is the woman who saved his life when he was 12 years old... ? Well, she looks just like her because she is her :p
(and it would help further explain Ben's downright unhealthy obsession with Juliet).

[RJP2741]

Ahhhhh that's a good point about Jack and Juliet. Shit, I'm blanking on that woman's name now too, but I know who you mean. That would be a good way to incorporate that line, that seemed strange at the time.

[JorgeCavos]

Harper. and yeah, i mentioned that a page or two back, I think that's exactly how this is gonna end up workin out. Jack will refuse to help Ben, Juliet will save him, Ben will then remember and love her for it, then help get her recruited to the island 20-something years later.

[RJP2741]

Harper!!!! Thank you, that was beginning to bug me.

[il bacio dolce]

I was disappointed, the more I think about it. Not only because I read a spoiler and saw the end coming. Though I did wonder how he'd play it, but showing he had remorse for it didn't make it any better. I also knew we were going to find out why Sayid quit working for Ben, and was disappointed to find out, he didn't. Ben quit giving him names. Sayid wanted somebody else to go after. :shrug Bleh. Poor bastard.

This episode also just goes to show how evil Ben is. Hey, does anybody else realize that when Ben got on the plane, Ilena noticed him, and Sayid told her all about how evil he is. After they land, they are in the same time period. Can't wait for them to meet, I hope she kicks his ass too.

[junior94]

Ahhhhh that's a good point about Jack and Juliet. Shit, I'm blanking on that woman's name now too, but I know who you mean. That would be a good way to incorporate that line, that seemed strange at the time.

The exact dialog.

HARPER: So, Juliet, what do you think of Ben?

JULIET: He's great. Uh, very smart... and intense. Challenging. He's been really good to me.

HARPER: Of course he has. You look just like her.

JULIET: I'm sorry?


But Harper doesn't say anything else.

[il bacio dolce]

Ben...... Harper......

[jmanheels]

The exact dialog.

HARPER: So, Juliet, what do you think of Ben?

JULIET: He's great. Uh, very smart... and intense. Challenging. He's been really good to me.

HARPER: Of course he has. You look just like her.

JULIET: I'm sorry?


But Harper doesn't say anything else.

This would also make sense if older Ben was aware of the time traveling nature of the Island, leading him to believe that he had to make sure Juliet was able to go back to save himself.

However, as a counterargument, I take Harper's comment to possibly refer to Ben's childhood friend, Annie, who he may still harbor remorse for killing in the Purge.

[JorgeCavos]

I'm still convinced Geronimo Jackson is fake. Sure the producers will tell you whatever they want, it doesn't mean its true- but they just released a free Geronimo Jackson tune on iTunes, and it's NOT GERONIMO JACKSON

http://www.myspace.com/thedonkeys

Click that link and listen to the first song in comparison to "Dharma Lady" and tell me Geronimo Jackson's real.

[il bacio dolce]

:lol

Aha. Wednesday is April 1st. Ben's not dead, it was an April Fool's joke. :rolleyes
Plus the episode descriptioon zap2it says as much.

[junior94]

:lol

Aha. Wednesday is April 1st. Ben's not dead, it was an April Fool's joke. :rolleyes
Plus the episode descriptioon zap2it says as much.

Well, no offense but, I don't need for there to be an april Fools joke to be involved to know that Ben's not really dead, no matter what we saw. Again, whatever way they save his life at the last minute, it'll require A LOT of suspension of disbelief, but of course he's not dead. Think about it -- if Sayid really did kill young Ben right there, well then that pretty much negates virtually everything we've seen from season 2 onward (if not even earlier), because if Ben wasn't there in the "future" (2004), NONE of that stuff could've happened the way that it did, the way it was shown to us.
I highly doubt they'd go and take that line now with a season and a half left.

[JorgeCavos]

I don't even see how Ben dying could be fathomable at this point. Between the jumps from "30 years later" to "30 years earlier" and seeing Ben on the island, he's not just going to disappear from in front of everyone's eyes.

[RJP2741]

I think it will require the casual viewers a lot of suspension of disbelief, but for those that follow the show closely, and get the time travel principles, it won't be as hard. Sure, Ben will probably be saved in some miraculous way, but we all know it's going to happen, because we get that if Ben died...well...he wouldn't be alive 40 years later.

[il bacio dolce]

Dude I KNOW he doesn't die. But you're right it is no laughing matter. :p

[il bacio dolce]

Can anyone think of an instance, besides when his daughter was killed, that Ben showed remorse for anything? I always wondered whether he was truly the bad guy or not. If they wanted us to think he was a good guy, they'd at least show that side of him from time to time. They've shown time after time that Sayid doesn't like what he does. In contrast, Ben seems to lack a conscience. If they didn't play off eachother, it wouldn't be clear where either was coming from. Someone in the televisionwithpity forum suggests that he is the "sin eater", he just does those things so other people don't have to, or to protect his friends.

[il bacio dolce]

Why wasn't Matthew Abaddon on Ben's list? I'm assuming it was Ben who killed him, but not before Ben says they've taken care of everyone in Widmore.Org that posed a threat. No way Ben doesn't know who Abaddon is, even at that point. I don't think any of those people had crap to do with Widmore.

[il bacio dolce]

From another board. I totally agree with this.

"I'm guessing that the people Sayid killed were just friends and business associates of Widmore’s, but not involved in his search for the island or his war with Ben. The fact that Ilana was only hired by Avellino’s family shows that there was no central organization on the part of Widmore’s associates, while the Russian’s attempt to bribe Sayid tells me they didn’t even know why they were being targeted. Essentially it was a revenge scenario on Ben’s part to make Widmore feel as lonely and isolated as he was after he left the island. Or, you know, it might’ve been if they actually explained anything."

[junior94]

Why wasn't Matthew Abaddon on Ben's list? I'm assuming it was Ben who killed him, but not before Ben says they've taken care of everyone in Widmore.Org that posed a threat. No way Ben doesn't know who Abaddon is, even at that point. I don't think any of those people had crap to do with Widmore.

Actually now I think about it, with how manipulative that Sayid already knows Ben is just even strictly from his time on the island, I'm surprised Sayid wouldn't have asked Ben for definitive proof of how these people where a thread to "his friends" when Ben initially approached him with the idea of taking them all out.

[il bacio dolce]

That seems like a plot hole to me, but usually these things end up being explained.

I dunno... Sayid would have killed Ana Lucia if nobody had stepped in. There was no body to step in his way when he wanted to go after Nadia's killer, in fact, he was being encouraged. Maybe revenge for Nadia's death was all the motivation he needed.

They have shot more Sayid back story which might garner some sympathy votes for him they will get in to how Nadia died. And it should be AWFUL to watch too because they show just how happy they were together

[JTRocks]

theres some crazy spoilers out there and i'm pretty sure they reveal who jacob is or something. I saw them on another message board but refused to even look at that shit.

[il bacio dolce]

:lol

[hbktonyb]

I think Ben hired Sayid has his bounty hunter to make sure Sayid remembers that his purpose in life is to be a killer. Then, Ben orchestrated the whole guam trip for Sayid, to make sure he was on that plane, so that Sayid would go back in time and try to kill 11 year old Ben

[il bacio dolce]

I think Ben hired Sayid has his bounty hunter to make sure Sayid remembers that his purpose in life is to be a killer. Then, Ben orchestrated the whole guam trip for Sayid, to make sure he was on that plane, so that Sayid would go back in time and try to kill 11 year old Ben

I've heard this idea echoed again and again as I've read reviews and fan commentary. Ben basically had Sayid hunting down all of Widmore's golf buddies just to plant the seed of "kill to protect your friends" deep in Sayid's mind. The whole episode in fact (seemed like filler to me but) was geared towards showing us how Sayid became capable of killing so easily. I mean, I get it, not that I like it. :shrug

[il bacio dolce]

Good lord. It never ceases to amaze me what some Lost fans can pick up that I would never have thought of on my own. Whatever part of the brain they're using for that, mine is underdeveloped. :lol

Here's another brilliant point that supports the theory of Ben brainwashing Sayid: If Ben cares so much why doesn't he kill the man outside Santa Rosa, like, with the same gun he uses to kill Abaddon, for example? Instead he puts on a suit and flies to Santo Domingo to try to convince Sayid to fly all the way back to California. Obviously Ben isn't concerned that in the time it takes to accomplish that, something could have happened to Hurley. But then, nothing probably would have happened.

[joepsu0985]

^ Crazy.

Another bit of interesting trivia: The $120 whiskey is "MacCutcheon" which has appeared before, namely in Flashes Before His Eyes, Widmore takes a shot of it. It showed up once or twice before that. It's always interesting what little details keep showing up throughout the seasons.

MacCutcheon was first introduced when Desmond was in Widmore's office and Widmore tells him that he isn't worth drinking it. Then Sawyer had it from the plane. Locke's father in one episode had it. The one where they showed Locke becomming paralyzed. The Man From Tallahasee.

[junior94]

For what it's worth... Darlton said straight up in the one recent video podcast that Geronimo Jackson was a very real band, from the 70's, just happened to be quite obscure. Well, the more I've looked into it since, me thinks this may just be a little elongated hoax they're pulling on us... I'm inclined to think at this point the band is entirely a Darlton invention for the sake of the series. ;)

[JorgeCavos]

For what it's worth... Darlton said straight up in the one recent video podcast that Geronimo Jackson was a very real band, from the 70's, just happened to be quite obscure. Well, the more I've looked into it since, me thinks this may just be a little elongated hoax they're pulling on us... I'm inclined to think at this point the band is entirely a Darlton invention for the sake of the series. ;)

That's what I've been saying :lol

Just because they say it's real it doesn't mean that it is.

[il bacio dolce]

MacCutcheon was first introduced when Desmond was in Widmore's office and Widmore tells him that he isn't worth drinking it. Then Sawyer had it from the plane. Locke's father in one episode had it. The one where they showed Locke becomming paralyzed. The Man From Tallahasee.

Don't forget Desmond, Hurley and Charlie getting drunk on the beach. :lol I don't know which epsode now.

[il bacio dolce]

Don't forget Desmond, Hurley and Charlie getting drunk on the beach. :lol I don't know which epsode now.

I can see my post if I go in to the thread, but in the forum index it doesn't show me as most recent post... Does everyone else see it? Weird.

[junior94]

Don't forget Desmond, Hurley and Charlie getting drunk on the beach. :lol I don't know which epsode now.

That was the same episode as Widmore telling Des in his office he wasn't worth of drinking it. "Flashes Before Your Eyes".

[JorgeCavos]

Yup. Lostpedia is your friend.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/MacCutcheon_whisky

[Peregrine]

anyone know where I can watch the first half of the current season (particularly episodes 1-6, which no longer exist on abc.com or hulu for some reason)?

[jguinan101]

It just seems so crazy that Ben had to know all this time that some how his plan to get everyone back had to work because he had to know Sayid was always meant to go back in time to shoot him as a child. The whole time travel thing and the loop of it all just gets so perplexing after a few beers ;)

[dh4645]

finally watched last weeks episode last night. i was too busy playing killzone 2 on my ps3 all last week to be in the top 1% of players for the week.

anyway...i felt the episode was pretty boring up until the part were sayid shot ben.
but basically i thought it was a weak episode compared to all the rest this season.

[RJP2741]

It just seems so crazy that Ben had to know all this time that some how his plan to get everyone back had to work because he had to know Sayid was always meant to go back in time to shoot him as a child. The whole time travel thing and the loop of it all just gets so perplexing after a few beers ;)


And maybe it all comes into focus after a few more. :lol

[dh4645]

For what it's worth... Darlton said straight up in the one recent video podcast that Geronimo Jackson was a very real band, from the 70's, just happened to be quite obscure. Well, the more I've looked into it since, me thinks this may just be a little elongated hoax they're pulling on us... I'm inclined to think at this point the band is entirely a Darlton invention for the sake of the series. ;)

it was probably his garage band as a kid...no wonder its obscure.
:)

[dh4645]

i keep thinking about ben meeting the losties for the first time (well the first time for the losties) where they lock him up.

ben would know and remember sayid shot him when he was a kid...because for ben it would have happened, but not for sayid.

it's like each person has their own past, present and future and it's not on the same timeline as anybody else.
every individual has their own timeline

[Peregrine]

so . . . where can I watch episodes 1-6 of season 5?

[junior94]

so . . . where can I watch episodes 1-6 of season 5?

Wow they're really off of ABC.com already? damn. Well if you're familiar with bit torrenting, they're easy enough to download that way.

Give a try on youtube, it seems more and more shows are having full episodes put up in chunks (illegally of course, it goes against copyright, but so do probably at least 50% of ALL the videos on youtube), like even though I don't need to watch "House" that way, I just discovered this morning there are full episodes up in like 4-5 10:00 chunks.

[il bacio dolce]

They're pulling episodes off the site really quick for some reason. Almost all of the first four seasons are still up though.
Other shows (Grey's) are the same way. I had to catch up on things after a month without cable.

[il bacio dolce]

i keep thinking about ben meeting the losties for the first time (well the first time for the losties) where they lock him up.

ben would know and remember sayid shot him when he was a kid...because for ben it would have happened, but not for sayid.

it's like each person has their own past, present and future and it's not on the same timeline as anybody else.
every individual has their own timeline

I should go back to the first few episodes with Benry and see if he hints to knowing them better than they know him... I don't know if the writers knew where they were going with him though.

Sayid and Ben meet in "One of them". That's also the first thing young Ben says to Sayid: "Are you one of them?"

[tankdan]

Anyone catch "Young Ben" on WBCN 104.1 this morning here in Boston?

The DJ's kept trying to trick him into revealing something, like if Young Ben is dead, if he'll be in more episodes, or if someone else dies. Young Ben said that he is a big fan of the show and only read his lines on the script and tried to keep himself spoiler free. My favorite:

DJ: "So are you going to be around for a few more episodes?"
Young Ben: "Yeh, I'll be lying on the ground the next two episodes."

Dan

[junior94]

I should go back to the first few episodes with Benry and see if he hints to knowing them better than they know him... I don't know if the writers knew where they were going with him though.

I don't see how they possibly could've been, not when Michael Emerson was originally contracted for just a 3 episode stint, which has been well documented by now. Yea, they always knew "Henry Gale" was going to be an Other, but certainly hadn't decided already that he'd be as high level of one as he turned out to be.

[il bacio dolce]

That's what I thought I'd heard Emerson say... He thought he was more or less temporary.

He ends up making the whole show. :lol

[RJP2741]

Lost day!! :bounce:multi:bounce

I wonder it if it'll be more of a mind fuck than usual since it's also April fools day.

[scrock25]

Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindleoff are the writers for tonights episode.

[dh4645]

Lost day!! :bounce:multi:bounce

I wonder it if it'll be more of a mind fuck than usual since it's also April fools day.

i hope so

[JTRocks]

Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindleoff are the writers for tonights episode.

does that usually mean its a big time episode?

[Bartndrpleez]

So f'ing pumped for tonight's episode. Doc Jensen's articles get me jacked up every Wednesday. Its so awesome to see all the possible influences these writers/producers have for the ideas behind the show.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20269099,00.html

[Joruus]

does that usually mean its a big time episode?

When Darlton steps down from their mighty "showrunner" chairs and write an episode, very big things happen.

[il bacio dolce]

Does anyone know what time the episodes are posted on ABC? I might have ot wait til I get home from work.

[tosssweep]

Does anyone know what time the episodes are posted on ABC? I might have ot wait til I get home from work.

Something like 2 or 3am tomorrow. Maybe they are faster now but I always have to watch on Thursdays nights since I work late on Lost Day. You might even find a bit torrent within a hour of the show...

[il bacio dolce]

When Darlton steps down from their mighty "showrunner" chairs and write an episode, very big things happen.

What other episodes are that way?

[junior94]

What other episodes are that way?

You can get that info (and many other details) on every single ep of the series from here:

http://www.epguides.com/Lost/

[il bacio dolce]

You can get that info (and many other details) on every single ep of the series from here:

http://www.epguides.com/Lost/

Cool.

I also remembered Lostpedia. :lol It's amazing how many Lost sites and blogs there are out there.

[vikes989]

LOST!

:multi

[junior94]

Well, if it did indeed "always happen this way", I'll be very curious to see just how it is that the 70's version of the Losties wind up as the 04 version of them crashing onto the island and the same age... unless it's that somewhere there's middle-aged versions of them that have been elsewhere on the island the entire time.

[dh4645]

Well, if it did indeed "always happen this way", I'll be very curious to see just how it is that the 70's version of the Losties wind up as the 04 version of them crashing onto the island and the same age... unless it's that somewhere there's middle-aged versions of them that have been elsewhere on the island the entire time.

i would think the current losties in the 70's (who are 3 yrs older than when they were in 2004/2007) get killed, or somehow get back to everyone else's present time and then live their lives and die of old age.

[water_into_wine]

Well, if it did indeed "always happen this way", I'll be very curious to see just how it is that the 70's version of the Losties wind up as the 04 version of them crashing onto the island and the same age... unless it's that somewhere there's middle-aged versions of them that have been elsewhere on the island the entire time.

Still not convinced that they make it back to present time huh?

I mean it makes so much more sense that way and would solve all the confusion you have about this.

[junior94]

Still not convinced that they make it back to present time huh?

I mean it makes so much more sense that way and would solve all the confusion you have about this.

Please, you telling me that you're convinced about ANYTHING with this show right now? With over 17 eps to go we've got plenty of mindfucks waiting for us :p

[dh4645]

Please, you telling me that you're convinced about ANYTHING with this show right now? With over 17 eps to go we've got plenty of mindfucks waiting for us :p

yeah, hopefully

[water_into_wine]

Please, you telling me that you're convinced about ANYTHING with this show right now? With over 17 eps to go we've got plenty of mindfucks waiting for us :p

:lol

Fair enough. I guess still not convinced with the theory?

I guess to me it seems more logical then yours. But opinions are opinions and I actually always like to hear yours because they are always well-thought out.

[RJP2741]

:lol

Fair enough. I guess still not convinced with the theory?

I guess to me it seems more logical then yours. But opinions are opinions and I actually always like to hear yours because they are always well-thought out.


I'm with you. I'd bet money they get back to present time.

[greyst1crash]

Shocker... :rolleyes

[greyst1crash]

Hahahahahaha well that'll be a twist I didn't see coming. Lol

[Talula62]

DUDE, Darlton are such little jerks -- now they're having Hurley mock us! :lol :lol :lol

[RJP2741]

DUDE, Darlton are such little jerks -- now they're having Hurley mock us! :lol :lol :lol


it's great! They always have Hurley take on the voice of the audience. I love it!!

[DMBZeppelin]

Man this episode is off to a good start. I like how they're working on their own time travel theories.

[greyst1crash]

Man this episode is off to a good start. I like how they're working on their own time travel theories.

:thumbsup I like how they're basically trying to question and explain everything we have for the entire season. Haha

[greyst1crash]

Hahahahahaha 'so what am I going to say next?" I love Hurley!


Edit: Score one for Hurley!!! He's thinking the same damn thing we are!

[Talula62]

:lol :lol :lol YEAH, you HADN'T thought of that, had you Miles?! :lol

[RJP2741]

Hurley is awesome.

[clayj41]

Hahahahahaha 'so what am I going to say next?" I love Hurley!


Edit: Score one for Hurley!!! He's thinking the same damn thing we are!

:thumbsup Great scene.

[greyst1crash]

:lol :lol :lol YEAH, you HADN'T thought of that, had you Miles?! :lol

:thumbsup Where would we be without Hurley!?

[Clem Haskins]

Long live Hugo!

[weller3377]

Hahahahahaha 'so what am I going to say next?" I love Hurley!


Edit: Score one for Hurley!!! He's thinking the same damn thing we are!

No kidding...That is exactly what i was coming in here to say. :lol

[DMBZeppelin]

I'm pretty certain without a doubt Ben knew Sayid in the present time when he was tortured. I'd wager that's how the others got a lot of info on them in the first place with all of them part of Dharma. My girlfriend brought up a good point. Remember how Ben always viewed Juliet as his? Well it's probably because how much she took care of him after he was shot.

[davedmb41]

:thumbsup good point.
I'm pretty certain without a doubt Ben knew Sayid in the present time when he was tortured. I'd wager that's how the others got a lot of info on them in the first place with all of them part of Dharma. My girlfriend brought up a good point. Remember how Ben always viewed Juliet as his? Well it's probably because how much she took care of him after he was shot.

[greyst1crash]

Ummmmmmmmm no one see's kate driving away?!?

Edit: Well at least someone noticed. Lol, but my question is why the hell does Kate care so much about a psychotic murderer? Let the kid die and have 'course correction' or whatever sort it out.

[clayj41]

Thought that was gonna be Claire for a bit. I would have freaked!!! :lol

[sully51]

I think it was Claire..
Older Claire, had a resemblance thats for sure

[RJP2741]

Thought that was gonna be Claire for a bit. I would have freaked!!! :lol


I almost lost(pun) it, I thought it was her for sure.

[Clem Haskins]

I'm pretty certain without a doubt Ben knew Sayid in the present time when he was tortured. I'd wager that's how the others got a lot of info on them in the first place with all of them part of Dharma. My girlfriend brought up a good point. Remember how Ben always viewed Juliet as his? Well it's probably because how much she took care of him after he was shot.

I like all of the things you said.

[davedmb41]

Thought that was gonna be Claire for a bit. I would have freaked!!! :lol

I know it! I'm not sure if just wanted us to think it was her or what!

[DMBZeppelin]

This episode is going by fast, but it's been a good one. Interesting they didn't go the safe route of Jack saving Ben, and I wonder what the others will do.

[greyst1crash]

And I wonder what the others will do.

Likewise.

After the episode is over, I think I'm going to go back and listen better to how Miles tried to explain their time travel and why they don't remember things that supposedly already happened. I basically want to get the different theories down as it seems those will be challenged.

[davedmb41]

oh wowzers.

double wowzers.!

[clayj41]

So that explains Ben not recognizing Sayid. With that, I think Miles' explanation was spot on.

[greyst1crash]

oh wowzers.

Wowzers is right!!!!

Quality ending right there....

[clayj41]

"Welcome back to the land of the living."


Awesome!!! :hump

[weller3377]

Great little ending there!!!

[sully51]

Is it the general consensus that John and Ben and the plane crash are in a different time period from Jack and Kate and Hurley? (Present Day)

[Talula62]

Is it the general consensus that John and Ben and the plane crash are in a different time period from Jack and Kate and Hurley? (Present Day)I'd say that's the consensus, yeah.

[DMBZeppelin]

Likewise.

After the episode is over, I think I'm going to go back and listen better to how Miles tried to explain their time travel and why they don't remember things that supposedly already happened. I basically want to get the different theories down as it seems those will be challenged.
Miles was 100% dead on, and that's what Farraday has said since the beginning. Whatever happened happened. Ben became the Ben we all knew in present day because Jack refused to perform surgery on him. Had he done that. He'd of been saved, and never gone to the temple. The young nice Ben we all knew would have continued to live on, and not have committed the purge.

Like Miles said. It always happened that way.

So that explains Ben not recognizing Sayid. With that, I think Miles' explanation was spot on.
Even if he did recongize him. I'm sure he'd have learned of the time traveling aspect. Ben would never give away that he knew Sayid. He's someone who you can rarely tell if he's surprised ect.

If he recognized everyone he'd act like he didn't and use all his knowledge of them against them.

[water_into_wine]

I LOVE how they explained everything....I was laughing my ass off because I felt like Hurley was me.

A great episode overall. They filled a lot in.

I can't wait until next week. Looks like the episode of the season.

Edit: I still want them to explain why our Losties went to 1977 and everyone else including Sun didn't. Is it because they didn't need to go back?

[clayj41]

Even if he did recongize him. I'm sure he'd have learned of the time traveling aspect. Ben would never give away that he knew Sayid. He's someone who you can rarely tell if he's surprised ect.

If he recognized everyone he'd act like he didn't and use all his knowledge of them against them.

Maybe so and if we weren't so well informed things would be different, but we all know that Ben was supposed to be a shortlived character. While they could have made it work, it was never planned.

[greyst1crash]

Miles was 100% dead on, and that's what Farraday has said since the beginning. Whatever happened happened. Ben became the Ben we all knew in present day because Jack refused to perform surgery on him. Had he done that. He'd of been saved, and never gone to the temple. The young nice Ben we all knew would have continued to live on, and not have committed the purge.

Like Miles said. It always happened that way.


Thanks you for explaining it!!! The last question that Miles kinda answered that I forgot, was why is it that the lostees don't remember the things that have already happened if they happened that way? After that, I think I got the general theory and consensus.

[dowling25]

So Jack is the reason that Ben turns out to be such a bad guy. He thinks he is doing the right thing, but actually he fucks everything up because of his decision to not save him. However, in a sense I feel that the island gave Jack another chance to save Ben in the future time when he saved him from the tumor. I am wondering how they all get off the island again eventually...

[Talula62]

:lol Here is Television Without Pity's April Fools episode promo summary:
With Christian and Frank and DharmaGoogle's help, Sun discovers the fate of the rest of Losties: Miles mouths off to Juliet one too many times with unfortunate consequences; Daniel creates the Lamppost and becomes his own father; Sawyer and Jack get involved in an underground Dharma cage-fighting match with polar bears; Sayid and Kate have a tragic incident in the Looking Glass with a genetically engineered shark; Ben and Locke are swallowed by Smokey; Jin, Hurley and Claire manage to return to 2007 to help Sun raise Aaron and Ji Yeon into normal, slightly kick-ass individuals who fear being on planes and near the water; Desmond and Penny live happily ever after.

[clayj41]

With Christian and Frank and DharmaGoogle's help, Sun discovers the fate of the rest of Losties: Miles mouths off to Juliet one too many times with unfortunate consequences; Daniel creates the Lamppost and becomes his own father; Sawyer and Jack get involved in an underground Dharma cage-fighting match with polar bears; Sayid and Kate have a tragic incident in the Looking Glass with a genetically engineered shark; Ben and Locke are swallowed by Smokey; Jin, Hurley and Claire manage to return to 2007 to help Sun raise Aaron and Ji Yeon into normal, slightly kick-ass individuals who fear being on planes and near the water; Desmond and Penny live happily ever after.

The bolded literally made me laugh out loud. :lol

[tarheel997]

another flawless episode, i'd say

[Dave G]

Thanks you for explaining it!!! The last question that Miles kinda answered that I forgot, was why is it that the lostees don't remember the things that have already happened if they happened that way? After that, I think I got the general theory and consensus.

I believe that for them it's happening for the first time. They are in their present that just so happens to be in Ben's past

[clayj41]

I believe that for them it's happening for the first time. They are in their present that just so happens to be in Ben's past

:thumbsup

[greyst1crash]

I believe that for them it's happening for the first time. They are in their present that just so happens to be in Ben's past


Soooo....uhhhhh....yeah....I get it. Lol, usually it takes a little bit for what happens on the show to sink in. But thanks for explaining it.

[DoDaFoo]

I would like to thank Miles (and the writers) for explaining what I have been saying since the beginning about time travel. I feel better now. I knew I was right, but it's nice to have it over with now.

[greyst1crash]

I would like to thank Miles (and the writers) for explaining what I have been saying since the beginning about time travel. I feel better now. I knew I was right, but it's nice to have it over with now.

Would you care to briefly summarize what you've been saying? I'm finally getting a grip on this time travel laws/theories stuff.

[DoDaFoo]

I've been saying that everything that happened, happened. They are not changing anything by being in the past. Even though they're experiencing things for the first time, this stuff already happened. Ben wasnt going to die because he's alive in 2007. I dont feel like explaining it all again, but you can backread.

[JorgeCavos]

Basically, "whatever happened, happened" (which happens to be the title of the episode)

Them being in the 70s always happened. They don't remember what happened in the 70s because they didn't go there yet, it was in their future. Ben's the only one that has potential to remember them because he grew up there and him getting shot by Sayid always happened. And it seems like he joined the others because Sawyer gave him to them.

[greyst1crash]

Basically, "whatever happened, happened" (which happens to be the title of the episode)

Them being in the 70s always happened. They don't remember what happened in the 70s because they didn't go there yet, it was in their future. Ben's the only one that has potential to remember them because he grew up there and him getting shot by Sayid always happened. And it seems like he joined the others because Sawyer gave him to them.

Thank you. Very much appreciated ~

[AlanA4]

Ben has to come back to the dharma though because he kills his dad. So I guess richard saves him and then tells him to go back and finish them off. Or whoever Ben and Richard are going to see comes up with the plans and tells him to do that. Either way the sawyer is screwed because he is gonna get called out as soon as he gets back and ben goes missing. I'm curious how they are going to have ben explain it.

[JorgeCavos]

I agree. The Purge doesn't happen for sometime, but this seems to lay the foundation for how Ben becomes a part of the Others and I'm sure sometime soonafter Ben and the rest of the Others will plan the Purge and Ben's whole rest of the time in Dharma will be undercover

[DMBZeppelin]

Maybe so and if we weren't so well informed things would be different, but we all know that Ben was supposed to be a shortlived character. While they could have made it work, it was never planned.
The bulk of the show has been laid out. As in from season 1 they knew about turning the wheel and moving the island. So while things change due to actors. Like people wanting off the show. Regardless if they were going to write it that way or not, they wrote it so that it was always suppose to happen.

Thanks you for explaining it!!! The last question that Miles kinda answered that I forgot, was why is it that the lostees don't remember the things that have already happened if they happened that way? After that, I think I got the general theory and consensus.
You can't think of time as like. They traveled back into the 1970's, and they are now interacting and changing what happened before. When 1970's was present day time. All these guys were there. Like for instance Ethan. He was in the show in season 1-3 before time travel. How? Because Sawyer was ALWAYS going to go back in time and save him mom.

They don't remember it because it hasn't happened to them yet. Do you know what you ate for breakfeast tomorrow morning? Nope. Now what if I transported you to 1980. Would you know then? Nope. Because it's still your present.

[Bartndrpleez]

The bulk of the show has been laid out. As in from season 1 they knew about turning the wheel and moving the island. So while things change due to actors. Like people wanting off the show. Regardless if they were going to write it that way or not, they wrote it so that it was always suppose to happen.


You can't think of time as like. They traveled back into the 1970's, and they are now interacting and changing what happened before. When 1970's was present day time. All these guys were there. Like for instance Ethan. He was in the show in season 1-3 before time travel. How? Because Sawyer was ALWAYS going to go back in time and save him mom.

They don't remember it because it hasn't happened to them yet. Do you know what you ate for breakfeast tomorrow morning? Nope. Now what if I transported you to 1980. Would you know then? Nope. Because it's still your present.

This show makes my brain look like your avatar.

[JorgeCavos]

This show makes my brain look like your avatar.

Samesies :lol

I just downloaded that new Wolverine movie- Charlie's in it!

[greyst1crash]

The bulk of the show has been laid out. As in from season 1 they knew about turning the wheel and moving the island. So while things change due to actors. Like people wanting off the show. Regardless if they were going to write it that way or not, they wrote it so that it was always suppose to happen.


You can't think of time as like. They traveled back into the 1970's, and they are now interacting and changing what happened before. When 1970's was present day time. All these guys were there. Like for instance Ethan. He was in the show in season 1-3 before time travel. How? Because Sawyer was ALWAYS going to go back in time and save him mom.

They don't remember it because it hasn't happened to them yet. Do you know what you ate for breakfeast tomorrow morning? Nope. Now what if I transported you to 1980. Would you know then? Nope. Because it's still your present.

Well now that's perfect. Thanks again :thumbsup

[hbktonyb]

So Jack fucked up. If he would have saved him, Ben would have never gone to richard, and the purge would probably never happen. Ben gets saved by Sawyer and Kate, he becomes the leader, forgets everything that happened. Guess thats why he thinks he was born on the island? Maybe he didn't lie about that afterall.

[UNLTrpt]

Ok so I think I missed a tiny part of the episode in the middle.

Kate talks to Juliette. Juliette tells Kate that he's going to die and that the Others can save him. BOOM commercial

In the middle of the commercial break, our recording went funky.

When it came back Juliette was in the bathroom with Jack (in his towel) and she was giving him crap for not saving Ben...did anything happen before that or was that the first scene after the commercial break?

[Clem Haskins]

DMBZeppelin= MVP of the night.

[JorgeCavos]

Ok so I think I missed a tiny part of the episode in the middle.

Kate talks to Juliette. Juliette tells Kate that he's going to die and that the Others can save him. BOOM commercial

In the middle of the commercial break, our recording went funky.

When it came back Juliette was in the bathroom with Jack (in his towel) and she was giving him crap for not saving Ben...did anything happen before that or was that the first scene after the commercial break?

I'm pretty sure she just walked into the house and told Miles and Hurley to scram so she could talk to Jack.

[clayj41]

The bulk of the show has been laid out. As in from season 1 they knew about turning the wheel and moving the island. So while things change due to actors. Like people wanting off the show. Regardless if they were going to write it that way or not, they wrote it so that it was always suppose to happen.

I agree with you about everything but the Ben thing. When they filmed the scenes where Sayid tortured/questioned him, I really don't think they knew at the time that Sayid was going to shoot him in the past. As brilliant as they are though, they found a quick way to fix it.



Anyways, for anyone still having trouble with the time travel/memories aspect of the show, from the outset of this season I've just used numbers to keep things straight. Let's say when 815 crashed on the island, Hurley was 27 years old (just a number I chose, I'm not sure how old the character is). Three years later, after having found a way off the island, he comes back and gets sucked into 1977. At the time, he is 30 years old. His 27 year old self would not have any memories of something that doesn't happen to him until he is 30. I don't know if this helps anyone, but this is the way I have always looked at it.

[clayj41]

So Jack fucked up. If he would have saved him, Ben would have never gone to richard, and the purge would probably never happen. Ben gets saved by Sawyer and Kate, he becomes the leader, forgets everything that happened. Guess thats why he thinks he was born on the island? Maybe he didn't lie about that afterall.

Did he fuck up or is he fulfilling the destiny the island set out for him? ;)

[UNLTrpt]

Jack is becoming a real asshole now.

[clayj41]

Jack is becoming a real asshole now.

He's embracing his destiny. If that leads to him becoming an asshole then so be it.

[JorgeCavos]

People are talking shit on Jack, was I the only one happy as hell to hear him acknowledging that he was supposed to be on the island to fulfill his destiny and he doesn't know what that purpose is yet? HE'S A BELIEVER NOW, PEOPLE! It only took 4 and a half seasons, but Jack's finally embracing what we've been waiting the whole series for!

[clayj41]

People are talking shit on Jack, was I the only one happy as hell to hear him acknowledging that he was supposed to be on the island to fulfill his destiny and he doesn't know what that purpose is yet? HE'S A BELIEVER NOW, PEOPLE! It only took 4 and a half seasons, but Jack's finally embracing what we've been waiting the whole series for!

:thumbsup I love it.

[TwoStep2888]

Jack is becoming a real asshole now.

You can only say this if you believe John Locke has been a "real asshole" since Season 1.

People are talking shit on Jack, was I the only one happy as hell to hear him acknowledging that he was supposed to be on the island to fulfill his destiny and he doesn't know what that purpose is yet? HE'S A BELIEVER NOW, PEOPLE! It only took 4 and a half seasons, but Jack's finally embracing what we've been waiting the whole series for!

Exactly! :thumbsup

Our little Man Of Science has finally transitioned into a Man Of Faith, like Locke has been from the beginning. This is called character development, and it is a very, very good thing.

[DoDaFoo]

People are talking shit on Jack, was I the only one happy as hell to hear him acknowledging that he was supposed to be on the island to fulfill his destiny and he doesn't know what that purpose is yet? HE'S A BELIEVER NOW, PEOPLE! It only took 4 and a half seasons, but Jack's finally embracing what we've been waiting the whole series for!

I have been very anti-Jack for awhile now, but I'm starting to like him more again because he is indeed becoming a believer and embracing his destiny. Maybe that is Locke's purpose is the grand scheme of things, making Jack embrace his destiny in regards to the island (although I think Locke has more to do than just that still).

[UNLTrpt]

Well this goes back for the last two episodes. He got absolutely pwned by Sawyer when he went into his house and Sawyer told him off. And then he acted like a little baby today when asked to do the surgery. nope. not going to do it.

[TwoStep2888]

Well this goes back for the last two episodes. He got absolutely pwned by Sawyer when he went into his house and Sawyer told him off. And then he acted like a little baby today when asked to do the surgery. nope. not going to do it.

The bolded was just Sawyer being cool.

The refusal to do the surgery, however, was a sign of him embracing the "destiny" ideology Locke's been preaching since the beginning of the show. He believed that, if the island wanted Little Ben to live, it would do so with or without his involvement. He has evolved into a man of faith, like Locke or Eko, and is finally accepting the idea of his destiny on the island.

[clayj41]

I have been very anti-Jack for awhile now, but I'm starting to like him more again because he is indeed becoming a believer and embracing his destiny. Maybe that is Locke's purpose is the grand scheme of things, making Jack embrace his destiny in regards to the island (although I think Locke has more to do than just that still).

Locke is definitely the key, and the scene that sticks with me the most from this season was the hospital bedside scene between he and Widmore where Widmore told him that unless he convinced everyone else to go back to the island, there was going to be a war and the wrong side was going to win.

Many thought that Locke himself was the key but in all reality, he was a facilitator. Without Locke (and more specifically Locke's death), Sayid does not shoot Ben and the Purge never occurs. Similarly, Jack would have never refused to treat Ben and Kate would not have helped Sawyer take him to the Others. So yeah, Locke fulfilling his destiny leads to everyone else fulfilling theirs'.

I guess in a weird way though, you could say that Ben was always responsible for his being shot and the Purge because he killed Locke. :lol

[UNLTrpt]

The bolded was just Sawyer being cool.

The refusal to do the surgery, however, was a sign of him embracing the "destiny" ideology Locke's been preaching since the beginning of the show. He believed that, if the island wanted Little Ben to live, it would do so with or without his involvement. He has evolved into a man of faith, like Locke or Eko, and is finally accepting the idea of his destiny on the island.

see I always viewed Jack and Johns relationship as a ying and yang sort of thing. Black and White theme that runs through the show. You can't have one without the other. John was the man of faith, and couldn't embrace the science...Jack was the man of science who couldn't embrace the faith or "destiny". John had a purpose (one of many) to be the balance of Jack, and Jack vice versa. The fact that Jack is now changing makes me wonder...what is going to become of John...is he going to become "a man of science"???

[jguinan101]

maybe the purge still would have happened but ben wouldn't have been helping the hostiles and maybe some how dharma would have won that war, maybe the war widmore was talking about was the purge, and dharma would have been the wrong side winning??

[DMBZeppelin]

I agree with you about everything but the Ben thing. When they filmed the scenes where Sayid tortured/questioned him, I really don't think they knew at the time that Sayid was going to shoot him in the past. As brilliant as they are though, they found a quick way to fix it.
100% agree they didn't know. Because Ben wasn't suppose to be Ben originally, right? My only point of the matter was. In the context of the show itself. If Ben remembers any of the last three years. He'll know some of the Oceanic815. Even if that's what they weren't initially intending when they wrote show, that's where we're at.

[DMBZeppelin]

maybe the purge still would have happened but ben wouldn't have been helping the hostiles and maybe some how dharma would have won that war, maybe the war widmore was talking about was the purge, and dharma would have been the wrong side winning??
If the war Widemore was talking about is in fact the purge. Locke needs to get back in time, because wasn't he suppose to be apart of said war? Though I'm interested if Sun and Frank are going to be able to bring everyone back, and how they'll get their themselves.

[water_into_wine]

see I always viewed Jack and Johns relationship as a ying and yang sort of thing. Black and White theme that runs through the show. You can't have one without the other. John was the man of faith, and couldn't embrace the science...Jack was the man of science who couldn't embrace the faith or "destiny". John had a purpose (one of many) to be the balance of Jack, and Jack vice versa. The fact that Jack is now changing makes me wonder...what is going to become of John...is he going to become "a man of science"???

See I think they still might be opposites. I can see Locke being more active and would have saved Ben while Jack is acting passive by saying why should he do anything if the kid is going to live anyway....which is dumb when you think about it because if he knows Ben is going to live then he might as well helped him anyway and been over with it.

[DMBZeppelin]

So Jack fucked up. If he would have saved him, Ben would have never gone to richard, and the purge would probably never happen. Ben gets saved by Sawyer and Kate, he becomes the leader, forgets everything that happened. Guess thats why he thinks he was born on the island? Maybe he didn't lie about that afterall.
No because we know for a fact that Ben isn't a little kid for the purge. It was the adult Ben who killed an older looking Roger. The purge doesn't happen till the early 90's. I forget how long Horace said he was dead to Locke, but that's how we know that. I just don't think Ben will remember getting shot. We also know he remembers because he tells Locke when he shoots him near the giant grave.

[water_into_wine]

People are talking shit on Jack, was I the only one happy as hell to hear him acknowledging that he was supposed to be on the island to fulfill his destiny and he doesn't know what that purpose is yet? HE'S A BELIEVER NOW, PEOPLE! It only took 4 and a half seasons, but Jack's finally embracing what we've been waiting the whole series for!

I love this as well...but you never know it could have been his destiny to save Ben and he fucked up...though it depends on how you look at destiny.

Locke is definitely the key, and the scene that sticks with me the most from this season was the hospital bedside scene between he and Widmore where Widmore told him that unless he convinced everyone else to go back to the island, there was going to be a war and the wrong side was going to win.

Many thought that Locke himself was the key but in all reality, he was a facilitator. Without Locke (and more specifically Locke's death), Sayid does not shoot Ben and the Purge never occurs. Similarly, Jack would have never refused to treat Ben and Kate would not have helped Sawyer take him to the Others. So yeah, Locke fulfilling his destiny leads to everyone else fulfilling theirs'.

I guess in a weird way though, you could say that Ben was always responsible for his being shot and the Purge because he killed Locke. :lol

Well I think Locke still may be the key. It does really make sense now why the island stopped time-shifting now. It's actually because Locke was destined to leave the island and he had to, in order to convince the Losties to come back. So him leaving put everything on track once again.

[water_into_wine]

Also I am going to go out and say that I predict the next episode will be the best episode of the season. A fucking Ben-centric episode that looks like it explores a lot of his past and has a lot of smoke monster action...or so it seems from the previews.

[JorgeCavos]

Also- did anyone catch the end when Sawyer handed Ben off to Richard and one of the others said he should run it by "Ellie and Charles". ELLIE HAWKING and CHARLES WIDMORE!

I forgot Widmore was leader of the others at this time, and seeing Richard take Ben to the Temple means we'll only be seeing more of it :)

[DMBZeppelin]

I love this as well...but you never know it could have been his destiny to save Ben and he fucked up...though it depends on how you look at destiny.
If he had saved Ben he would have changed time. Ben wouldn't lose his innocence. Then he would have never help set up the purge. I mean the whole reason Ben is evil is because Sayid shot him, Jack refused to save him, and then he was taken to the others. It always happened that way.

Well I think Locke still may be the key. It does really make sense now why the island stopped time-shifting now. It's actually because Locke was destined to leave the island and he had to, in order to convince the Losties to come back. So him leaving put everything on track once again.
I'm with you, but I don't think it was Locke's leaving that caused the island to stop. It was the moving of the wheel back into place. When Locke went down there the thing was moving back and forth. Kind of like the record Farraday described. I think when Locke pushed it back, everything was normal. The island was now "spinning" just fine.

Though I do wonder if everytime you turn it. That would mean it needs to be un-turned so to speak. Which if so could get kind of confusing. Because we also know Widmore did it. Though maybe Eloise (Farraday's mom) undid Widmore's turn, and that's how they both got off. I have no idea though. This last part is just my rambling.

[water_into_wine]

I'm with you, but I don't think it was Locke's leaving that caused the island to stop. It was the moving of the wheel back into place. When Locke went down there the thing was moving back and forth. Kind of like the record Farraday described. I think when Locke pushed it back, everything was normal. The island was now "spinning" just fine.

Though I do wonder if everytime you turn it. That would mean it needs to be un-turned so to speak. Which if so could get kind of confusing. Because we also know Widmore did it. Though maybe Eloise (Farraday's mom) undid Widmore's turn, and that's how they both got off. I have no idea though. This last part is just my rambling.

I definitely can agree with you, but you could say as a counter-point that the reason the wheel was "unhinged" lets say was because Locke had not left and needed to. Either way is probable though.

[sunshower]

Are we ever going to find out about the numbers and the skeletons in the cave?

[RJP2741]

No and Yes (just guessing).

[DMBZeppelin]

Are we ever going to find out about the numbers and the skeletons in the cave?
I have no idea on the numbers. My guess on the skeletons is.... (I'm probably way wrong, but I'll spoiler the next post since you can't quote and spoiler in the same post).

[jmkratt]

Also- did anyone catch the end when Sawyer handed Ben off to Richard and one of the others said he should run it by "Ellie and Charles". ELLIE HAWKING and CHARLES WIDMORE!

I forgot Widmore was leader of the others at this time, and seeing Richard take Ben to the Temple means we'll only be seeing more of it :)

Yeah, I am suprised nobody else has mentioned that yet :thumbsup

[DMBZeppelin]

Rose and Bernard. We have no idea what happened to them, and I see no purpose for them in the show anymore. I don't think the others would be threatened by them, and they could live out the rest of their days at the caves. Remember Rose said she would never leave the island because she doesn't want to get sick again. So lets say even if Jeff and Sun bring some of the Oceanic 815 back to the present. Will Rose and Benard even know? Because they went through the flashes, and they've been out there in the jungle for 3 years.

Just a theory, but in case it's right. There's your spoiler.

[GinaNMU]

I LOVED last night's episode. Answered a lot of questions for the complainers, too. I'm going to watch it again today though b/c last night I was on painkillers, hahahaha. Just to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[RJP2741]

I LOVED last night's episode. Answered a lot of questions for the complainers, too. I'm going to watch it again today though b/c last night I was on painkillers, hahahaha. Just to make sure I didn't miss anything.


:lol I loved it too.

[scrock25]

[QUOTE=sunshower;9158796]Are we ever going to find out about the numbers and the skeletons in the cave?[QUOTE]

It's already been mentioned by Carlton and Damon that they knew where they were taking the "Adam and Eve" story since way back when that episode aired in Season I.

There was always speculation that it was Jack and Kate. But now the popular belief is that it's Rose and Bernard.

[sunshower]

That would be so lame.

[il bacio dolce]

Not a big fan of Lost love connections, but, I thought it was a good dialogue between Kate and Jack:

I don't like the new you. I liked the old you...
You didn't like the old me, Kate......

Loved :rolleyes

[il bacio dolce]

Oh my gosh :lol No way he'd remember that his real mom looked similar to that woman in the supermarket.

[GinaNMU]

That would be so lame.

:confused Why?

[JTRocks]

I dont understand how everyone was so confused about the time traveling rules on the show. I know they dont follow the traditional rules of time travel, but the rules were explained in like the first episode of the season by Farraday.

Also, someone a back there said that Locke talked to Horace at some point. When was this i dont remember it happening. Was it Season 4? because ive only seen the episodes from S4 1 time each and ive been meaning to go back and check that season out again.

With all this talk about how Jack didn't save ben because that was his destiny, and what happened, happened. What if Jack actually did try to save Ben, wouldnt he probly have failed and eventually they would have had to take Ben to the Others no matter what.

Great episode. The whole thing with Alpert saying ben would "forget everything thats happened" I thought was a huge cop out by the writers, but oh well

[scrock25]

John Locke spoke to Horace during a dream sequence back near the end of Season III.

[RJP2741]

I dont understand how everyone was so confused about the time traveling rules on the show. I know they dont follow the traditional rules of time travel, but the rules were explained in like the first episode of the season by Farraday.

Also, someone a back there said that Locke talked to Horace at some point. When was this i dont remember it happening. Was it Season 4? because ive only seen the episodes from S4 1 time each and ive been meaning to go back and check that season out again.

With all this talk about how Jack didn't save ben because that was his destiny, and what happened, happened. What if Jack actually did try to save Ben, wouldnt he probly have failed and eventually they would have had to take Ben to the Others no matter what.

Great episode. The whole thing with Alpert saying ben would "forget everything thats happened" I thought was a huge cop out by the writers, but oh well

If Jack tried to save Ben, he might have succeeded. But the Universe would course correct, and eventually Ben was going into that Temple with Richard.

[JTRocks]

John Locke spoke to Horace during a dream sequence back near the end of Season III.

no shit? I dont remember this at all. I'll have to look at lostpedia

[JTRocks]

So I looked up Horace on lostpedia and found something intersting. In the dream sequence where Locke finds Horace chopping wood, he tells Locke that Jacob has been waiting a long time for Locke, and he tells Locke that in order to find Jacob, he must find Horace first. Locke then went to the mass Dharma grave and finds the blueprint for Jacobs cabin in Horace's pocket.

The part where he says Locke has to find Horace to find Jacob, could this mean that Locke has to go back into the 70's to find Horace and then, in turn, find Jacob. Or did this just mean that Locke had to find Horace's dead body?

[il bacio dolce]

I'm not sure if "Whatever happened, happened" is meant to be taken in the strict sense that no detail can be any different. Maybe that phrase should be interpretted as "whatever was supposed to happen eventually in some way happens". It doesn't matter how it transpired, who was involved, what was said, only that it did happen. Ben survived, somehow. That can't be changed, but the details of how and when and who can be slightly altered - the outcome is what it is. You can try to change the course of things but the course corrects itself somehow, because that's what's meant to happen. (The way your car gps will recalculate if you miss a turn, it'll still get you home)

It seems a little too convenient that Ben has his memory erased and therefore will not remember Sayid when he meets him 30 years later. But what if Sayid DID alter the details of how Ben ended up with The Others? Maybe that's why his memory had to be erased, because that WOULD make everything different for Ben, and that's not the way it's supposed to happen. I think Alpert has the power to do this, because sometimes he has to, when people are showing up in time period they're not supposed to be in (kind of like how Doctor Who would erase your memory - can't have the Queen telling the whole world an alien invasion almost killed all of them, lol)

[il bacio dolce]

The appearance of "A Separate Reality"... They wouldn't put it in there if it didn't mean something. The title, just that phrase alone, might be a hint that there are separate timelines... but it gets too fucking confusing. To paraphrase a theory that I heard: The 2007 group is in a different timeline that the one the 1977 group is on. In that timeline, the war that Widmore and others have alluded to has already happened on the island, which is why the present day island looks so strange, kind of post apocolyptic wasteland. Somehow the 1977 group must change the course of events, prevent the war from happening - and that is why they came back.

And that would be better than nothing, because I'd really appreciate a clear, concrete idea of a purpose of their return. I know whatever happened, happened, but why go back in time if you can not accomplish anything while you're there?

But if you look deeper than the title, since it's not actually about separate realities in terms of time travel, but separate realms of consciousness, whether it be dreaming or in the afterlife or some other altered state... If that's what they're meaning to allude to... I know the early theories of the island being purgatory, all those people are dead and this is their afterlife, have pretty much been dismissed... But there have been references to eternal life and rebirth throughout the series... And people who we think are dead re-appear in different forms... Not sure where I'm going with that, just speculating.

[JorgeCavos]

So I looked up Horace on lostpedia and found something intersting. In the dream sequence where Locke finds Horace chopping wood, he tells Locke that Jacob has been waiting a long time for Locke, and he tells Locke that in order to find Jacob, he must find Horace first. Locke then went to the mass Dharma grave and finds the blueprint for Jacobs cabin in Horace's pocket.

The part where he says Locke has to find Horace to find Jacob, could this mean that Locke has to go back into the 70's to find Horace and then, in turn, find Jacob. Or did this just mean that Locke had to find Horace's dead body?

He just meant his body so Locke could find the blueprint

[mja271]

why was Ben's gunshot wound in a different place this week. That really bothered me.

[water_into_wine]

Are we ever going to find out about the numbers and the skeletons in the cave?

I have a feeling Hurley is the one who says the numbers. Or at least for awhile I thought that.

[joepsu0985]

So the real question is why dont the losties remember everything that happened in 1977 if they always contributed to it? I mean the only clear explanation is that their minds are back in 1977 as well as their person. So they dont know what happened other than from hindsight from stories/the primary island shifts, etc. From hindsight they know of the previous big events. (I.E. The Purge). They don't know what their roles are in all of it because where they are and primarilly where their minds are, it hasen't happened yet.

The problem with all of this is that they remember everything from the original crash, which was in 2004 and after they got off the island. (Sawyer, Miles and Juliette remember joining Dharma.) The Losties also remembered their lives prior to flying on OAL 815.

So show starts out and goes 100+ days with the island in 2004 time, (at least we can assume). Ben throws the switch and wasn't supposed to. Island started jumping time. Locked fixes it, and the Island winds up in 1977 time. Somehow the crew who got off the island go back in 2007 or 2008 and make it back to 1977 island time. While Sun, Dead Lock, and Big Ben make it back to real life time. (We can assume).

Questions that make no sense.

1. Why didn't the Losties remember being on the island from a point in their previous life when they crashed there on 815?
2. Why are Ben and Sun in a different time on the island?
3. If the Losties were on the Island in 1977, what happened to them during the Purge?

This post is ridiculously long and rambles on, but there is a huge gap, that seems impossible to fill. At one point they left the island, to come back on 815 (dont remember every being there), get off and come back. Crazy.

[JTRocks]

theres two timelines, the island timeline and the losties timeline. the losties are still living their life, just on the islands time. Picture this, the losties get on that Ajira plane sometime in 2007 right, well they are on the island but back in the real world it's still 2007. O dont know, do some backreading, theres some people that explain it better than me

[boarderx5423]

Questions that make no sense.

1. Why didn't the Losties remember being on the island from a point in their previous life when they crashed there on 815?

This post is ridiculously long and rambles on, but there is a huge gap, that seems impossible to fill. At one point they left the island, to come back on 815 (dont remember every being there), get off and come back. Crazy.

No. Sorry, this is just straight up wrong. Let's use the day the freighter blew up as the 'present.' At that point, when some are on the freighter and others at the Orchid, the crash of 815 in 2004 is in their past. It happened about 100 days ago. However, them being in 1977 is in their future. It hasn't happened yet, it is going to happen 3 years from that point. At that point, Sayid shooting Ben in 1977 is in the future for Sayid, but it is in the past for Ben.

The day they crashed on 815 was the first time the Losties had been on the island. For everyone else's timeline, they were there in the past. But for our Losties, that event is in the future. Make sense?

And I don't think you can ask all these 'what if' questions. You cannot ask 'what if' Jack decided to try to save Ben, because he didn't. It's all predestination. Jack may think he is attempting to change things by refusing to try to help Ben, but he isn't. Everything he, and the rest of the people do, has already been determined.

Oh, and the new Jack rocks. That is all.

[joepsu0985]

No. Sorry, this is just straight up wrong. Let's use the day the freighter blew up as the 'present.' At that point, when some are on the freighter and others at the Orchid, the crash of 815 in 2004 is in their past. It happened about 100 days ago. However, them being in 1977 is in their future. It hasn't happened yet, it is going to happen 3 years from that point. At that point, Sayid shooting Ben in 1977 is in the future for Sayid, but it is in the past for Ben.

The day they crashed on 815 was the first time the Losties had been on the island. For everyone else's timeline, they were there in the past. But for our Losties, that event is in the future. Make sense?

And I don't think you can ask all these 'what if' questions. You cannot ask 'what if' Jack decided to try to save Ben, because he didn't. It's all predestination. Jack may think he is attempting to change things by refusing to try to help Ben, but he isn't. Everything he, and the rest of the people do, has already been determined.

Oh, and the new Jack rocks. That is all.

I think I agree with this. Right but they are involved with the events that shaped who they are and who they have become on the island. Eventually they are going to see 815 crash if they were to stay on the island until then.

[dh4645]

why was Ben's gunshot wound in a different place this week. That really bothered me.

yeah, i noticed this too. last week it was in the heart area, but this week it was on the opposite side. it was the first thing i saw when jin rolled ben over

[dh4645]

Also- did anyone catch the end when Sawyer handed Ben off to Richard and one of the others said he should run it by "Ellie and Charles". ELLIE HAWKING and CHARLES WIDMORE!

I forgot Widmore was leader of the others at this time, and seeing Richard take Ben to the Temple means we'll only be seeing more of it :)

yeah i rewound this because i wasnt sure if the dude said ellie or not (he had some sort of accent). but he did say charles and ellie.

and richard says he doesnt answer to them and walks ben into the smoke monster lair....dun, dun dun....
ha

[dh4645]

No. Sorry, this is just straight up wrong. Let's use the day the freighter blew up as the 'present.' At that point, when some are on the freighter and others at the Orchid, the crash of 815 in 2004 is in their past. It happened about 100 days ago. However, them being in 1977 is in their future. It hasn't happened yet, it is going to happen 3 years from that point. At that point, Sayid shooting Ben in 1977 is in the future for Sayid, but it is in the past for Ben.

The day they crashed on 815 was the first time the Losties had been on the island. For everyone else's timeline, they were there in the past. But for our Losties, that event is in the future. Make sense?

And I don't think you can ask all these 'what if' questions. You cannot ask 'what if' Jack decided to try to save Ben, because he didn't. It's all predestination. Jack may think he is attempting to change things by refusing to try to help Ben, but he isn't. Everything he, and the rest of the people do, has already been determined.

Oh, and the new Jack rocks. That is all.

exactly

as i said a few days ago after i watched last weeks episode:

it's like each person has their own past, present and future and it's not on the same timeline as anybody else.
every individual has their own timeline. (well, certain sets of people have been on a timeline together, but that doesnt prevent them from splitting off at some point)

one example to go by is ben's timeline...he is shot by an older sayid, but many years later he gets captured by the losties and is tortured by a younger sayid.

you have to look at everyone's timeline seperately to make it make sense....well, i have to anyway

EDIT:
where's junior94???

[TwoStep2888]

This was posted on another forum, and it's a pretty helpful, comprehensive visual guide to LOST time travel.

http://i42.tinypic.com/122zs5f.png



Here is a much-simplified version, made before the Oceanic 6 returned to the island.

http://i42.tinypic.com/kexoi9.jpg

[Talula62]

I have been very anti-Jack for awhile now, but I'm starting to like him more again because he is indeed becoming a believer and embracing his destiny. Maybe that is Locke's purpose is the grand scheme of things, making Jack embrace his destiny in regards to the island (although I think Locke has more to do than just that still).I've been very anti-Jack too but I've been so anti-Jack that I'm still not yet at the point where I give a crap about him. :lol Probably only because I know WAY too many people who have HATED Locke but loooooooved Jack all these years -- makes me so mad! :lol

And that would be better than nothing, because I'd really appreciate a clear, concrete idea of a purpose of their return. I know whatever happened, happened, but why go back in time if you can not accomplish anything while you're there? SERIOUSLY. "Because that's what was supposed to happen" is not a sufficient explanation.

Let's use the day the freighter blew up as the 'present.' At that point, when some are on the freighter and others at the Orchid, the crash of 815 in 2004 is in their past. It happened about 100 days ago. However, them being in 1977 is in their future. It hasn't happened yet, it is going to happen 3 years from that point. At that point, Sayid shooting Ben in 1977 is in the future for Sayid, but it is in the past for Ben.I get this, though. Well said.

where's junior94???Word. You know he's working on the most epic of all posts. :lol

This was posted on another forum, and it's a pretty helpful, comprehensive visual guide to LOST time travel.

http://i42.tinypic.com/122zs5f.png:lol :lol :lol "Here there be motherfucking dinosaurs and four toed statues." That thing is mind boggling.

[joepsu0985]

I don't by any of these theories. Huge gaps. The writers are in deep with this whole time travel thing. I'm going to kick back and watch the story and explanations unfold. They have yet to let me down in 4.5 seasons.

[DMBZeppelin]

If Jack tried to save Ben, he might have succeeded. But the Universe would course correct, and eventually Ben was going into that Temple with Richard.
Exactly. Just like with Charlie. You can save him then, but he'll die another way. Ben would have gotten hurt somehow someway that he needed to go to the temple.

[il bacio dolce]

I don't think we can say that they have no clue what they're doing. We're not science fiction writers. :lol They have a better idea than we do.

I just don't buy the whole "Whatever happened always happened" deal... They were babies in 1977, Hurley probably wasn't born til the 80s. So they were not ALWAYS there, so that is NOT WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENED. If it always just happened, it would not be necessary to travel back in time and live it again.. or for the first time..

I see no reason why they would have to go back in time to a point where some of them didn't/barely exist yet, unless they were going to accomplish or change something, in which case, whatever happened happened because they went back and changed it, and would not have happened if they did not travel through time!!!! They have to change SOMETHING!

I mean okay... it's a paradox, it contradicts itself, blah blah blah. Time is not a straight line, you can travel from any point in time to any other point in time, and you were always there, and everything that you do in a certain time affects everything that happens the rest of the time, and if one detail changes everything changes. That is to say, if you prevent or cause a major event that wasn't supposed to happen, your world implodes. Like I said before, details can change on the micro level, but what is supposed to happen on the macro level still happens because it can't not happen.

/Lost, I quit.

[il bacio dolce]

Rewatch the scenes where Ben and Sun meet Christian in New Otherton in 2007. It looks like the Others were never even there, it just looks like it would have... post-Jughead? The pictures in the house, the registration sign, things left over from Dharmaville that the Others would have changed. So clearly, in the reality that Ben and Sun are in currently, things happened very differently... THEY DID GO BACK AND CHANGE EVERYTHING!

Makes no fucking sense.

[il bacio dolce]

If Sayid just wanted to kill Ben, why didn't he do it in the cell or as soon as they got out in the jungle? I seem to remember him killing a guy with his own two legs, why did he wait til he could get a gun off Jin? I guess he got used to using a gun and lost his ninja skills.

[joepsu0985]

I don't think we can say that they have no clue what they're doing. We're not science fiction writers. :lol They have a better idea than we do.

I just don't buy the whole "Whatever happened always happened" deal... They were babies in 1977, Hurley probably wasn't born til the 80s. So they were not ALWAYS there, so that is NOT WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENED. If it always just happened, it would not be necessary to travel back in time and live it again.. or for the first time..

I see no reason why they would have to go back in time to a point where some of them didn't/barely exist yet, unless they were going to accomplish or change something, in which case, whatever happened happened because they went back and changed it, and would not have happened if they did not travel through time!!!! They have to change SOMETHING!

I mean okay... it's a paradox, it contradicts itself, blah blah blah. Time is not a straight line, you can travel from any point in time to any other point in time, and you were always there, and everything that you do in a certain time affects everything that happens the rest of the time, and if one detail changes everything changes. That is to say, if you prevent or cause a major event that wasn't supposed to happen, your world implodes. Like I said before, details can change on the micro level, but what is supposed to happen on the macro level still happens because it can't not happen.

/Lost, I quit.

Well what I understand is that right now they are in the DI camp and this is the LOSTIES present. From the time of the crash, to when they got off the island, to when they went back 3 years real time later. The events that they are witnessing happened already on the original time line. They were all there but don't remember it? I mean they could have that Oh moment that Des had after he met Faraday at the hatch. The writers covered their ass on Ben not remembering from earlier in the series.

If you want to say that the losties back on the island are on a different time line, then fine. But that whatever happened, happened BS doesnt apply. In fact I'm going to say that if they were there on the island during these events, then they were there on a different time line than their real life at one point.

None of this makes sense.

I don't think we will get an answer to this without the Losties getting back to the purge. And 815 crashing. What happens then? WHen they see themsevles after the crash in 2004. If they can't change things where they are now, then there is no point to time travel and this story sucks. Them not remembering anything but still being there in when it happened on the original time line is bogus to me. Either they were living lives in two different time lines prior to 815 or they can change the past. I cannot hang my hat on a theory that makes no sense. They killed of Faraday for a reason. Hell he didnt even know for sure. Curveball on Faradays ramblings by the writers.

[joepsu0985]

Rewatch the scenes where Ben and Sun meet Christian in New Otherton in 2007. It looks like the Others were never even there, it just looks like it would have... post-Jughead? The pictures in the house, the registration sign, things left over from Dharmaville that the Others would have changed. So clearly, in the reality that Ben and Sun are in currently, things happened very differently... THEY DID GO BACK AND CHANGE EVERYTHING!

Makes no fucking sense.

Yup. Something goes down because of the Losties or the show sucks and makes no sense.

[jguinan101]

Rewatch the scenes where Ben and Sun meet Christian in New Otherton in 2007. It looks like the Others were never even there, it just looks like it would have... post-Jughead? The pictures in the house, the registration sign, things left over from Dharmaville that the Others would have changed. So clearly, in the reality that Ben and Sun are in currently, things happened very differently... THEY DID GO BACK AND CHANGE EVERYTHING!

Makes no fucking sense.

When I was rewatching that episode I was thinking along the same lines. Wherever Sun and Ben are meeting with Christian seems like a very weird version of dharmaville. It doesn't look like it did when we saw it in season 4. It looks like it did in 77 in "Namaste" only it look like a run down version of that. Not the version we see the others living in in 2004. Very weird and intriguing???

[il bacio dolce]

The finale might explain what the big Incident is that changes everything. But take your whateverhappenedhappened and blow it out your hole.

[Clem Haskins]

Losties present=actual past, Dharma current.

[il bacio dolce]

Can we be totally sure that there wasn't a time shift when 815 crashed on the island?

This thought is probably a good sign that I need some sleep.

[Clem Haskins]

Can we be totally sure that there wasn't a time shift when 815 crashed on the island?

This thought is probably a good sign that I need some sleep.

Makes ya wanna re-watch the pilot, doesn't it? :confused:confused

[il bacio dolce]

Makes ya wanna re-watch the pilot, doesn't it? :confused:confused

Unfortunately, I doubt there is a single clue, or even a hint at the time travel concept in the first season.

[DoDaFoo]

They explain the time travel once again on the show to make it easy for everyone to understand and people still dont fucking get it. Amazing...

[JorgeCavos]

Unfortunatheely, I doubt there is a single clue, or even a hint at the time travel concept in the first season.

The showrunners (Damon and Carlton) have stated several times that the Adam & Eve shown (around the 3rd episode or so) will be proof that they knew what they were going to do from the beginning.

It's also heavily rumored that Bernard and Rose will end up being those bodies since we havent seen them since the flash to the 50s and when Jack and Kate found the bodies in 2004, Jack estimated that the decomposition of the bodies looked about 50 years.

They've known they'd do time travel since the beginning, it was just a matter of how they'd tell the story that changed over time.

[DMBZeppelin]

I just don't buy the whole "Whatever happened always happened" deal... They were babies in 1977, Hurley probably wasn't born til the 80s. So they were not ALWAYS there, so that is NOT WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENED. If it always just happened, it would not be necessary to travel back in time and live it again.. or for the first time..

I see no reason why they would have to go back in time to a point where some of them didn't/barely exist yet, unless they were going to accomplish or change something, in which case, whatever happened happened because they went back and changed it, and would not have happened if they did not travel through time!!!! They have to change SOMETHING!
You're applying Back to the Future rules to Lost. Time isn't happening it's always been. It's not like in Back to the Future where the 1950's happened, and then in present day time Michael Fox travels back and interacts with historical events. That is not how Lost works at all.

In 2007 it's the Lostees present, but no one elses. The future already exist. Of course some of them barely existed in the 70's and some born in the 80's, but that's not the point. Baby Jack and Kate didn't go to the island. The adult versions went to the island. They always went back to the 70's because they were ALWAYS going to exist in 2004.

I brought this up before. Look at Ethan. He was in season 1 and pretended to have been on Oceanic Flight 815, and almost killed Charlie. According to your beliefs on time travel he can't exist. Because Sawyer hadn't yet gone back in time to save his mom who wouldn't give birth to him till 3 years later.

Ben would have grown up to be a nice guy, but going to the temple and becoming an other caused him to turn evil. Sawyer and Kate took him to the temple. The Dharma people wouldn't have. This was always possible, because it happened this way the 1st time around. Which is kind of not the point because time isn't happening. It's not something that unfolds. Your life happening is but an illusion.

They're not going back to change things. They went back because without them going back none of these things ever happen. It was their destiny to go. Everything that happened happened.

I mean okay... it's a paradox, it contradicts itself, blah blah blah. Time is not a straight line, you can travel from any point in time to any other point in time, and you were always there, and everything that you do in a certain time affects everything that happens the rest of the time, and if one detail changes everything changes. That is to say, if you prevent or cause a major event that wasn't supposed to happen, your world implodes. Like I said before, details can change on the micro level, but what is supposed to happen on the macro level still happens because it can't not happen.

/Lost, I quit.
You can in theory change something, but like with Charlie. The universe will course correct.

The events that they are witnessing happened already on the original time line. They were all there but don't remember it?
Stop thinking "In 2004 I can remember what I did in 1979." and think of it as "When I'm 10, do I have memories of that family vacation I took when I was 55?" because you wouldn't. You have to experiance that in your adult hood. They can only remember what they lived through. You won't remember what happens as you get older, regardless of what time period you're living in.

I mean they could have that Oh moment that Des had after he met Faraday at the hatch. The writers covered their ass on Ben not remembering from earlier in the series.
The thing was Desmond has yet to be explained, but we also know Desmond is a little special when it comes to travel.

They didn't cover their asses with Sayid and Ben. Even if Ben remembered Sayid, what would you expect him to do? "MY GOD I HAVE A FRIEND IN RICHARD WHO NEVER AGES! MY DEAD MOTHER CAME AND VISITED ME! BUT THIS IS JUST TOO MUCH! YOU SHOT ME AS A CHILD!" Ben would have played it cool regardless and use his knowledge of the Oceanic 815 against them.

If you want to say that the losties back on the island are on a different time line, then fine. But that whatever happened, happened BS doesnt apply. In fact I'm going to say that if they were there on the island during these events, then they were there on a different time line than their real life at one point.
The BS DOES apply. I think people just need to disregard how they think time travel works, and pay attention to the laws Farraday laid out.

I don't think we will get an answer to this without the Losties getting back to the purge.
They're in the 70's and the purge happened in the 90's. I'm not sure they'll be with Dharma that long.

And 815 crashing. What happens then? WHen they see themsevles after the crash in 2004. If they can't change things where they are now, then there is no point to time travel and this story sucks.
What do you mean what happens when the plane crashes? They'll be much much older. The whole point of time travel was it was always suppose to happen like this. Sun and Frank were told they had a long journey ahead after being told Jin's location. So obviously there's a way back to the 70's and a way back to their present.

Them not remembering anything but still being there in when it happened on the original time line is bogus to me. Either they were living lives in two different time lines prior to 815 or they can change the past. I cannot hang my hat on a theory that makes no sense. They killed of Faraday for a reason. Hell he didnt even know for sure. Curveball on Faradays ramblings by the writers.
They killed Faraday? I think not. He's one of the best characters on the show. I'm sure he'll be back. The theory makes 100% sense, and I hope I helped explain it to you. If not, I doubt you'll ever get it. I'm not sure why you think they'd be born with the knowledge of everything they'd do in their lives.

[dh4645]

In 2007 it's the Lostees present, but no one elses. The future already exist. Of course some of them barely existed in the 70's and some born in the 80's, but that's not the point. Baby Jack and Kate didn't go to the island. The adult versions went to the island. They always went back to the 70's because they were ALWAYS going to exist in 2004.

I brought this up before. Look at Ethan. He was in season 1 and pretended to have been on Oceanic Flight 815, and almost killed Charlie. According to your beliefs on time travel he can't exist. Because Sawyer hadn't yet gone back in time to save his mom who wouldn't give birth to him till 3 years later.

Ben would have grown up to be a nice guy, but going to the temple and becoming an other caused him to turn evil. Sawyer and Kate took him to the temple. The Dharma people wouldn't have. This was always possible, because it happened this way the 1st time around. Which is kind of not the point because time isn't happening. It's not something that unfolds. Your life happening is but an illusion.

Stop thinking "In 2004 I can remember what I did in 1979." and think of it as "When I'm 10, do I have memories of that family vacation I took when I was 55?" because you wouldn't. You have to experiance that in your adult hood. They can only remember what they lived through. You won't remember what happens as you get older, regardless of what time period you're living in.

They're in the 70's and the purge happened in the 90's. I'm not sure they'll be with Dharma that long.

They killed Faraday? I think not. He's one of the best characters on the show. I'm sure he'll be back. The theory makes 100% sense, and I hope I helped explain it to you. If not, I doubt you'll ever get it. I'm not sure why you think they'd be born with the knowledge of everything they'd do in their lives.

i pretty much agree with everything you wrote.

and faraday isnt dead, we just havent seen him.
When Jack, Kate, and Hurley returned to the island in 1977, Sawyer mentioned Faraday. Jack asked, "He's here?" Sawyer responded, "Not anymore."

[JTRocks]

They explain the time travel once again on the show to make it easy for everyone to understand and people still dont fucking get it. Amazing...

everyone is failing to realize that the island IS ON IT'S OWN TIMELINE!!!. It's 1977 on the island right now, but in the rest of the world, it's still 2007 (or whatever year they were in when they crashed the Ajira plane)

[joepsu0985]

Ok. So I agree with this. But that means there are baby Losties in the 70s' (their present now) back in their cribs. As someone said above, the incident causing the plane to crash started their new time line that is different from the the real time line. Ok. I get it. I buy it. The island had to start them on a new time line. They took off on the timeline as most people experience it and crashed on the crazy Island time line. But I mean we know the basic story of ben, dharma and the island. I guess we don't exactly know how it happened in the 70s, just that the dharma exist.

It might be a case of predestination and the fact that they went "back in time" is a farce. They were always supposed to go back to the 70s as a means for the island to correct itself. The gap in my mind is closing. I'm buying it. But I don't think it was the case of everything already happening. I think it is the case of everything that is SUPPOSED to happen is going to happen.

The losties pre 815 were on the real time line. Hell I'm going as far as saying dimension. They were also in their adult life in dharma as the same time they were babies. They were always supposed to crash, and until they did, they could never get back to the island and further their lives in the 70s in a new timeline/dimension.

Eventually both time lines will meet up, once the Losties serve their purpose. I also think that they can correct the course of the events. There is no point in using time travel if you cant fix anything. I mean the writers certainly arent taking us back to just tell a story. But that is my theory. It almost contains no wholes. It's called the time travel/dimension theory.

[dh4645]

is it next wednesday yet?

[Clem Haskins]

Ok. So I agree with this. But that means there are baby Losties in the 70s' (their present now) back in their cribs. As someone said above, the incident causing the plane to crash started their new time line that is different from the the real time line. Ok. I get it. I buy it. The island had to start them on a new time line. They took off on the timeline as most people experience it and crashed on the crazy Island time line. But I mean we know the basic story of ben, dharma and the island. I guess we don't exactly know how it happened in the 70s, just that the dharma exist.

It might be a case of predestination and the fact that they went "back in time" is a farce. They were always supposed to go back to the 70s as a means for the island to correct itself. The gap in my mind is closing. I'm buying it. But I don't think it was the case of everything already happening. I think it is the case of everything that is SUPPOSED to happen is going to happen.

The losties pre 815 were on the real time line. Hell I'm going as far as saying dimension. They were also in their adult life in dharma as the same time they were babies. They were always supposed to crash, and until they did, they could never get back to the island and further their lives in the 70s in a new timeline/dimension.

Eventually both time lines will meet up, once the Losties serve their purpose. I also think that they can correct the course of the events. There is no point in using time travel if you cant fix anything. I mean the writers certainly arent taking us back to just tell a story. But that is my theory. It almost contains no wholes. It's called the time travel/dimension theory.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[boarderx5423]

I think I agree with this. Right but they are involved with the events that shaped who they are and who they have become on the island. Eventually they are going to see 815 crash if they were to stay on the island until then.

If they don't leave the island and are not killed by Ben in the Purge, then yes, they would see their past selves when 815 crashed.

[dh4645]

If they don't leave the island and are not killed by Ben in the Purge, then yes, they would see their past selves when 815 crashed.

yes, but i doubt that'll happen

[boarderx5423]

I just don't buy the whole "Whatever happened always happened" deal... They were babies in 1977, Hurley probably wasn't born til the 80s. So they were not ALWAYS there, so that is NOT WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENED. If it always just happened, it would not be necessary to travel back in time and live it again.. or for the first time..

I see no reason why they would have to go back in time to a point where some of them didn't/barely exist yet, unless they were going to accomplish or change something, in which case, whatever happened happened because they went back and changed it, and would not have happened if they did not travel through time!!!! They have to change SOMETHING!


They explain the time travel once again on the show to make it easy for everyone to understand and people still dont fucking get it. Amazing...

:thumbsup

[boarderx5423]

yes, but i doubt that'll happen

Yeah, same here.

[Clem Haskins]

Sorry, I don't have the patience for a backread right now, but in the ep where Ben shoots Locke and Locke falls into the dharma purge grave, is there a Dharma skeleton wearing a LaFleur uniform?

[boarderx5423]

You're applying Back to the Future rules to Lost. Time isn't happening it's always been. It's not like in Back to the Future where the 1950's happened, and then in present day time Michael Fox travels back and interacts with historical events. That is not how Lost works at all.

In 2007 it's the Lostees present, but no one elses. The future already exist. Of course some of them barely existed in the 70's and some born in the 80's, but that's not the point. Baby Jack and Kate didn't go to the island. The adult versions went to the island. They always went back to the 70's because they were ALWAYS going to exist in 2004.

I brought this up before. Look at Ethan. He was in season 1 and pretended to have been on Oceanic Flight 815, and almost killed Charlie. According to your beliefs on time travel he can't exist. Because Sawyer hadn't yet gone back in time to save his mom who wouldn't give birth to him till 3 years later.

Ben would have grown up to be a nice guy, but going to the temple and becoming an other caused him to turn evil. Sawyer and Kate took him to the temple. The Dharma people wouldn't have. This was always possible, because it happened this way the 1st time around. Which is kind of not the point because time isn't happening. It's not something that unfolds. Your life happening is but an illusion.

They're not going back to change things. They went back because without them going back none of these things ever happen. It was their destiny to go. Everything that happened happened.

Thank you for summing it up better than I ever could have. :thumbsup

And to expand further on the 'everything that happened happened' idea, and sorry if I'm being redundant, but I haven't really seen much agreeing or refuting this idea.

By stating that 'whatever happened, happened,' is basically saying that everything is predestined, and there is no free will. Jack may think he's trying to change the future when he decides not to save Ben, but in reality, that is exactly what was always going to happen. Every action, every thought, every time he thinks he's making a decision and exercising his free will has already been laid out. Going with the Back to the Future reference, it is how they were able to travel in the future to 2015. Everyone's entire life has been laid out, and they are simply along for the ride. At the end of the movie, the Doc says something along the lines of 'you're future is whatever you decide to make it.' This is not the case in lost. They may think they're making and deciding their own future, but it has already been decided for them. There is no need to course correct. You cannot ask 'what-if Jack would have saved him?', because he didn't.

Any thoughts?

[boarderx5423]

Sorry, I don't have the patience for a backread right now, but in the ep where Ben shoots Locke and Locke falls into the dharma purge grave, is there a Dharma skeleton wearing a LaFleur uniform?

I don't think you can make out any of the other names. It would definitely be interesting to go back and look though.

[cotton#36]

This show is getting really stupid.

[RJP2741]

This show is getting really awesome.

Fixed.

[il bacio dolce]

Did anyone else notice that when Jin finds Ben the gsw was in the opposite side of his chest? I was saying before, why would Sayid miss, he's done this before? He didn't. But Jin finds him and the wound is on the opposite side. The zipper right down the middle of his hoodie helps illustrate this :lol

I have started to figure out that the reason we have character centric episodes and why we see the same scenes again with minor changes: We are seeing it through a different character's perspective. They are seeing just what they want/need to see, ie Jin finding Ben with a life threatening gsw to the chest, that initially was fatal as it was right through his heart. He couldn't have not died. Ben fell face down. So who ever found him next and turned him over, would see it the way the island wanted them to see it!

I read a recap where someone pointed out, when Kate lost Aaron in the grocery store, the other customers didn't seem alarmed as they should be. The stock boy she asked about the juice boxes acted like he never saw Aaron. She races around the whole store and can't see him, finally she sees him in a security mirror. Nobody else ever saw Aaron. As soon as Kate started to wonder whether she deserved to have Aaron, she lost him, he disappeared. That incident convinced Kate she needed to give him up and go back... There again, the island is trying to send them a message, even when they're off the island. Am I saying Aaron is a ghost? No, but he certainly has some supernatural communal relationship to the island.


Jack says it best: "Maybe the island just wants to fix things itself." He's sounding a lot like Locke there!

[dh4645]

Did anyone else notice that when Jin finds Ben the gsw was in the opposite side of his chest? I was saying before, why would Sayid miss, he's done this before? He didn't. But Jin finds him and the wound is on the opposite side. The zipper right down the middle of his hoodie helps illustrate this :lol


yeah, we talked about this on the page or 2 before this.

[Jimi47]

Thoughts on the Losties being the missing Dharma "children"?

[il bacio dolce]

yeah, we talked about this on the page or 2 before this.

I know but it ties in to what I was rambling about. :lol

[dh4645]

I know but it ties in to what I was rambling about. :lol

oh ok

did anyone think it was weird that kate just left aaron in the hotel room by himself?...even before grandma made her decision to come over.

what if she decides to just check out of the hotel without him.?

[dh4645]

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2009/04/01/lost-episode-5x11-whatever-happened-happened-screencaps-easter-eggs-audio-analysis/

"Basically, every individual has his/her own timeline that contains a past, a present, and a future, no matter what year that past took place in or what year it is in the present. That past will always remain unchanged. That present and future are up for grabs. That takes a minute to digest, but makes sense. "

exactly what i said after i watched last weeks episode.
great minds think alike

[dh4645]

i was reading some other sites and someone thinks that ben's bullet doesnt get removed and eventually turns into the tumor jack has to remove.

i'm not sure if it works that way, but who knows.
is there a Dr. in the house?

[il bacio dolce]

oh ok

did anyone think it was weird that kate just left aaron in the hotel room by himself?...even before grandma made her decision to come over.

what if she decides to just check out of the hotel without him.?

I don't know but... Everyone was wondering what happened to Aaron and why Kate wanted to be with Jack after losing him/giving him up. I guess that whole thing makes a little more sense now. a) she wanted to go back, and b) she knew Jack was going, and c) she was lonely/needed comfort.

[il bacio dolce]

i was reading some other sites and someone thinks that ben's bullet doesnt get removed and eventually turns into the tumor jack has to remove.

i'm not sure if it works that way, but who knows.
is there a Dr. in the house?

Nah. Although it would have been cool if Jack operated on him and found an old bullet. But that didn't happen.

[Beebz]

Did anyone else notice that when Jin finds Ben the gsw was in the opposite side of his chest? I was saying before, why would Sayid miss, he's done this before? He didn't. But Jin finds him and the wound is on the opposite side. The zipper right down the middle of his hoodie helps illustrate this :lol

I have started to figure out that the reason we have character centric episodes and why we see the same scenes again with minor changes: We are seeing it through a different character's perspective. They are seeing just what they want/need to see, ie Jin finding Ben with a life threatening gsw to the chest, that initially was fatal as it was right through his heart. He couldn't have not died. Ben fell face down. So who ever found him next and turned him over, would see it the way the island wanted them to see it!

I read a recap where someone pointed out, when Kate lost Aaron in the grocery store, the other customers didn't seem alarmed as they should be. The stock boy she asked about the juice boxes acted like he never saw Aaron. She races around the whole store and can't see him, finally she sees him in a security mirror. Nobody else ever saw Aaron. As soon as Kate started to wonder whether she deserved to have Aaron, she lost him, he disappeared. That incident convinced Kate she needed to give him up and go back... There again, the island is trying to send them a message, even when they're off the island. Am I saying Aaron is a ghost? No, but he certainly has some supernatural communal relationship to the island.


Jack says it best: "Maybe the island just wants to fix things itself." He's sounding a lot like Locke there!

Hmmm.....sounds awfully similar to this (http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2009/04/things-i-noticed-whatever-happened.html)

[Number27]

is it next wednesday yet?
:lol :thumbsup

[il bacio dolce]

Hmmm.....sounds awfully similar to this (http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2009/04/things-i-noticed-whatever-happened.html)

I know, like I said, I got the idea from a recap I read, was just speculating more on that.

[Number27]

Juliette in those white scrubs. :hump

[scrock25]

I don't really find her attractive at all what with her slanted face and saggy tits and whatnot.

[il bacio dolce]

Don't get the wrong idea. I check the tv listings on zap2it, and they had this in the newsfeed. I don't scour the internet for Lost news day and night. :lol

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/awards/2009/04/lost-picks-up-peabody.html

ABC’s "Lost" was a first-time Peabody winner that judges declared has "rewritten the rules of television fiction." (:lol)

The drama’s executive producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof, who were editing the season finale Wednesday, were thrilled with the honor. Cuse said he initially thought it was an April Fool’s joke after a phone call from ABC Entertainment President Stephen McPherson.

The duo were particularly grateful to be recognized for their time-travel scenario — a complex narrative line that required five weeks to realize instead of the usual two. "We wanted to work out all the ramifications and bolster that with the humanity of the characters," Cuse said.

[dh4645]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


KJXHG;KAUHS;FD;Usdfdu;UVIs:iuATOU JKBJ.BJ.

YES I AM DRUNK

[il bacio dolce]

:lol I keep forgetting it's Friday, and I'm like why are you drunk so early on a Saturday?
Does your job drive you to drink? Mine does. Lost is my escape from real life :lol

[dh4645]

:lol I keep forgetting it's Friday, and I'm like why are you drunk so early on a Saturday?
Does your job drive you to drink? Mine does. Lost is my escape from real life :lol

HAHA

yes, i am an auditor for the state of PA...

auditing blows....since i would do half the crap the people we audit do..hah

[il bacio dolce]

I haven't done my taxes yet.