Swatztika

[neumdogg]

I haven't posted a thread on this particular board yet, but after what I saw last night, I felt I needed to vent.

I live in Los Angeles, where it seems that everyone here is a Democrat and is very pro-Kerry. I myself am not a Democrat and I will be voting for Bush next week. I am also Jewish

With that said, I was at a hip Hollywood club last night for fashion week in Los Angeles. I saw a girl wearing a shirt that simply said BUSH. However, the letter "S" was replaced with a swatztika.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I am used to the George W. Bush bashing. I had thought that I had seen every t-shirt, until I saw this one. I almost vomited right there. I have never been so discusted in my life. The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

Is this right? Of course, we have freedom of speech, which I am OK with. But what does this fucking bitch know about 6,000,000 Jews dying and then wearing that symbol on her shirt?

[jrock5730]

I haven't posted a thread on this particular board yet, but after what I saw last night, I felt I needed to vent.

I live in Los Angeles, where it seems that everyone here is a Democrat and is very pro-Kerry. I myself am not a Democrat and I will be voting for Bush next week. I am also Jewish

With that said, I was at a hip Hollywood club last night for fashion week in Los Angeles. I saw a girl wearing a shirt that simply said BUSH. However, the letter "S" was replaced with a swatztika.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I am used to the George W. Bush bashing. I had thought that I had seen every t-shirt, until I saw this one. I almost vomited right there. I have never been so discusted in my life. The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

Is this right? Of course, we have freedom of speech, which I am OK with. But what does this fucking bitch know about 6,000,000 Jews dying and then wearing that symbol on her shirt?

She probably knows about as much as you do man. Hate is a powerful thing, and this just goes to show exactly how much hate some people have for Bush. I don't agree with the shirt of course, but I do see where she is coming from, and I also see where you are coming from.

[GreenJester]

Bush rules by his religion, by his singular belief about what the world should be like. He has a "universal" vision for how everyone on the planet should live.

It's not ethnic cleansing, not yet, but it's the same flaw in his character. He's given me no sign that he understands how the real world actually works.

[Dancing Ants]

She probably knows about as much as you do man. Hate is a powerful thing, and this just goes to show exactly how much hate some people have for Bush. I don't agree with the shirt of course, but I do see where she is coming from, and I also see where you are coming from.

Bush isn't close to Hitler.

[DMBSignGuy]

Bush isn't close to Hitler.

Not even close...but there are similarities in their politics. People like to call Bush a facist and all that stuff....hes not, but there are things he's done that have "facist" tendencies. I believe thats what people base thier arguemnts on with the swatztika stuff.

[jrock5730]

Bush isn't close to Hitler.

No shit, nobody said he was, atleast not in this thread.

[crosscg]

If your dealing with far left liberals or far right conservatives they don't care who they are hurting to get thier message across. Because thier opinion is the only one that matters.

[Dancing Ants]

No shit, nobody said he was, atleast not in this thread.

exactly. so everyone's response should have been "that's a dumbass shirt".

[neumdogg]

Bush rules by his religion, by his singular belief about what the world should be like. He has a "universal" vision for how everyone on the planet should live.

It's not ethnic cleansing, not yet, but it's the same flaw in his character. He's given me no sign that he understands how the real world actually works.
That is ridiculous. There will be no ethnic cleansing. I don't see him pushing Christianity on Muslims, only democracy. Now whether you are for that or against that is not the issue. He has NEVER pushed his religion on me, because if he did, I would NEVER consider voting for him. Bush doesnt rule by his religion. He governs WITH his religion. He uses what the Bible has taught him to be a good person, not to force it down your throats.

[DMBSignGuy]

If your dealing with far left liberals or far right conservatives they don't care who they are hurting to get thier message across. Because thier opinion is the only one that matters.

definitly a good point.

[neumdogg]

exactly. so everyone's response should have been "that's a dumbass shirt".
Exactly...

[jrock5730]

exactly. so everyone's response should have been "that's a dumbass shirt".

I do agree its a dumb shirt, but at the same time, like I said before, hate is a powerful thing.

[GreenJester]

That is ridiculous. There will be no ethnic cleansing. I don't see him pushing Christianity on Muslims, only democracy. Now whether you are for that or against that is not the issue. He has NEVER pushed his religion on me, because if he did, I would NEVER consider voting for him. Bush doesnt rule by his religion. He governs WITH his religion. He uses what the Bible has taught him to be a good person, not to force it down your throats.

When you're the leader of the entire country, and you make decisions according to the Bible, you ARE forcing it down people's throats.

I feel like I should say this twice, just to make sure you read and understand.

[Rob]

Not to mention the fact that certain religions and democracy do NOT go hand in hand.

[DMBSignGuy]

:thumbsup Not to mention the fact that certain religions and democracy do NOT go hand in hand.

though I'd say...all religions and government do not go hand it hand.

[System]

I haven't posted a thread on this particular board yet, but after what I saw last night, I felt I needed to vent.

I live in Los Angeles, where it seems that everyone here is a Democrat and is very pro-Kerry. I myself am not a Democrat and I will be voting for Bush next week. I am also Jewish

With that said, I was at a hip Hollywood club last night for fashion week in Los Angeles. I saw a girl wearing a shirt that simply said BUSH. However, the letter "S" was replaced with a swatztika.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I am used to the George W. Bush bashing. I had thought that I had seen every t-shirt, until I saw this one. I almost vomited right there. I have never been so discusted in my life. The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

Is this right? Of course, we have freedom of speech, which I am OK with. But what does this fucking bitch know about 6,000,000 Jews dying and then wearing that symbol on her shirt?



Democrats are scared that the Republicans will maintain control of the White House. They are trying to invoke the fear of Bush in the un-educated voter.

Now, join me in mocking liberals (only during election time, after that..most are great friends and family of mine)

[GreenJester]

Democrats are scared that the Republicans will maintain control of the White House. They are trying to invoke the fear of Bush in the un-educated voter.

Now, join me in mocking liberals (only during election time, after that..most are great friends and family of mine)

I really hope you're joking.

[crosscg]

Democrats are scared that the Republicans will maintain control of the White House. They are trying to invoke the fear of Bush in the un-educated voter.

Now, join me in mocking liberals (only during election time, after that..most are great friends and family of mine)
Republicans do the same thing... they just let you think if Kerry is elected on Nov 3 we will have a damn Jihad in our backyards

[saygoodbye12]

The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

:thumbsup

There are some stupid people in this world...and anyone who would wear that shirt, is one of them.

[GreenJester]

Republicans do the same thing... they just let you think if Kerry is elected on Nov 3 we will have a damn Jihad in our backyards
Thank you! Yes, it's happening on both sides.

On a related note, I don't consider that "they" are "letting" anyone think anything, really... if you don't have a mind of your own and enough intelligence to read through the bullshit to the truth underneath, then stay out of the way.

[EatSleepJeep]

I haven't posted a thread on this particular board yet, but after what I saw last night, I felt I needed to vent.

I live in Los Angeles, where it seems that everyone here is a Democrat and is very pro-Kerry. I myself am not a Democrat and I will be voting for Bush next week. I am also Jewish

With that said, I was at a hip Hollywood club last night for fashion week in Los Angeles. I saw a girl wearing a shirt that simply said BUSH. However, the letter "S" was replaced with a swatztika.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I am used to the George W. Bush bashing. I had thought that I had seen every t-shirt, until I saw this one. I almost vomited right there. I have never been so discusted in my life. The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

Is this right? Of course, we have freedom of speech, which I am OK with. But what does this fucking bitch know about 6,000,000 Jews dying and then wearing that symbol on her shirt?


Looks like it got the desired reaction. If I could find one, I'd wear it just to get a reaction from right wing nutjobs like you. Republicans can be made so angry with so little, but I guess y'all are pretty nervous about losing the white house in January. Well, it's all that can be expected when you let morons get through your convention. McCain would have gotten re-elected because Democrats like me would vote for him. He probably would have caught Bin Laden, too. And maybe just have sent two guys to take care of Saddam: one with a .50 cal and one with a spotting scope.

[crosscg]

Looks like it got the desired reaction. If I could find one, I'd wear it just to get a reaction from right wing nutjobs like you. Republicans can be made so angry with so little
So what are you a left wing nut job? I've seen democrats blow up just as quickly. I think his post had more to do with the swaztika and him being Jewish. Yours obviously had a lot to do with being a hate monger. Funny its usually the democrats crying themselves to sleep over stuff like that...

[neumdogg]

Looks like it got the desired reaction. If I could find one, I'd wear it just to get a reaction from right wing nutjobs like you. Republicans can be made so angry with so little, but I guess y'all are pretty nervous about losing the white house in January. Well, it's all that can be expected when you let morons get through your convention. McCain would have gotten re-elected because Democrats like me would vote for him. He probably would have caught Bin Laden, too. And maybe just have sent two guys to take care of Saddam: one with a .50 cal and one with a spotting scope.
So little? 6,000,000 Jews is not little, you fucking anti-semitic bastard!

[saygoodbye12]

Looks like it got the desired reaction. If I could find one, I'd wear it just to get a reaction from right wing nutjobs like you. Republicans can be made so angry with so little, but I guess y'all are pretty nervous about losing the white house in January.
I would be willing to be that shirt doesn't anger people along party lines. Anyone involved in any way with the Holocaust or who has experienced anti-semitism, would be disgraced by someone wearing a Swastika on their shirt.

[neumdogg]

I sat there with 2 friends, both Jewish and liberals, and they were discusted too. Its like if I wore a shirt that said the "N" word. You think that would fly?!

[EatSleepJeep]

So little? 6,000,000 Jews is not little, you fucking anti-semitic bastard!

I do not hate jews, I am not anti-semitic
My parents are both married, and were at the time of my conception, I am not a bastard.
Nor do I care for people from the University of Spoiled Children.

In actuality 6,000,000 isn't that big of a number either.
What of the 6,000,000 Chinese civilians killed by Japanese war crimes during WWII? Where are your tears for them? What of the additional 10,000,000 Chinese civilians deaths during the WWII fighting between China and Japan? What of the 2,000,000 Chinese killed by the allies during WWII?
That's 18,000,000 dead Chinese in that war; 3 times more.

Here's a table to put in all in perspective.
105M 20th century war deaths
100M Communist deaths (Book of Communist Crimes, Courtois)
100M African Slaves Middle Passage (Lori Robison, absurd)
60-80M Mao 1994 estimate (#1 person)
45M WWII total (World Almanac)
40M Gengis Khan
40M Influenza of 1918, Worldwide [1]
30M Asians WWII
30M Taiping Rebellion (Chris Fitch)
30M Stalin Purge / Famines
30M Mao Tse Tung Famines
30M Mongol rule of China
25M African Slaves Middle Passage (intermediate)
20M Spanish Flu epidemic 1918 ST 2/24/99
20M-30M Chinese killled by Japanese Rape of Nanking
20M-30M Spanish Decline of Incas -History Mexico
20M Non-Japanese Asians WWII
20M Russian WWII (Cris A Fitch)
20M War dead 19th century
20M Black Death Europe 1348-49
15M WWII soldier SciAm Ju2000
11M African slaves brought to New World (CD-ROM, Gregory)
10M Stalin Famine and Executions
10M Chinese civilians WWII
9M Russian Civil Polish Sci Am Ju2000
9M WWI Military SciAm Ju 2000
6.5M Ethnic Poles and Polish Jews, 20% of pop
6M War dead 18th century, 17th century
6M Chinese Civilians (Japanese War Crimes)
6M Jewish Holocaust (TM, standard figure disputed by
revisionists)
3-6M Died on African slave ships (Black Voyage)
5M Korean War civ+mil (Aviation Week)
3M German soldiers WWII(A. Beyer)
3-10M Congo Free State 1886-1808 (Matthew White)
3M German prisoners / Russia (Foot Soldier)
********** TOP ALLIED ***********************************
3M Japanese WWII
3M Bangladesh Hindu 1971
2.7M French-Am Vietnam SciAm Hu2000
2.5M Napoleonic Wars 1803-1815 SciAm Ju2000
2M 1945 Treaty "Relocations"
2M Vietnam war 1960-75 all sides
2M Vietnam civilians Vietnam Govt est.
2M Chinese WWII
2M Cambodia Killing Fields (TM) Pol Pot ('96)
1.5-2M WWII bombing by all sides "War to be Won, Murray & Millett"
1.5M 20th century earthquakes (savage earth pbs)
1.5M War dead 16th century
1.5M SovAfganistan SciAm Jun2000
1.5M Rwanda / Burundi
1.5M Afghanistan war deaths 1981-2001
1.5M Armenian Genocide (TM)
1.2M Tibet by Chinese since 1950 (Matthew White)
1.1M Azeris by Armenians
1.1M All US War Casualties
1M Muslims in 1952-1962 Algerian War
1M Chin Great Wall construction
1M Bangladesh by Pakistan
1M Irish famine deaths to starvation / disease
1M German soldiers (A. Beyer, revisionist)
1M WWII conventional bombing (PBS Oppenheimer)
1M Chinese Korean War (Cris A Fitch)
750K Vietnam refugees who successfully fled in late 1970s
700K Thought to be killed in Roman Coliseum for public entertainment
650k Slaves brought to US (gregory)
610K Total US-Japan B-29 raids
600K Khmer Health est 1969 Cambodia bombings ???
600K high estimate of allied bombing of Germany
600K US Civil War #1 US
500K Australian aborigines
500K Cambodians by US bombing (Naom Chomsky)
500K Spanish Flu United States 1918-19
500K Idi Amin 1971-79
400K North Korean political prisons US News 2003
400K Vietnam civilian deaths due to communist shelling, rocket, attacks [3]
400K Type A flu epidemics USA since emergence
400K US AIDS deaths to 1998
350K Nuclar bomb deaths
300K Japan forced labor
300K Jews and others in German prison camps (revisionist, boo, hiss)
300K Germans killed by allied bombing WWII
300K Iran/Iraq Gulf War
290K US WWII deaths #2 US
260K Japan conventional bombing deaths
250K High Japan Retaliation for Doolittle Raid (air magazine)
235K Battle of Okinawa, all sides
225K ARVN S. Vietnam combat (Chomsky)
200K Philippines rebellion incl starvation
200K Guatemala generals (Cockburn)
200K Rape of Nanjing(TM)
200K Children sacrificed in Carthage over 200 years.
161K Indonesia volcanos, total
150K 1908 Messina Earthquake
150K Common estimate of Iraqi troops Gulf War
150K Yugoslavia breakup
116K US World War I #4 US
100K Japanese withdrawal from Manila
100K US share of slaves died in transport
80K US WWII allied aircrew losses
80K French in 1952-1962 Algerian War
70K Asian Flu 1957-58 United States
70K Nagasaki
70K Dresden Fire Bombing
60K Japanese POW in Russia
58K Vietnam War US military #4 US
57k US seamen WWII
54K US Korean War #5 US
51K German bombings of UK
50-100K Died in boats fleeing Vietnam communists [3]
50K Claims of US Vietnam civilian bombing deaths [3]
47K Bataan death march / battle
42K London Blitz WWII
36417 Krakatoa tsunami 1883 (Kra..the day)
30K US airmen Europe WWII
30K Mid estimate of Iraq Gulf War
30K Low Japan Retaliation for Doolittle Raid (History Channel)
26k US annual intentional shootings / suicide
28K St Pierre Martinique volcano may 1902
25K German U Boat crew WWII
25K 1973 Arab Israeli war
25K 1967 Arab Israeli war
23k 1985 Nevado del Ruiz volcano mud flow
22K Boer concentration camps under 16
20K V-2 slave labor force deaths
20K Zimbabwe 1982 Nbedeles by Shona tribe
18K Taiwan 1947 riot suppression
18K Cholera Plague Paris 1932 water
17K WWI Aircrew (Wings)
16K 1841 British withdrawal from Kabul 1 survivor
14K Ferries 1980-2000
12K POWS "River Kawai" railway
3-12k low est. Iraqi troops, ground 1991 based
10-100K 1950s Vietnam communist executions in land reforms [3]
10k USA annual accidental injury / death shootings
10k Gloucester fisherman lost at sea
9,345 Wilhelm Gustoff sinking 1945
8,000 Galveston 1900 Hurricane #1 US Nat Disaster
5k-7k 5,534 to 7,207 Iraq Body Count 2003 War
7,000 Chernobyl explosion 1986
6,800 US Merchant Marine WWII
6,500 German V-1 buzz bombs
6,000 US Revolutionary War
5,000 9/11/2001 airliner attacks in DC/WTC
5,000 Kobe earthquake
5,000 Philipines ferry worst ship ever
3,200 Northern Ireland Violence
4,000 Sultana civil war ship explosion
3,000 2003 France heat wave, lack of a/c
3,000 US Helicopter Vietnam crews, 2nd only to infantry
2,403 Pearl Harbor Attack (US)
2,278 US Desert Storm, Iraqi Civilans
2,048 Italy 1963 landslide into dam
1,522 Titanic sinking
1,426 1990 Mecca pedestrian tunnel
1,100 1979 Sverdlosk Russia anthrax outbreak
1,000 Hanoi civilians 1972 Christmas B-52 bombings
913+Jonestown mass suicide / murder
756 Killed seeking north pole before Peary
500 AP Afghanistan civilians 2001
500 Actual Iraqi bodies recovered by Allies 1991
500 Somalia 1993 US raid, civilians and armed
460 Spanish American war US WSJ 7/2/03
425 NY Times survey of rampage killings since 1949
400 Iraqi claims of bomb shelter hit, 1991
400 Hi estimate of My Lai massacre
320 Port Chicago blast (202 black)
300 Queen Mary burns protestants at the stake 1555
266 Battleship Maine explosion
240 Desert Storm Coalition Casualties
200 WWII US Women casualties
1-200 Paris massacre October 17, 1961 100-200 Algerians killed and
dumped in the Seine).
100s Killed in Vietnam by old bombs annually
100 US Firemen killed annually
146 US Desert Storm Casualties
120 Mountain Meadows Massacre 1857, Mormons
45 1927 school bombing
39 DC Race Riot of 1919
38 Los Angeles Rodney King Riot 1992
34 Los Angeles Watts Riot 1965
31 US Berlin Airlift 189,963 sorties
18 US Battle of Mogadishu Somalia
8 Vietnam US Nurses
3 Bellingham WA gasoline pipeline explosion 1999

[saygoodbye12]

In actuality 6,000,000 isn't that big of a number either.
What of the 6,000,000 Chinese civilians killed by Japanese war crimes during WWII? Where are your tears for them? What of the additional 10,000,000 Chinese civilians deaths during the WWII fighting between China and Japan? What of the 2,000,000 Chinese killed by the allies during WWII?
That's 18,000,000 dead Chinese in that war; 3 times more.

Do you know the meaning of the word genocide?

And who said anything about not caring for the people of China who were killed? We were talking about the 6 million people who were ripped from their families, tortured in concentration camps and burned in ovens.

Just because more people died in China, doesn't mean 6 MILLION PEOPLE dying simply because of who they are is not a big number. Get a fucking clue.

[crosscg]

I do not hate jews, I am not anti-semitic
My parents are both married, and were at the time of my conception, I am not a bastard.
Nor do I care for people from the University of Spoiled Children.

In actuality 6,000,000 isn't that big of a number either.
What of the 6,000,000 Chinese civilians killed by Japanese war crimes during WWII? Where are your tears for them? What of the additional 10,000,000 Chinese civilians deaths during the WWII fighting between China and Japan? What of the 2,000,000 Chinese killed by the allies during WWII?
That's 18,000,000 dead Chinese in that war; 3 times more.

Here's a table to put in all in perspective.
105M 20th century war deaths
100M Communist deaths (Book of Communist Crimes, Courtois)
100M African Slaves Middle Passage (Lori Robison, absurd)
60-80M Mao 1994 estimate (#1 person)
45M WWII total (World Almanac)
40M Gengis Khan
40M Influenza of 1918, Worldwide [1]
30M Asians WWII
30M Taiping Rebellion (Chris Fitch)
30M Stalin Purge / Famines
30M Mao Tse Tung Famines
30M Mongol rule of China
25M African Slaves Middle Passage (intermediate)
20M Spanish Flu epidemic 1918 ST 2/24/99
20M-30M Chinese killled by Japanese Rape of Nanking
20M-30M Spanish Decline of Incas -History Mexico
20M Non-Japanese Asians WWII
20M Russian WWII (Cris A Fitch)
20M War dead 19th century
20M Black Death Europe 1348-49
15M WWII soldier SciAm Ju2000
11M African slaves brought to New World (CD-ROM, Gregory)
10M Stalin Famine and Executions
10M Chinese civilians WWII
9M Russian Civil Polish Sci Am Ju2000
9M WWI Military SciAm Ju 2000
6.5M Ethnic Poles and Polish Jews, 20% of pop
6M War dead 18th century, 17th century
6M Chinese Civilians (Japanese War Crimes)
6M Jewish Holocaust (TM, standard figure disputed by
revisionists)
3-6M Died on African slave ships (Black Voyage)
5M Korean War civ+mil (Aviation Week)
3M German soldiers WWII(A. Beyer)
3-10M Congo Free State 1886-1808 (Matthew White)
3M German prisoners / Russia (Foot Soldier)
********** TOP ALLIED ***********************************
3M Japanese WWII
3M Bangladesh Hindu 1971
2.7M French-Am Vietnam SciAm Hu2000
2.5M Napoleonic Wars 1803-1815 SciAm Ju2000
2M 1945 Treaty "Relocations"
2M Vietnam war 1960-75 all sides
2M Vietnam civilians Vietnam Govt est.
2M Chinese WWII
2M Cambodia Killing Fields (TM) Pol Pot ('96)
1.5-2M WWII bombing by all sides "War to be Won, Murray & Millett"
1.5M 20th century earthquakes (savage earth pbs)
1.5M War dead 16th century
1.5M SovAfganistan SciAm Jun2000
1.5M Rwanda / Burundi
1.5M Afghanistan war deaths 1981-2001
1.5M Armenian Genocide (TM)
1.2M Tibet by Chinese since 1950 (Matthew White)
1.1M Azeris by Armenians
1.1M All US War Casualties
1M Muslims in 1952-1962 Algerian War
1M Chin Great Wall construction
1M Bangladesh by Pakistan
1M Irish famine deaths to starvation / disease
1M German soldiers (A. Beyer, revisionist)
1M WWII conventional bombing (PBS Oppenheimer)
1M Chinese Korean War (Cris A Fitch)
750K Vietnam refugees who successfully fled in late 1970s
700K Thought to be killed in Roman Coliseum for public entertainment
650k Slaves brought to US (gregory)
610K Total US-Japan B-29 raids
600K Khmer Health est 1969 Cambodia bombings ???
600K high estimate of allied bombing of Germany
600K US Civil War #1 US
500K Australian aborigines
500K Cambodians by US bombing (Naom Chomsky)
500K Spanish Flu United States 1918-19
500K Idi Amin 1971-79
400K North Korean political prisons US News 2003
400K Vietnam civilian deaths due to communist shelling, rocket, attacks [3]
400K Type A flu epidemics USA since emergence
400K US AIDS deaths to 1998
350K Nuclar bomb deaths
300K Japan forced labor
300K Jews and others in German prison camps (revisionist, boo, hiss)
300K Germans killed by allied bombing WWII
300K Iran/Iraq Gulf War
290K US WWII deaths #2 US
260K Japan conventional bombing deaths
250K High Japan Retaliation for Doolittle Raid (air magazine)
235K Battle of Okinawa, all sides
225K ARVN S. Vietnam combat (Chomsky)
200K Philippines rebellion incl starvation
200K Guatemala generals (Cockburn)
200K Rape of Nanjing(TM)
200K Children sacrificed in Carthage over 200 years.
161K Indonesia volcanos, total
150K 1908 Messina Earthquake
150K Common estimate of Iraqi troops Gulf War
150K Yugoslavia breakup
116K US World War I #4 US
100K Japanese withdrawal from Manila
100K US share of slaves died in transport
80K US WWII allied aircrew losses
80K French in 1952-1962 Algerian War
70K Asian Flu 1957-58 United States
70K Nagasaki
70K Dresden Fire Bombing
60K Japanese POW in Russia
58K Vietnam War US military #4 US
57k US seamen WWII
54K US Korean War #5 US
51K German bombings of UK
50-100K Died in boats fleeing Vietnam communists [3]
50K Claims of US Vietnam civilian bombing deaths [3]
47K Bataan death march / battle
42K London Blitz WWII
36417 Krakatoa tsunami 1883 (Kra..the day)
30K US airmen Europe WWII
30K Mid estimate of Iraq Gulf War
30K Low Japan Retaliation for Doolittle Raid (History Channel)
26k US annual intentional shootings / suicide
28K St Pierre Martinique volcano may 1902
25K German U Boat crew WWII
25K 1973 Arab Israeli war
25K 1967 Arab Israeli war
23k 1985 Nevado del Ruiz volcano mud flow
22K Boer concentration camps under 16
20K V-2 slave labor force deaths
20K Zimbabwe 1982 Nbedeles by Shona tribe
18K Taiwan 1947 riot suppression
18K Cholera Plague Paris 1932 water
17K WWI Aircrew (Wings)
16K 1841 British withdrawal from Kabul 1 survivor
14K Ferries 1980-2000
12K POWS "River Kawai" railway
3-12k low est. Iraqi troops, ground 1991 based
10-100K 1950s Vietnam communist executions in land reforms [3]
10k USA annual accidental injury / death shootings
10k Gloucester fisherman lost at sea
9,345 Wilhelm Gustoff sinking 1945
8,000 Galveston 1900 Hurricane #1 US Nat Disaster
5k-7k 5,534 to 7,207 Iraq Body Count 2003 War
7,000 Chernobyl explosion 1986
6,800 US Merchant Marine WWII
6,500 German V-1 buzz bombs
6,000 US Revolutionary War
5,000 9/11/2001 airliner attacks in DC/WTC
5,000 Kobe earthquake
5,000 Philipines ferry worst ship ever
3,200 Northern Ireland Violence
4,000 Sultana civil war ship explosion
3,000 2003 France heat wave, lack of a/c
3,000 US Helicopter Vietnam crews, 2nd only to infantry
2,403 Pearl Harbor Attack (US)
2,278 US Desert Storm, Iraqi Civilans
2,048 Italy 1963 landslide into dam
1,522 Titanic sinking
1,426 1990 Mecca pedestrian tunnel
1,100 1979 Sverdlosk Russia anthrax outbreak
1,000 Hanoi civilians 1972 Christmas B-52 bombings
913+Jonestown mass suicide / murder
756 Killed seeking north pole before Peary
500 AP Afghanistan civilians 2001
500 Actual Iraqi bodies recovered by Allies 1991
500 Somalia 1993 US raid, civilians and armed
460 Spanish American war US WSJ 7/2/03
425 NY Times survey of rampage killings since 1949
400 Iraqi claims of bomb shelter hit, 1991
400 Hi estimate of My Lai massacre
320 Port Chicago blast (202 black)
300 Queen Mary burns protestants at the stake 1555
266 Battleship Maine explosion
240 Desert Storm Coalition Casualties
200 WWII US Women casualties
1-200 Paris massacre October 17, 1961 100-200 Algerians killed and
dumped in the Seine).
100s Killed in Vietnam by old bombs annually
100 US Firemen killed annually
146 US Desert Storm Casualties
120 Mountain Meadows Massacre 1857, Mormons
45 1927 school bombing
39 DC Race Riot of 1919
38 Los Angeles Rodney King Riot 1992
34 Los Angeles Watts Riot 1965
31 US Berlin Airlift 189,963 sorties
18 US Battle of Mogadishu Somalia
8 Vietnam US Nurses
3 Bellingham WA gasoline pipeline explosion 1999
Thats like someone killing your parents and you saying no big deal he only killed 2 people of no real value. But on the other hand its pointless mentioning that because that apparently would be your reaction. I hope you never need to console a friend. Of course that would be assuming someone who places no value on life has friends.

[neumdogg]

We are not having a contest here to see who had more people who died. That has nothing to do with it. I believe by wearing that shirt, you are ignorant to the world around you. How can you wear something like that, that you know will offend survivors of the holocaust. My three uncles did not die in Aushwitz for someone to sport a Swatztika today. You wear that shirt, than you are anti-semitic.

[jrock5730]

The shirt is not meant to offend Jews, so get over yourself already. Its obviously meant to be an attention grabber, and in your case, it worked very well. Eatsleepjeep has a good point, as those numbers are pretty scary. I hate it for your kin that died, but please, your making this out into much more than it really is.

[saygoodbye12]

The shirt is not meant to offend Jews, so get over yourself already. Its obviously meant to be an attention grabber, and in your case, it worked very well. Eatsleepjeep has a good point, as those numbers are pretty scary. I hate it for your kin that died, but please, your making this out into much more than it really is.
:lol:lol

It is unbelievable what lengths people will go to, to tow the party line. It really is.

[neumdogg]

The shirt is not meant to offend Jews, so get over yourself already. Its obviously meant to be an attention grabber, and in your case, it worked very well. Eatsleepjeep has a good point, as those numbers are pretty scary. I hate it for your kin that died, but please, your making this out into much more than it really is.
The simple idea that you are justifying it is appaulling. DO you have any idea of what the symbol represents?

[crosscg]

The shirt is not meant to offend Jews, so get over yourself already. Its obviously meant to be an attention grabber, and in your case, it worked very well. Eatsleepjeep has a good point, as those numbers are pretty scary. I hate it for your kin that died, but please, your making this out into much more than it really is.
So then suddenly the war in Iraq is a great thing because by his standards hardly anyone has died! WooHoo! Lets invade everyone! One has nothing to do with the other and the only reason you two are saying it is ok is because you are too partisan to care about anyone on the other side.

[EatSleepJeep]

News Flash, University of Spolied Children!
The shirt is protected speech by the First Ammendment to the Constitution of The United States of America and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Every life is precious to somebody, but you decided to pull out the volume argument. Before I posted that list, you had no idea how many ethnic Chinese were eliminated during WWII. You thought 6,000,000 was a big number. Otherwise you would have typed "6 million". How does 18 million, or 30 million, or 120 million grab you? Apparently, those people don't matter to you one bit. The act of genocide by the Nazi party during WWII was atrocious, but Stalin killed many more of his citizens, as did Mao. Atrocities are horrible, but if you refer to me as an anti-semitic bastard, I'm going to put you in your comfortable place.

I've been to Auschwitz. Have you? I've also visited Moscow and seen the area where the Soviet people repelled the invasion of Hitler's tanks. I have seen the WWII memorials there; they lost 20,000,000 citizens in that war. The veterans still wear their medals, and they cry when an American shakes their hand and says "Thank you." They cannot speak of the death they've seen. If that wasn't enough to recover from, their own leader turned on them and killed another 30,000,000. Get out of LA and see the real world, kid. The air and culture is rotting your brain.

[seahawk16]

Where are all the bleading-heart liberals on this site? The people who scream bloody murder for wearing fur. Those who cry in outrage if I say retarded person and not mentally handicapped? Those who are disgusted by the fact that I drive an SUV, or if anyone utters an ethnic slur(such as, "Go Braves", or "Let's Go Fighting Irish") Where are the PC brothers and sisters of this board? I for one thought for sure one of you would stand up and say that the swatztika was a symbol of hatred and should never be presented in that fashion. am I wrong? Is political correctness only necessary when it is not aimed at bashing a Republican?

[EatSleepJeep]

Where are all the bleading[bleeding]-heart liberals on this site?I'm a liberal. The people who scream bloody murder for wearing fur. I don't care about fur. I hunt. Those who cry in outrage if I say retarded person and not mentally handicapped? No position. Those who are disgusted by the fact that I drive an SUV,I drive the original SUV. Offroad, too. Not just to the mall like you do. or if anyone utters an ethnic slur(such as, "Go Braves", or "Let's Go Fighting Irish") I don't like the Braves, or the Indians, or the Redskins. I'm a Twins and Vikings fan. I am also Notre Dame supporter. Where are the PC brothers and sisters of this board? I for one thought for sure one of you would stand up and say that the swatztika was a symbol of hatred and should never be presented in that fashion. am I wrong? Is political correctness only necessary when it is not aimed at bashing a Republican?

Quit stereotyping, and pay attention to your own words.

[jrock5730]

So then suddenly the war in Iraq is a great thing because by his standards hardly anyone has died! WooHoo! Lets invade everyone! One has nothing to do with the other and the only reason you two are saying it is ok is because you are too partisan to care about anyone on the other side.

Learn how to read man, I never once said the shirt was "ok". Once you learn how to read, get back with me.

[neumdogg]

News Flash, University of Spolied Children!
The shirt is protected speech by the First Ammendment to the Constitution of The United States of America and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Every life is precious to somebody, but you decided to pull out the volume argument. Before I posted that list, you had no idea how many ethnic Chinese were eliminated during WWII. You thought 6,000,000 was a big number. Otherwise you would have typed "6 million". How does 18 million, or 30 million, or 120 million grab you? Apparently, those people don't matter to you one bit. The act of genocide by the Nazi party during WWII was atrocious, but Stalin killed many more of his citizens, as did Mao. Atrocities are horrible, but if you refer to me as an anti-semitic bastard, I'm going to put you in your comfortable place.

I've been to Auschwitz. Have you? I've also visited Moscow and seen the area where the Soviet people repelled the invasion of Hitler's tanks. I have seen the WWII memorials there; they lost 20,000,000 citizens in that war. The veterans still wear their medals, and they cry when an American shakes their hand and says "Thank you." They cannot speak of the death they've seen. If that wasn't enough to recover from, their own leader turned on them and killed another 30,000,000. Get out of LA and see the real world, kid. The air and culture is rotting your brain.
Apparently, the Iowa school system didnt teach you how to read.....and I thought the California school system was awful.

I said that I believe in freedom of speech and she can wear whatever she wants to. My question is, was it right? Is it right to use a symbol that represents what it does on your shirt?! Plus, this girl was Asian. If Hitler had his way, he would have eliminated her as well! It doesnt make any sense!

But the fact that you said that you would wear a shirt like that makes me think you're an anti-semite.

And stop with the USC bashing.....it just makes you look like a pathetic fuck.
And stop arguing that more people died here and more people died there....it has no weight in the discussion.

[DMBSignGuy]

The simple idea that you are justifying it is appaulling. DO you have any idea of what the symbol represents?

And that person has the right to wear that shirt...regardless of how appaulling it is.

[jrock5730]

The simple idea that you are justifying it is appaulling. DO you have any idea of what the symbol represents?

Two words: Fuck Off.

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

It represents a few different things my friend, and its been around longer than any other symbol pretty much.

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm


One would think that a person such as yourself would know how to spell the word that stands for so much pain and suffering of his own people.

[neumdogg]

Two words: Fuck Off.

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

It represents a few different things my friend, and its been around longer than any other symbol pretty much.

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm


One would think that a person such as yourself would know how to spell the word that stands for so much pain and suffering of his own people.
YOu're an idiot......if you show that symbol to people, what is the first thing that pops into their minds? NAZI. Whether it meant something before is a moot point. Its what is represents NOW that makes a difference.

[DMBSignGuy]

I said that I believe in freedom of speech and she can wear whatever she wants to. My question is, was it right? Is it right to use a symbol that represents what it does on your shirt?! Plus, this girl was Asian. If Hitler had his way, he would have eliminated her as well! It doesnt make any sense!

Thats a very stacked question. If someone wears a KKK shirt is it right? If you believe in the 1st amendment...post the link...call her a nut and move on.

If Hitler had his way he'd of annexed Ukraine, built a huge wall and deported all the Russians to the other side of it. Nothing about asians in his plan. That would have been up to Japan...again if Hitler won.

But the fact that you said that you would wear a shirt like that makes me think you're an anti-semite.

depends on the message being conveyed. as is the case with this girl. and the Nazi Germany was more than just the hatred of jews.

And stop arguing that more people died here and more people died there....it has no weight in the discussion.

true...and neither does calling someone anti-semitic.

And stop with the USC bashing

but its USC...ewwww :p

[jrock5730]

YOu're an idiot......if you show that symbol to people, what is the first thing that pops into their minds? NAZI. Whether it meant something before is a moot point. Its what is represents NOW that makes a difference.

Oh ok, just throw history out the window please. Give me a break man, the whole point is, the fucking shirt is an attention grabber, and it has a tight grip on yours. It only makes a difference if you let it. Kiss my ass.

[clemson357]

Bush rules by his religion, by his singular belief about what the world should be like. He has a "universal" vision for how everyone on the planet should live.

It's not ethnic cleansing, not yet, but it's the same flaw in his character. He's given me no sign that he understands how the real world actually works.

your beliefs are truly disturbing sometimes

"It's not ethnic cleansing, not yet..."

[clemson357]

Two words: Fuck Off.


another extremely intelligent point.

[neumdogg]

Oh ok, just throw history out the window please. Give me a break man, the whole point is, the fucking shirt is an attention grabber, and it has a tight grip on yours. It only makes a difference if you let it. Kiss my ass.
When it pisses off other Jews who are complete left wing Democrats, is that what it's trying to do?!

[EatSleepJeep]

Apparently, the Iowa school system didnt teach you how to read.....and I thought the California school system was awful.
Another News Flash, Valley Girl:
I'm not a product of the Iowa school system(#8). I was mostly educated in Minnesota(#7), but you are right, California is stupid(#43). At least their 55 electorals are going to the better candidate.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/package.jsp?name=fte/smartstates/smartstates
I said that I believe in freedom of speech and she can wear whatever she wants to. My question is, was it right? Is it right to use a symbol that represents what it does on your shirt?! Plus, this girl was Asian. If Hitler had his way, he would have eliminated her as well! It doesnt make any sense!

But the fact that you said that you would wear a shirt like that makes me think you're an anti-semite.
Nope, Just anti-you
And stop with the USC bashing.....it just makes you look like a pathetic fuck. Intelligent response
And stop arguing that more people died here and more people died there....it has no weight in the discussion.
It carries a lot of weight, you're bent out of shape over a symbol that cost 6,000,000 jewish lives. Would you be three times as upset if I wore the Rising Sun flag of the Japanese responsible for 18,000,000 Chinese Lives? I think not.

[jrock5730]

When it pisses off other Jews who are complete left wing Democrats, is that what it's trying to do?!

I am sure the shirt pisses off any Jew, Republican or Democrat. You should of just confronted this person, maybe then you would find out why she would wear a shirt like that.

[neumdogg]

Another News Flash, Valley Girl:
I'm not a product of the Iowa school system(#8). I was mostly educated in Minnesota(#7), but you are right, California is stupid(#43). At least their 55 electorals are going to the better candidate.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/package.jsp?name=fte/smartstates/smartstates

Nope, Just anti-you
Intelligent response
It carries a lot of weight, you're bent out of shape over a symbol that cost 6,000,000 jewish lives. Would you be three times as upset if I wore the Rising Sun flag of the Japanese responsible for 18,000,000 Chinese Lives? I think not.
Let me ask you a question.....what ethnicity are you? what religion are you?

[jrock5730]

Let me ask you a question.....what ethnicity are you? what religion are you?

Its getting personal in here isn't it?

[EatSleepJeep]

Let me ask you a question.....what ethnicity are you? what religion are you?

You misspelled Swastika!

I'm an American.

I prefer to keep my religious beliefs private.

[DMBSignGuy]

but you are right, California is stupid(#43)

hey i resent that :p

[jrock5730]

You misspelled Swastika!

I'm an American.

I prefer to keep my religious beliefs private.

Yeah, one would think he could spell something he felt soooo strongly about right?

[neumdogg]

You misspelled Swastika!

I'm an American.

I prefer to keep my religious beliefs private.
Fine....i can't argue anymore. There is no winning or losing with you. Just constant back and forth. Anll I want you to realize is that its an AWFUL symbol that should not be used in that kind of jest. It makes me feel like my relatives died for nothing....

[DMBSignGuy]

Fine....i can't argue anymore. There is no winning or losing with you. Just constant back and forth. Anll I want you to realize is that its an AWFUL symbol that should not be used in that kind of jest. It makes me feel like my relatives died for nothing....

That symbol does represent an awful part of history. No your relatives didnt die for nothing. But the whole point of a shirt like that is to make people mad. Your letting the person who wore it win by being so upset by it. Just let it go or talk with whoever wore it.

[jrock5730]

Fine....i can't argue anymore. There is no winning or losing with you. Just constant back and forth. Anll I want you to realize is that its an AWFUL symbol that should not be used in that kind of jest. It makes me feel like my relatives died for nothing....

We do realize that the symbol is not nice, and its stupid to put on a shirt, but you are making a huge deal out of this. And for you not to be able to take the time to check the spelling just shows how interested in it you really are.

[opiskelija]

it's a bloody t-shirt. I relate completely with your loss during the second war, and before you even question me, please do realize between the Soviets and to some extent the Germans, between my grandparents nations (Estonia and Lithuania) we lost around 850,000 out of 4,000,000 of the 1939 population in the two states. The people lost were replaced by a greater number of ethnic Russians, and endured 50 years of foreign occupation. There is a current fad for wearing USSR t-shirts with the sickle and hammer. I just ignore them and let them live in their own stupidity. I'm not justifying what the Germans did. I have interviewed Germans who lived during the war, I have been to the Polish camps, I have been around and know everything concerning this period. But to let a little asshole in california get you upset over a shirt is a bit ridiculous. Yes, the swatztika has turned into a symbol of hate. But why must you concentrate on that aspect rather than letting them live their lives of stupidity and acknowledge the endurance, sacrifice, and successes of your people?

[saygoodbye12]

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

It represents a few different things my friend, and its been around longer than any other symbol pretty much.
Ah..what a dumb mistake. She obviously was using the swastika as a good luck symbol in Bush's name because she wants to see him re-elected!!!

[DMBSignGuy]

Ah..what a dumb mistake. She obviously was using the swastika as a good luck symbol in Bush's name because she wants to see him re-elected!!!

cause she was really wearing it to be anti-semitic too huh?

[Katedidnt]

I would be willing to be that shirt doesn't anger people along party lines. Anyone involved in any way with the Holocaust or who has experienced anti-semitism, would be disgraced by someone wearing a Swastika on their shirt.
:thumbsup My grandmother grew up in Germany during the war and her family suffered greatly due to the Nazis. Her best friend and her mother were sent to Auschwitz, and her Christian uncle was sent to Buchenwald. I'm disgusted by the idea of that shirt, and if I had seen the girl wearing it, I would have asked her what SHE thought it meant. And then I'd go on to tell her what it means to my family and the families of millions of other people.

This isn't one of those things where you say "don't be so sensitive." That kind of apathy only leads to history repeating itself.

[DMBSignGuy]

I'm disgusted by the idea of that shirt, and if I had seen the girl wearing it, I would have asked her what SHE thought it meant. And then I'd go on to tell her what it means to my family and the families of millions of other people.

now heres the proper respone to that shirt. :thumbsup

[saygoodbye12]

cause she was really wearing it to be anti-semitic too huh?
Did you see me calling her or anyone else that, anywhere in this thread?

No.

The symbol is quite offensive to many people. And that's why she wore it. To be trendy and to try and "make a statement"

I just find it amusing how people stick to their partisanship no matter what.

[saygoodbye12]

:thumbsup My grandmother grew up in Germany during the war and her family suffered greatly due to the Nazis. Her best friend and her mother were sent to Auschwitz, and her Christian uncle was sent to Buchenwald. I'm disgusted by the idea of that shirt, and if I had seen the girl wearing it, I would have asked her what SHE thought it meant. And then I'd go on to tell her what it means to my family and the families of millions of other people.

This isn't one of those things where you say "don't be so sensitive." That kind of apathy only leads to history repeating itself.
She probably wouldn't be able to tell you. People with intelligent thought processes don't need to use outlandish and unfounded crap on their t-shirts to try and get their point across.

[EatSleepJeep]

:thumbsup My grandmother grew up in Germany during the war and her family suffered greatly due to the Nazis. Her best friend and her mother were sent to Auschwitz, and her Christian uncle was sent to Buchenwald. I'm disgusted by the idea of that shirt, and if I had seen the girl wearing it, I would have asked her what SHE thought it meant. And then I'd go on to tell her what it means to my family and the families of millions of other people.

This isn't one of those things where you say "don't be so sensitive." That kind of apathy only leads to history repeating itself.

This is the most intelligent post of this thread, including mine. Thank you for the correct response. Level-headed, sincere, and with an appropriate reaction.

[boilermaker26]

I sat there with 2 friends, both Jewish and liberals, and they were discusted too. Its like if I wore a shirt that said the "N" word. You think that would fly?!

Yet you chose to use the word "bitch" which is a hate term for females. Kinda funny, don't you think?

And it is spelled disgusted.

[mwjorgens]

Democrats are scared that the Republicans will maintain control of the White House. They are trying to invoke the fear of Bush in the un-educated voter.



whoa, someone has that completly backwards. on the topic of the shirt, poor taste. the best shirt ive seen is the bush/cheney logo but it says 1984, where peace means war. good stuff.

[neumdogg]

Yet you chose to use the word "bitch" which is a hate term for females. Kinda funny, don't you think?

And it is spelled disgusted.
When you use that symbol, you offend all Jews. When you use the word bitch, you refer to one person. Im Jewish by blood......she's a bitch for wearing that shirt.

Yes, my spelling is horrible!

[eirikra]

The simple idea that you are justifying it is appaulling. DO you have any idea of what the symbol represents?

The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.


;)

Maybe the tshirt-person was pro-bush after all?

[neumdogg]

The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.


;)

Maybe the tshirt-person was pro-bush after all?
I repeat, you show that symbol to and average citizen, what is the first thing that will pop into their heads?

[WJM-WJM]

The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.


;)

Maybe the tshirt-person was pro-bush after all?

That is interesting and all, but hardly relevant in 2004 on a campaign t shirt.

[AdamCU81]

Who cares what someone wears on their shirt? To some people Bush is as bad or worse than Hitler. Go talk to some people in Iraq whos entire families have been killed for "democracy" and you'll see what I mean. It's all relative.

And saying, "It makes me feel like my relatives died for nothing...." is weak. If a shirt, a symbol on a shirt, makes you feel helpless, get a grip. Focus on the fact that your grandparents did survive and it's that much more phenominal that you're here today typing on your computer.

[boilermaker26]

When you use that symbol, you offend all Jews. When you use the word bitch, you refer to one person. Im Jewish by blood......she's a bitch for wearing that shirt.

Yes, my spelling is horrible!

The word bitch is extremely demeaning to females. It is a hate term. You have no idea what her attitude was. You have no idea what her past was. Yet you chose to use such as "bitch" to describe her. In my opinion, you can not get much more hateful than that.

Sorry you were offended by what you saw. And I agree that it sounds like a stupid idea for a shirt. I think what you said about her being a bitch was extremely hateful.

[eirikra]

I repeat, you show that symbol to and average citizen, what is the first thing that will pop into their heads?

the shoulderpatches the american soldier wore in ww1. definitely!


:ugh:

[eirikra]

That is interesting and all, but hardly relevant in 2004 on a campaign t shirt.

probably not - that wasn't my point either.

Neumdogg asked someone if he/she knew the meaning of the swastika, and gentle as I am I answered for that person.

[erbewoods]

If your dealing with far left liberals or far right conservatives they don't care who they are hurting to get thier message across. Because thier opinion is the only one that matters.

Um, no? And I wouldn't exactly call far left supporters "Kerry supporters" or far right supporters "Bush supporters." If you call the far right Bush supporters, you've tunnel visioned in on the middle of the political spectrum (think Christian Exodus). I'd consider myself on the far left and I dont try to hurt anyone in getting my message across. My ideology is not created for the purpose of telling other people what to do and I try to approach the world in a Gandhian sense, a "non-judgemental justice" of sorts. I love generalizations though, I mean really, your point was great and led to a much better understanding of people and ethics. I now know that all far left liberals and far right conservatives (including myself, obviously) are out to hurt others for the sake of a message.

[brianlisk]

Adam needs to chill out. It's now gotten to a point where he HAS to defend anything that is written. You left yourself wide open. At the Gorge this year, security was being a bunch of tight wad assholes. I called each and every one of them a Nazi. Did that mean that I thought they killed Jews in their spare time?? No. Lesbian man-haters. They are called Femi-nazi's. Is that Anti-semetic?? No. That just means that they HATE men. To me, when I think of the swastika, I think of hatefilled people. Not against just Jews... but against everyone. People who I call Nazi's now, I say because they make life miserable for everyone around them. Yes. It works. Is it appropriate? No. Am I going to stop using that word for that purpose?? No. Could that be the meaning this person was using it for? Possibly.

The best thing you can do is drop it. I assume that you take your religion seriously. If you are as hard core as you are making this out to be, the best thing you can do is to Pray for the people that lost their lives in the Holocost and pray for this young lady to receive wisdom.

[marco j]

When you're the leader of the entire country, and you make decisions according to the Bible, you ARE forcing it down people's throats.

I feel like I should say this twice, just to make sure you read and understand.


:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup


oh yeah Hmmm....http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1312484,00.html

[neumdogg]

ok, so just out of curiosity, for those of you who disagree with me, would buy a shirt like that?

[neumdogg]

ok, so just out of curiosity, for those of you who disagree with me, would buy a shirt like that?

[AnyonebutBush]

I haven't posted a thread on this particular board yet, but after what I saw last night, I felt I needed to vent.

I live in Los Angeles, where it seems that everyone here is a Democrat and is very pro-Kerry. I myself am not a Democrat and I will be voting for Bush next week. I am also Jewish

With that said, I was at a hip Hollywood club last night for fashion week in Los Angeles. I saw a girl wearing a shirt that simply said BUSH. However, the letter "S" was replaced with a swatztika.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I am used to the George W. Bush bashing. I had thought that I had seen every t-shirt, until I saw this one. I almost vomited right there. I have never been so discusted in my life. The use of that symbol on her shirt lessens the impact of what happened to my people 60 years ago.

Is this right? Of course, we have freedom of speech, which I am OK with. But what does this fucking bitch know about 6,000,000 Jews dying and then wearing that symbol on her shirt?Well we havent killed 6,000,000 Iraqi's yet, but its far from over.

[marco j]

ok, so just out of curiosity, for those of you who disagree with me, would buy a shirt like that?


no i'm an adult who wouldn't be seen wearing a swastika because i wouldn't want anyone not thinking far enough ahead to realize i am wearing it to point out bush's right wing neo-con politics.

[saygoodbye12]

no i'm an adult who wouldn't be seen wearing a swastika because i wouldn't want anyone not thinking far enough ahead to realize i am wearing it to point out bush's right wing neo-con politics.
Bush's grandfather financed the Holocaust!!!!!

[DMBSignGuy]

Bush's grandfather financed the Holocaust!!!!!

:eek: holy crap...that must mean president bush is responisble for the holocaust. Hes an evil, evil man :devil




:lol

[greychris]

When you're the leader of the entire country, and you make decisions according to the Bible, you ARE forcing it down people's throats.

I feel like I should say this twice, just to make sure you read and understand.

Wow, a bit of a double standard, right? How would YOU run the country? By your beliefs? By what you feel you are morally obligated to do? But no, far be it from you, to be called a hypocrite. Please, just because he's a Christian means squat. Anyone in a position of power is going to run their leadership given their beliefs. Whether it be Christianity or atheism, makes neither them or you any better.

[Number27]

Bush's grandfather financed the Holocaust!!!!!
There is a connection!

[DMBSignGuy]

Wow, a bit of a double standard, right? How would YOU run the country? By your beliefs? By what you feel you are morally obligated to do? But no, far be it from you, to be called a hypocrite. Please, just because he's a Christian means squat. Anyone in a position of power is going to run their leadership given their beliefs. Whether it be Christianity or atheism, makes neither them or you any better.


There is a huge difference between being religious.....and wearing your religion on your sleeve. Remember God choose Bush to be in office.

[crosscg]

Um, no? And I wouldn't exactly call far left supporters "Kerry supporters" or far right supporters "Bush supporters." If you call the far right Bush supporters, you've tunnel visioned in on the middle of the political spectrum (think Christian Exodus). I'd consider myself on the far left and I dont try to hurt anyone in getting my message across. My ideology is not created for the purpose of telling other people what to do and I try to approach the world in a Gandhian sense, a "non-judgemental justice" of sorts. I love generalizations though, I mean really, your point was great and led to a much better understanding of people and ethics. I now know that all far left liberals and far right conservatives (including myself, obviously) are out to hurt others for the sake of a message.
When did I ever call far left supporters "Kerry supporters" or far right supporters "Bush supporters." ? Looks like you came to that conclusion yourself. There are many moderates that support each of these guys. I only mentioned the far end of the spectrums. Maybe your not as far left as you think. I'm not saying that you are out to hurt anyone either, just that most of the time people on the far end of the spectrums don't care who they hurt getting their message across. But I thank you for adding so many assumptions to what I said so that you would have some worthless bit of whining to put out here.

[GreenJester]

Wow, a bit of a double standard, right? How would YOU run the country? By your beliefs? By what you feel you are morally obligated to do? But no, far be it from you, to be called a hypocrite. Please, just because he's a Christian means squat. Anyone in a position of power is going to run their leadership given their beliefs. Whether it be Christianity or atheism, makes neither them or you any better.
I'm against him running it BY THE BOOK. There is no "one, perfect book" which holds all the truth, all the right answers.

And despite your narrow-minded view of things, Chris, it IS possible to separate your beliefs from how you deal with *real world* from moment-to-moment.

Bush is a caring person but he's under the impression that what his god commands should be the way of the entire world. As long as he buying into the system of Christianity, he will be partially ruled by that system.

I want a president who understands how other people think, not just other Christians. I want a president who will make the best choices when it comes to making this country powerful AND admired in the world--not just the choices his god allows him.

[erbewoods]

When did I ever call far left supporters "Kerry supporters" or far right supporters "Bush supporters." ? Looks like you came to that conclusion yourself. There are many moderates that support each of these guys. I only mentioned the far end of the spectrums. Maybe your not as far left as you think. I'm not saying that you are out to hurt anyone either, just that most of the time people on the far end of the spectrums don't care who they hurt getting their message across. But I thank you for adding so many assumptions to what I said so that you would have some worthless bit of whining to put out here.
Actually, you didn't say "most of the time" on your first go round. My point was this; it does little to just generalize and then make a claim, especially if its of dubious validity. And, obviously, the moderates support one of the two major candidates. Who else would the moderates pull for, Leonard Shelby? Also, I'm not quite sure where you (prior to bashing me for assumptions) assume that I'm not as far left as I think.

[crosscg]

How is stating that you made up things as if they came from me bashing you? Where I come from what you did is called gross exagerration or lying. I'm sorry if I didn't explain that matter in full detail so as not to hurt your poor little feeling. Moderates do support one of the major candidate and it varies from moderate to maderate and some of them such as me could go either way. I take back my assumption about you not being far left, you have made it very obvious you are in your whining. You have also taken a step towards proving my point that the far spectrums will go to any length to get their message out. You did a typical far end tactic, you took my statement, then added whatever you needed to be able to bash it, and then acted as if this new revised statement was my original. How can I argue with someone who makes up things to get his point across? I guess you win this time just as you always will in your own mind.

[erbewoods]

How is stating that you made up things as if they came from me bashing you? Where I come from what you did is called gross exagerration or lying. I'm sorry if I didn't explain that matter in full detail so as not to hurt your poor little feeling. Moderates do support one of the major candidate and it varies from moderate to maderate and some of them such as me could go either way. I take back my assumption about you not being far left, you have made it very obvious you are in your whining. You have also taken a step towards proving my point that the far spectrums will go to any length to get their message out. You did a typical far end tactic, you took my statement, then added whatever you needed to be able to bash it, and then acted as if this new revised statement was my original. How can I argue with someone who makes up things to get his point across? I guess you win this time just as you always will in your own mind.

I'll concede to making those misjudgements and assumptions. I don't mean to come across as attacking you and if you interpret it that way, then I apologize. My only point, is that isn't really fair to make the claim "that If your dealing with far left liberals or far right conservatives they don't care who they are hurting to get thier message across. Because thier opinion is the only one that matters." I don't care to put a swastika on my body, for any reason and I don't believe that many people would do so if they knew it was consciously hurting others or if they were fully aware of its implications. Wouldn't you agree? Even then, the fact that this girl was wearing it, indicates that at LEAST she is okay (she probably isn't the only one) with it but I still don't see the point in lumping her into a political group and then saying that that group is okay with hurting people to get their message across. I suppose a good parallel would be a recent case in which the Pullyap School District cancelled Halloween related events in their schools out of fear that they might offend Wiccans. If one were to generalize, one might say that the Wiccans are to blame, imposing upon the district too sensitive a stance. But this wouldn't reflect the truth, as several practicing Wiccans have stated that they don't care, that stereotypical portrayals of witches on Halloween are no reflection upon them. I just don't believe that generalizing about any group of people is worthwhile. And at any rate, I apologize for anything undue.

[clemson357]

...
Bush is a caring person but he's under the impression that what his god commands should be the way of the entire world. As long as he buying into the system of Christianity, he will be partially ruled by that system.
....


dude, im sorry, that is just wrong. I really think this is the only thing I have ever read on ANTS that is more ridiculous than "bush funded the nazi's"-Marco J

did you watch the debats? in the third debate Bush was asked specifically how his religion affects his decision making, subtract out all the fluff and what he essentially said was that his religion affects him as a person, how he views life, but beyond that it doesn't come in to decisions made for this country.

[clemson357]

Election year really brings the nut cases out of the wood work doesn't it?

[TwoStep2888]

yeah.

[GreenJester]

Yep.

[rapunzelchick]

Oy! I've been reading through this thread and my initial thought was:

I'm Jewish. Am I personally offended by the girl's shirt? Sure. But the First Amendment gives her the right to wear it and I'd rather be offended by her choice of clothing than not have the freedom to express myself however I choose.

The other thing that jumped out at me:

What I also find offensive, though, is a Jew who would overlook one of the central tenets of Judasim, Tikkun Olam (literally "fix the world" i.e., care for the environment), and support a president who has basically undone 40 years of environmental protection progress. What's up with that?

Matthew, my dear, always with the stats! :thumbsup You're a walking encyclopedia, man! New job must have as much downtime as the last, eh? :D BTW, this thread has made me miss P.W. :( I wonder what his thoughts would be?

[neumdogg]

Oy! I've been reading through this thread and my initial thought was:

I'm Jewish. Am I personally offended by the girl's shirt? Sure. But the First Amendment gives her the right to wear it and I'd rather be offended by her choice of clothing than not have the freedom to express myself however I choose.

The other thing that jumped out at me:

What I also find offensive, though, is a Jew who would overlook one of the central tenets of Judasim, Tikkun Olam (literally "fix the world" i.e., care for the environment), and support a president who has basically undone 40 years of environmental protection progress. What's up with that?

Matthew, my dear, always with the stats! :thumbsup You're a walking encyclopedia, man! New job must have as much downtime as the last, eh? :D BTW, this thread has made me miss P.W. :( I wonder what his thoughts would be?
Tikkun Olam doesn't always have to refer to the enviornment. In Judaism, we can do differnent things to make this world a better place. In the eyes of George W. Bush, his idea of healing the world is to stop terrorism and its evil roots. Whether you agree or not with what he is doing in Iraq, he is still trying to heal the world.

[greychris]

There is a huge difference between being religious.....and wearing your religion on your sleeve. Remember God choose Bush to be in office.

No, not for a Christian. If you're a Christian, Christ is everything.

[DMBSignGuy]

dude, im sorry, that is just wrong. I really think this is the only thing I have ever read on ANTS that is more ridiculous than "bush funded the nazi's"-Marco J

did you watch the debats? in the third debate Bush was asked specifically how his religion affects his decision making, subtract out all the fluff and what he essentially said was that his religion affects him as a person, how he views life, but beyond that it doesn't come in to decisions made for this country.

Whats ridiculous is that you believed him. :lol

[DMBSignGuy]

No, not for a Christian. If you're a Christian, Christ is everything.

And that response has nothing to do with wearing your religion on your sleeve or not.

[mwjorgens]

ok, so just out of curiosity, for those of you who disagree with me, would buy a shirt like that?
was it 100% cotton? how was the stitch work

[rapunzelchick]

Tikkun Olam doesn't always have to refer to the enviornment. In Judaism, we can do differnent things to make this world a better place. In the eyes of George W. Bush, his idea of healing the world is to stop terrorism and its evil roots. Whether you agree or not with what he is doing in Iraq, he is still trying to heal the world.
You're right, Tikkun Olam doesn't always only have to refer to the environment. I just don't see how anyone who supports the notion of Tikkun Olam in general can overlook Bush's terrible record on the environment. Unless you assume Bush is hoping that the overabundance of greenhouse gasses will make the terrorists evaporate. :rolleyes:

[jrock5730]

You're right, Tikkun Olam doesn't always only have to refer to the environment. I just don't see how anyone who supports the notion of Tikkun Olam in general can overlook Bush's terrible record on the environment. Unless you assume Bush is hoping that the overabundance of greenhouse gasses will make the terrorists evaporate. :rolleyes:


:lol

[GreenJester]

No, not for a Christian. If you're a Christian, Christ is everything.
Thank you for outlining, succinctly, the problem with having a devout Christian playing president.



Of course, he's not that devout... when those terrorists took down the WTC, Bush really should have just, you know, "turned the other cheek" and let them bomb anything they wanted. Because this life isn't important, really. Just the afterlife.


I think I'm going to throw up now...

[neumdogg]

Each president cannot accommodate everyone's request to healing the world. Apparently to you, the notion of a better environment is the top mark. To me, bringing freedom to foreign countries who live under terrible governments is my priority. Personally, I don’t see how anyone who supports Tikkun Olam can be against bringing freedom to other human beings. Unless you think pumping more money into out environment while cutting down our defenses, until we are attack by terrorists again...:D

[rapunzelchick]

To me, bringing freedom to foreign countries who live under terrible governments is my priority.
Your priority over solving the health insurance crisis in our own country? Over ending our dependency on foreign countries to fuel our SUVs with oil? Over the trampling of our own civil liberties in the name of "national security?" Over millions of Americans who have lost their jobs?

Wait, now that I read what I just wrote I realize WE live under a terrible government! Well, great then, turns out ousting Bush IS your priority!

Personally, I don’t see how anyone who supports Tikkun Olam can be against bringing freedom to other human beings.
At what point did I say I opposed it? In fact, I don't recall ever mentioning Iraq (I'm assuming that is the freedom to which you are referring). I guess it goes back to the priorities. My priority is the people in our own country. It's not our job to police the world.

[DMBSignGuy]

To me, bringing freedom to foreign countries who live under terrible governments is my priority.

Its not Bush's...thats not why we invaded Iraq. lets recall.
1. Imminent/Immediate Threat
2. Weapons of Mass Destruction (apparently we knew exactly where they were)
3. Ties to terrorism (mainly al-Qeada)

Wrong president for your top priority. In addition to the numerous countries that a) live under worse leaders than saddam and b) match Bush's reasons for invading Iraq a whole lot better than Iraq itself.

Unless you think pumping more money into out environment while cutting down our defenses

Those are not mutually exclusive. You can "pump money" into both at the same time.

[EatSleepJeep]

We're a little off topic now, dontcha think?

[neumdogg]

We're a little off topic now, dontcha think?
Hey, we agreed on something!

[fleckhead]

in this thread, it seems like it would offend more people if someone would say that the Swatztika is "gay", rather than what the Swatztika represents.

[EatSleepJeep]

Can we call a moratorium on this discussion? I think it's run it's course and actually ended better than most. I will not be buying a swastika shirt, USC has learned the proper response to people wearing swastika shirts, A lot of people in this world have been the victim of genocide, Genocide is bad. I don't like Bush, never will.

[brianlisk]

Can we call a moratorium on this discussion? I think it's run it's course and actually ended better than most. I will not be buying a swastika shirt, USC has learned the proper response to people wearing swastika shirts, A lot of people in this world have been the victim of genocide, Genocide is bad. I don't like Bush, never will.:thumbsup I support this post... sans the Bush part, but that's not important.

[rapunzelchick]

Can we call a moratorium on this discussion? I think it's run it's course and actually ended better than most. I will not be buying a swastika shirt, USC has learned the proper response to people wearing swastika shirts, A lot of people in this world have been the victim of genocide, Genocide is bad. I don't like Bush, never will.
You crack me up, Matthew, especially since I'm only on my first cup of coffee. :D

:monkey

[greychris]

And that response has nothing to do with wearing your religion on your sleeve or not.

Yes, it has everything to do with it.

[DMBSignGuy]

Yes, it has everything to do with it.

Thanks for the explanation. How does that have anything to do with it? My point is that someone like, say, Regan, can be a Christian, and not wear his faith on his sleeve... while Bush, wears it on not just his sleeve but like a huge ass robe.

You can be guided by your faith. You dont have to be shoving it down peoples throats.



And thats separate from the from the idea that religion and politics should be mutually exclusive anyways. Buts thats another topic altogether.

[crosscg]

Well when daddy raises you with these beliefs what do you expect :

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George H.W. Bush

By the way I am an atheist who volunteered to serve my country. So Daddy Bush can F off

[DMBSignGuy]

Well when daddy raises you with these beliefs what do you expect :

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George H.W. Bush

By the way I am an atheist who volunteered to serve my country. So Daddy Bush can F off

:rolleyes: figures he would say something like that. One nation under god...since 1953.

[DMBSignGuy]

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George H.W. Bush


just curious as to when and where he said this. :monkey

[crosscg]

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." - George Bush, to a AA reporter Robert I. Sherman in August 27,1987, while serving as vice-president and running for President

[greychris]

Thanks for the explanation. How does that have anything to do with it? My point is that someone like, say, Regan, can be a Christian, and not wear his faith on his sleeve... while Bush, wears it on not just his sleeve but like a huge ass robe.

You can be guided by your faith. You dont have to be shoving it down peoples throats.



And thats separate from the from the idea that religion and politics should be mutually exclusive anyways. Buts thats another topic altogether.

Ah, bullshit. It's great to imagine the possibility that religion and politics are mutually exclusive, but it's not a reality. Whether you're an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc., you're going to influenced by those beliefs everyday. When you're faced with a decision your actions are a direct result of your beliefs/ideals. Sure it's okay for an atheist to get off the hook, he doesn't believe in any God, but it's a belief none the less. The atheist is more likely to look critically on Christian ideals and vice versa. So that doesn't get you off the hook by pleading atheism. I've never seen Bush push any belief on anyone. So guided by faith? I'm afraid you're the one who needs to draw the line between "guided by faith" and "wearing his faith on his sleeve." Where is the seperation? You have not yet managed to differentiate the two at all.

[DMBSignGuy]

Ah, bullshit. It's great to imagine the possibility that religion and politics are mutually exclusive, but it's not a reality. Whether you're an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc., you're going to influenced by those beliefs everyday. When you're faced with a decision your actions are a direct result of your beliefs/ideals. Sure it's okay for an atheist to get off the hook, he doesn't believe in any God, but it's a belief none the less. The atheist is more likely to look critically on Christian ideals and vice versa. So that doesn't get you off the hook by pleading atheism. I've never seen Bush push any belief on anyone. So guided by faith? I'm afraid you're the one who needs to draw the line between "guided by faith" and "wearing his faith on his sleeve." Where is the seperation? You have not yet managed to differentiate the two at all.

I do believe Religion and politics can be mutually exclusive in a sense that beliefs/ideals are not exclusive to religion. I believe religion and belief/ideals can be a sperarate entity. One does not need religion to have beliefs/ideals. Now that ive said the same thing 3 times i'll move on. Personally i dont look down on anyones ideals, regardless of thier religion or not. Its when people see thier ideals/beliefs as the only ideals/beliefs that bothers me.

I draw the line at the complete separation of church and state. exactly as Madison intended. Instead of "guided by faith" we should be "guided by our beliefs/ideals" since religion does not have to be equated with those. As such, being guided by ones faith and not wearing it on your sleeve means not breaking down the separation of church and state. which bush is doing whole heartedly. Faith based initiatives and school vouchers (ie public money for religious private schools) are a direct violation of the separation of church and state. Thats where i draw the line. Let "faith/beliefs/ideals" guide you, dont let it guide you over the line. our president answers to the Constitution first, anything else second.

i hope that clarifies my position a little better.

[greychris]

I do believe Religion and politics can be mutually exclusive in a sense that beliefs/ideals are not exclusive to religion. I believe religion and belief/ideals can be a sperarate entity. One does not need religion to have beliefs/ideals. Now that ive said the same thing 3 times i'll move on. Personally i dont look down on anyones ideals, regardless of thier religion or not. Its when people see thier ideals/beliefs as the only ideals/beliefs that bothers me.

I draw the line at the complete separation of church and state. exactly as Madison intended. Instead of "guided by faith" we should be "guided by our beliefs/ideals" since religion does not have to be equated with those. As such, being guided by ones faith and not wearing it on your sleeve means not breaking down the separation of church and state. which bush is doing whole heartedly. Faith based initiatives and school vouchers (ie public money for religious private schools) are a direct violation of the separation of church and state. Thats where i draw the line. Let "faith/beliefs/ideals" guide you, dont let it guide you over the line. our president answers to the Constitution first, anything else second.

i hope that clarifies my position a little better.

Keep up with that idealism. It will surely get you very far. Now, let's face how things are.

[DMBSignGuy]

Keep up with that idealism. It will surely get you very far. Now, let's face how things are.

:lol Imagine if they told Madison that.

Dont worry though....i will. :D

[mojo1210]

to the thread starter or anyone for that matter.

do you get offended when you see other derivatives of nazi created or adopted iconography, branding, mark making that are still used today?

a few examples:
how about the 'kiss' logo and the two ss's similarities to the 'ss' mark of the nazi gestapo?

or the similarities between the 'independent' skating apparel logo and the nazi cross?

or the continued use of black letter typography (newspapers, punk flyers and cd covers) that was not necessarily created by the nazis, but popularized by them?

or not even in relation to the nazi swastika argument, do you get offended by the confederate flag which is still flown by some?

samples are below. should the use of these marks be discontinued, especially since profit is being made from them? yes the independent logo varies from the cross, but its similarities are there. to me its all relative, i see the nazi flag, mark, whatever and think of not only what it represents to them but how it also carried weight for so many cultures throughout history. its appearance on buddhist sculptures is my favorite example. yes it is offensive, but to some it was and still is a symbol of peace(it was this long before the nazi party was ever imagined), i am in no means trying to downplay what happened in wwII, i do not think a person on this board has not been impacted by what happened in that era. however, it is just a mark, and i find it extremely interesting how a simple mark can gain so much meaning, how it can become to represent an entire era in human history. the girl who wore the shirt has her first amendment rights, just like you have yours to call her a 'bitch.' again, its all relative. similar to how the american flag is viewed as a symbol of everything thing they view as evil and wrong.

[mojo1210]

here are the independent samples for those who are interested.

[saygoodbye12]

samples are below. should the use of these marks be discontinued, especially since profit is being made from them? yes the independent logo varies from the cross, but its similarities are there. to me its all relative, i see the nazi flag, mark, whatever and think of not only what it represents to them but how it also carried weight for so many cultures throughout history. its appearance on buddhist sculptures is my favorite example. yes it is offensive, but to some it was and still is a symbol of peace(it was this long before the nazi party was ever imagined), i am in no means trying to downplay what happened in wwII, i do not think a person on this board has not been impacted by what happened in that era. however, it is just a mark, and i find it extremely interesting how a simple mark can gain so much meaning, how it can become to represent an entire era in human history. the girl who wore the shirt has her first amendment rights, just like you have yours to call her a 'bitch.' again, its all relative. similar to how the american flag is viewed as a symbol of everything thing they view as evil and wrong.
You can explain it away all you want. If you can't understand the emotional pain that comes along with seeing that symbol for many people who experienced, or had family members who experienced what they did, then that is your choice. But don't try to belittle people's feelings.

Next you'll try to explain how people who still have numbers tattooed on their bodies shouldn't get upset about it because afterall, we use numbers everyday!!

[mojo1210]

You can explain it away all you want. If you can't understand the emotional pain that comes along with seeing that symbol for many people who experienced, or had family members who experienced what they did, then that is your choice. But don't try to belittle people's feelings.

never once did i belittle anyone’s feelings. did you read what i had to say, or since it doesn't fall in line with your 'perspective,' did you just dismiss it entirely? you cannot deny the entire history of the mark, plain and simple. the swastika was 'adopted' by the nazis. it once only stood for a symbol of luck, peace, and prosperity. it now has the weight of the nazi era attached to it which to some is all that they see and think of when the view it. yeah the primary connotation of the swastika to the majority of people is that of the nazis, wwii, the holocaust, genocide, and racism. but the other meanings and the history behind it are still there. i stated my viewpoint on the matter, if that offends you, which it obviously has, to bad. i will not apologize for something that interests me.

Next you'll try to explain how people who still have numbers tattooed on their bodies shouldn't get upset about it because afterall, we use numbers everyday!!

im not trying to explain or justify anything. again, did you read what i typed? i posed a question, you however have taken the stance that 'If you can't understand the emotional pain that comes along with seeing that symbol for many people who experienced, or had family members who experienced what they did, then that is your choice.' never once did i say that i didn't, but that really has nothing to do with what i said. i asked a question about other nazi imagery and branding, you came up with rather ignorant response, one that makes me look insensitive and as if i have taken the stance of a person who hasn't been offended by this at all, or who doesn't have a emotional effect when they see this part of the nazi system. the nazis did not adopt the symbol of the gestapo, they created it. a symbol that was worn by those who carried out much of what you, i, and everyone else here has been effected by, both historically and personally. it offends me, perhaps even more, because it has been adopted by a rock band (the cross by an alternative clothing line) and many of the same people who condemn the swastika have nothing to say about this matter, yourself included (well you do have something to say which is entirely off base), or don't even realize that its origins date back to the nazi era. no i am not going to 'try to explain how people who still have numbers tattooed on their bodies shouldn't get upset about it because after all, we use numbers everyday!!' because that has nothing to do with my point, and that is one of the most ridiculous things i have seen come from you.

how about the japan national flag, that is still in used today? i'm sure that is as sensitive an issue for some, do you feel the same about that as the nazi flag or nazi swastika? how about the hammer and sikle of the soviet union (which was still used until the breakup of the ussr) flow under stalin's atrocities? again, it is all relative. i've said my piece.

[marco j]

here are the independent samples for those who are interested.


that is only a german cross. nothing more.

[saygoodbye12]

i stated my viewpoint on the matter, if that offends you, which it obviously has, to bad. i will not apologize for something that interests me.
I don't get offended very easily and certainly not by something on an internet message board, so I'm not looking for an apology. It's all good.

[mojo1210]

that is only a german cross. nothing more.

by that logic the swastika is only a swastika, nothing more.

the german cross was used before during and after the nazis. it was an important part of the nazi identity. why is the swastika offensive, the cross not?

[marco j]

by that logic the swastika is only a swastika, nothing more.


well people can take what they want from their point of view on anything.
all i was pointing out was the symbol is an iron cross of germany nothing more. sometimes in history people have used a symbol for whatever reason and then afterwards people react to the same symbol because of past experiences.

example: the peace symbol. most people think anyone who wears a peace symbol is a pot smoking liberal tree hugger. this is sometimes true and sometimes Not true. either way it is only a reaction to a symbol.