Would this album be more accepted...

[PilotC150]

...if we hadn't heard Crazy-Easy, Joy Ride, Hello Again and Sugar Will last summer?

[BDJCL3]

Perhaps. Cause it would have been a much longer time since we had heard brand new dave material. But people still would have complained about those original clips and all.

[cptnhansel]

Yes.

[MistreatedLewis]

Wouldn't make a difference to me. Those were good songs but the only ones that are classic to me made it on the album and on the b-sides.

[nonewdirections]

doesn't make a difference to me. i didn't like those that much. if the lillywhite sessions had never come out, that might have made a difference in the reception of it.

[PrettyPenelope]

I think so. We heard those songs enought last summer to get used to them, see them develop and really like them. And so we were expecting to hear more good stuff, and some people think they haven't. I think we need to hear all these new songs live a few times and feelings will change...

[Erich]

yes. Everyday would have been more accepted had we not heard the Lillywhites. How much more is up for debate, but when you hear what the band is truly capable of by themselves with no help (LWS, summer '04 songs), hearing co-written pop produced material is a little dissapointing to some.

[BryH17]

yes. Everyday would have been more accepted had we not heard the Lillywhites. How much more is up for debate, but when you hear what the band is truly capable of by themselves with no help (LWS, summer '04 songs), hearing co-written pop produced material is a little dissapointing to some.

LWS had help... umm Steve Lillywhite? hence, the Lillywhite Sessions :twak

... frog thing :bounce

[sdaltons]

LWS had help... umm Steve Lillywhite? hence, the Lillywhite Sessions :twak

... frog thing :bounce

I think he meant the actual writing of the songs.

[Erich]

LWS had help... umm Steve Lillywhite? hence, the Lillywhite Sessions :twak

... frog thing :bounce

oh, right, steve lillywhite had writing credits on all of the songs on the albums he produced, I forgot.

oh, wait a second, he didnt :rolleyes

[MistreatedLewis]

oh, right, steve lillywhite had writing credits on all of the songs on the albums he produced, I forgot.

oh, wait a second, he didnt :rolleyes


Erich, go respond to my poll, I think you would be pretty insightful there...

[BryH17]

oh, right, steve lillywhite had writing credits on all of the songs on the albums he produced, I forgot.

oh, wait a second, he didnt :rolleyes

producers may not help writting it, but still have input in what is made, and how it sounds... thats what i meant :bounce

[Erich]

producers may not help writting it, but still have input in what is made, and how it sounds... thats what i meant :bounce

Ballard and Batson co-wrote the songs on Eday and SU, where previous to those albums we heard songs that they wrote BY THEMSELVES. IMHO, those songs were 100x better in both cases. as per the threat topic, and what I was talking about (which you missed, twice), I honestly think peoples reaction to both stand up and everyday would have been generaly better had we not heard what the band is capable of writing by themselves.

[MistreatedLewis]

Ballard and Batson co-wrote the songs on Eday and SU, where previous to those albums we heard songs that they wrote BY THEMSELVES. IMHO, those songs were 100x better in both cases. as per the threat topic, and what I was talking about (which you missed, twice), I honestly think peoples reaction to both stand up and everyday would have been generaly better had we not heard what the band is capable of writing by themselves.

So Erich, let me pose this question... Why has Dave lost confidence in his ability to write songs by himself? Why does he keep turning to producers who want to help him write?

[ant_marching41]

maybe. but the best summer song made it on the album popularity wise, and the band made so much music that the band probably felt to keep the other songs on the unreleased catagory of their songs. they'll still play them once and a while. for example, help myself made it in a good 15 shows this summer, including the camden show i went to. it was a pleasent surprise, so maybe it'll get that same responce from the crowds.

[BryH17]

^ (ERICH) I did understand what u were talking about, and yes i agree that they are far better off wrtting thier own songs... what i was pointing out (in less word than this) was that a producer such as lillywhite has input in the songs... they need a producer such as that, who doesnt have as much input in the songs like batson and ballard did (in their case they had too much input, i.e. helpign them write the songs)

perhaps the songs they left off the cd were ones they wrote on their own b4 bastson, and they will release them on thier own or another producer (ex: crazy-easy)

[RolandsThinny]

I don't think Dave has lost confidence writing songs by himself however I do think that someone somewhere lost confidence in his ability to write a pop/rock single the likes of which hasn't been seen long ago. On SD Dave really wasn't expected to produce a big hit so they (the powers that be) let him do/write whatever. But when its back to the full band, thats where the money is so they throw him around to "radio-friendly" producers. Now I am sure he does have a huge creative spurt with these guys but it doesn't match what he can do sitting in a room by himself dreaming about death. IMHO. Now don't get me wrong I actually do kinda like Stand Up, its definately growing on me. I do feel its much better than Everyday. Sorry, I know you posed this question to Erich but I just jumped on it... Lo siento.....

[MistreatedLewis]

I don't think Dave has lost confidence writing songs by himself however I do think that someone somewhere lost confidence in his ability to write a pop/rock single the likes of which hasn't been seen long ago. On SD Dave really wasn't expected to produce a big hit so they (the powers that be) let him do/write whatever. But when its back to the full band, thats where the money is so they throw him around to "radio-friendly" producers. Now I am sure he does have a huge creative spurt with these guys but it doesn't match what he can do sitting in a room by himself dreaming about death. IMHO. Now don't get me wrong I actually do kinda like Stand Up, its definately growing on me. I do feel its much better than Everyday. Sorry, I know you posed this question to Erich but I just jumped on it... Lo siento.....

No apologies necessary. One thing I will say, is that if the best thing Dave can come up with at this point while by himself thinking about death is Digging A Ditch or Big Eyed Fish, I'd rather him work with Batson...

[Reanimated]

Yes, and if they deleted Old Dirt Hill from existence. Good god that song is horrid.

[RolandsThinny]

Well but if you look at LWS version of Captain I think that is one of the greatest songs he's written in the last 6 years. The original D&T version (Crazy) and the BS version just simply don't compare. Not in my book. However I do love Digging a Ditch. Now another song that is like thinking about the reverse of death is YNK and I wonder what a Lillywhites produced version of that would sound like. And I don't mean that he was thinking about life I mean more so he was thinking almost happily about death and then maybe a sort of rebirth. I really don't like the studio version at all.

[MistreatedLewis]

Well but if you look at LWS version of Captain I think that is one of the greatest songs he's written in the last 6 years. The original D&T version (Crazy) and the BS version just simply don't compare. Not in my book. However I do love Digging a Ditch. Now another song that is like thinking about the reverse of death is YNK and I wonder what a Lillywhites produced version of that would sound like. And I don't mean that he was thinking about life I mean more so he was thinking almost happily about death and then maybe a sort of rebirth. I really don't like the studio version at all.


I agree that Captain is amazing. DAD is fine but it's pretty boring.

[RolandsThinny]

Boring it is, true, but lyrically better than 3/4ths of Everyday.

[MistreatedLewis]

Boring it is, true, but lyrically better than 3/4ths of Everyday.

Is it? And even if it is, are lyrics more important than music on a record?

[RolandsThinny]

Hmmm... Generally how I first "read" an album is I put it on I just hear it. Not listen for all of its little quirks, but just hear it. If something grabs me I will take a much closer look. Everyday grabbed me musically but not lyrically on most songs. I did enjoy some for thier poppy-ness but I felt defeated after hearing Everyday the song and how I knew we had nearly lost #36 forever. I felt defeated after hearing the Little Thing bridge in DOOF figuring we had lost Little Thing forever. LWS may not had grabbed me musically off of the first listen but once I finally sat and listened to all of the songs I found that what they lacked in musical force they more than made up in lyrical depth. Now as to your question: are lyrics more important than music on a record, my answer is, it depends. Examples> KKJ: Great without lyrics, ok with them. STDH: Great musically lyrics meh. Two Step: Great song made better by great lyrics. Same with the Stone.

[MistreatedLewis]

Hmmm... Generally how I first "read" an album is I put it on I just hear it. Not listen for all of its little quirks, but just hear it. If something grabs me I will take a much closer look. Everyday grabbed me musically but not lyrically on most songs. I did enjoy some for thier poppy-ness but I felt defeated after hearing Everyday the song and how I knew we had nearly lost #36 forever. I felt defeated after hearing the Little Thing bridge in DOOF figuring we had lost Little Thing forever. LWS may not had grabbed me musically off of the first listen but once I finally sat and listened to all of the songs I found that what they lacked in musical force they more than made up in lyrical depth. Now as to your question: are lyrics more important than music on a record, my answer is, it depends. Examples> KKJ: Great without lyrics, ok with them. STDH: Great musically lyrics meh. Two Step: Great song made better by great lyrics. Same with the Stone.

So then if a song has great music but bad lyrics... can you still enjoy it?

[RolandsThinny]

Oh yeah. I can be really biased if I want to be but ultimately I can enjoy a song despite its faults. I love STDH. I just think lyrically its a poor mans Crash into me. Its another stalker song without making it sound pretty like Crash Into Me or Every Breath You Take for that matter. I can love a song with great lyrics but crappy music. I mean it makes you wonder what David Gray thought when he first hear Soft Cells Say Hello Wave Goodbye. Its like crappy new wave electronica. But he saw that the lyrics were phenomenal and then changed the song into something quite amazing.

[MistreatedLewis]

Oh yeah. I can be really biased if I want to be but ultimately I can enjoy a song despite its faults. I love STDH. I just think lyrically its a poor mans Crash into me. Its another stalker song without making it sound pretty like Crash Into Me or Every Breath You Take for that matter. I can love a song with great lyrics but crappy music. I mean it makes you wonder what David Gray thought when he first hear Soft Cells Say Hello Wave Goodbye. Its like crappy new wave electronica. But he saw that the lyrics were phenomenal and then changed the song into something quite amazing.

Cool. First of all I am a big STDH fan... it definitely is a poor man's Crash but it's actally one of the more interesting live songs to come from that album.

In general, I am way biased towards music... in fact, I love BTCS but I really don't think the lyrics are very good, and are absolutely inferior to UTTAD and Crash. But I think lyrics matter to me less because generally lyrics to me, unless written by a true master like Bob Dylan, come nowhere near the literary beauty of real poetry. So I am more interested in music for the musical ideas than the literary ones. But that's definitely just me, and why I can enjoy this album a lot more than people who were expecting fantastic lyrics.

[RolandsThinny]

Well from that stand point then you feel that this is a musical achievement for the band then? Musically I think UTTAD, Crash and BTCS blow Stand Up out of the water. Hell I am pretty sure I enjoy Some Devil over this album. Now don't get me wrong I do like this album but I would rank it 6th above Everyday and BS. Like I said I can pull myself away for a moment and think about strictly from a musical side of things but again this album just doesn't seem up to par with what the summer songs seemed to show. A truncated version of Hello Again? Lame in my book. Let Carter go off for petes sake. Sugar Will could have been a great last song that went on for 10 minutes. Why last? So the SW haters could either start the album over or change disks without having to skip anything. I think above all else SU is a musical let down for me personally because I saw these songs live and saw the possibility of what could be done in the studio. Oh well.

[nonewdirections]

Cool. First of all I am a big STDH fan... it definitely is a poor man's Crash but it's actally one of the more interesting live songs to come from that album.

more like the deaf man's crash. ;) :lol

[MistreatedLewis]

Well from that stand point then you feel that this is a musical achievement for the band then? Musically I think UTTAD, Crash and BTCS blow Stand Up out of the water. Hell I am pretty sure I enjoy Some Devil over this album. Now don't get me wrong I do like this album but I would rank it 6th above Everyday and BS. Like I said I can pull myself away for a moment and think about strictly from a musical side of things but again this album just doesn't seem up to par with what the summer songs seemed to show. A truncated version of Hello Again? Lame in my book. Let Carter go off for petes sake. Sugar Will could have been a great last song that went on for 10 minutes. Why last? So the SW haters could either start the album over or change disks without having to skip anything. I think above all else SU is a musical let down for me personally because I saw these songs live and saw the possibility of what could be done in the studio. Oh well.

No I agree with you that it is not musically up to par with those albums, not even close. I do enjoy it though, because I think the music, independent of the band who is making it or what they have done previously or what I know they are capable of doing, is irrelevent to my ability to enjoy this particular music. I am nearly positive that I am never going to enjoy this album more than Crash or BTCS, but I am also almost sure that I will always enjoy this album more than Busted Stuff just because I find the music so much more interesting.

[MistreatedLewis]

:haha
That was pretty funny.

more like the deaf man's crash. ;) :lol

[nonewdirections]

:haha
That was pretty funny.

:) you made it possible. in all seriousness, i dislike the song, but i enjoyed the first half dozen listens or so. maybe you just haven't heard it for the 8th time yet ...

[RolandsThinny]

Musically this album is more diverse than what they may have done in the past. That could have been them or that could have been Batson. More diverse than LWS but again I feel LWS trumps this album as well. OPinions opinions. I, however, wish it were the old days between Crash and BTCS and everthing was rosy for the most part. Everyday brought a lot of cynicism to the fans. Its like when you get old enough to mistrust the government. Everything kind of falls around you. I remember everyone not knowing what to expect with BTCS cuz it was all "new" although it really wasnt all knew. Lyrically yes, musically not to much. Halloween, Pig, PNP and Rapunzel, DDTW, all had been played in one form or another in the past. Everyone was optimistic. Oh well.

[MistreatedLewis]

:) you made it possible. in all seriousness, i dislike the song, but i enjoyed the first half dozen listens or so. maybe you just haven't heard it for the 8th time yet ...


haha! I don't listen to it very often, and I have only heard it live twice (and the second time it had particularly good set placement).

Maybe it's because I associate it with one time I got laid...

[MistreatedLewis]

Musically this album is more diverse than what they may have done in the past. That could have been them or that could have been Batson. More diverse than LWS but again I feel LWS trumps this album as well. OPinions opinions. I, however, wish it were the old days between Crash and BTCS and everthing was rosy for the most part. Everyday brought a lot of cynicism to the fans. Its like when you get old enough to mistrust the government. Everything kind of falls around you. I remember everyone not knowing what to expect with BTCS cuz it was all "new" although it really wasnt all knew. Lyrically yes, musically not to much. Halloween, Pig, PNP and Rapunzel, DDTW, all had been played in one form or another in the past. Everyone was optimistic. Oh well.

Actually there's always been a ton of negativity. When I first started paying attention to message boards after Crash came all I remember hearing was "Too Much sucks it isn't DMB" and "Lillywhite sucks he butchered Two Step and Cry Freedom".

[RolandsThinny]

Yeah. Its interesting. I remember reading a webpage about Two Step. Now mind you the album version of Two Step is the reason I fell in love with this band. Whoever made the webpage trashed the studio version of Two Step. I hadn't heard the older versions at that point and almost felt hurt that he has said those things. I know there has been negativity however the level of it is so much greater now. Its thicker, more palpable. Back then we had UTTAD and Crash and we really hadn't had a true miss yet so to speak. Sure there were the dissenters about Crash but ultimately people liked it. Same with BTCS but we've never gotten over Everyday and BS for the most part.

[nonewdirections]

haha! I don't listen to it very often, and I have only heard it live twice (and the second time it had particularly good set placement).

Maybe it's because I associate it with one time I got laid...

I was just thinking how weird it would be if one associated a song like kid a or treefingers with being laid.

[MistreatedLewis]

I was just thinking how weird it would be if one associated a song like kid a or treefingers with being laid.


Actually I have had sex to that album before. After In Limbo my girlfriend got off me and shut it off because she couldn't take it anymore.

[dmb2much40]

i don't think the album would be more accepted because stand up doesn't sound like dmb. the songs we heard last summer sounded like dmb.

i think the album is more accepted because it came out after everyday.

[nonewdirections]

Actually I have had sex to that album before. After In Limbo my girlfriend got off me and shut it off because she couldn't take it anymore.

:lol i made out with someone while amnesiac was on in the background. didn't really realize how odd it was until it had gone all the way through the album once. she was already a bigger radiohead fan than me though.

[RolandsThinny]

Well you could put out (a little late mind you) a 10th anniversary edition of UTTAD with bonus tracks and most people will love it because its post-everyday, nevermind getting jipped on not getting a new album but getting one they already have with maybe 3 or 4 extra tracks. Thats just the simple polarity of the fans post-everyday.

[pilates inciden]

hearing co-written pop produced material is a little dissapointing to some.

yes....although ive only listened once. its incredibly disappointing and i fear that dmb has lost its touch. everyday plus stand up...if it wasnt for the pre 2000 days i dont think i would even be a dave fan. but thats just me...