Evolution vs. Creation

[taphntm]

This is something I promised a few people I'd do. This is all going to be discussion rather than me attacking your beliefs. I'm only here to hear you and vice versa. Hopefully I'm not the only one who believes in Creation or I am in for a ride :lol

I'll start us off with this

The overall non-biblical/philosophical reason I believe in Creation of the universe by a god, whether the God I believe in or another is because of the chance that this earth fell into place. There isn't a single part of this universe, whether it be the laws, the molecules or the creatures that exist in a fragile nature. It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

[Nautiest_monkey]

I'm from Kansas, I don't think that I should be allowed to talk about this issue for fear of what my State government might do to me if they found out.

[Tomriddle]

:eek :eek :eek Here it comes! Run for cover!

[Tomriddle]

It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

Can you please expand this statement?

Oh, and where is Doc Strangelove?

[taphntm]

Also this is from the other thread

How do you know that?
It's what the bible says :shrug :lol

Of course, since God is perfect he could make laws that govern his universe and never need to change them- they're perfect too. But how does that relate to the age of the Earth? Why would he make all science true and logical and then fake one thing?
But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

ok, that's what I had before I decided to see if I should do this so now I'm going to try and finish getting this dinner ready, I hope I didn't just open a can of worms, for some reason it feels that way

[ExistenceNow]

This is something I promised a few people I'd do. This is all going to be discussion rather than me attacking your beliefs. I'm only here to hear you and vice versa. Hopefully I'm not the only one who believes in Creation or I am in for a ride :lol

I'll start us off with this

The overall non-biblical/philosophical reason I believe in Creation of the universe by a god, whether the God I believe in or another is because of the chance that this earth fell into place. There isn't a single part of this universe, whether it be the laws, the molecules or the creatures that exist in a fragile nature. It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

if you're interested in non-biblical/philosophical theories of creation... you should check out Intelligent Design Theory

here's a link to a site with links to information on ID... i think the theory is crap but it does provide actual arguments, and it's more interesting to me than religious "arguments".

http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/links.htm

[taphntm]

Can you please expand this statement?

Oh, and where is Doc Strangelove?
yes and...

no! Where's HolyCow? :lol

[Tomriddle]

Also this is from the other thread


It's what the bible says :shrug :lol


I wouldn't trust a man's word on his own infallibility.

But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

Can't you expand that arguement and say we can never know anything for certain, and so it doesn't pay to believe in anything, (since everything is as unlikely as anything else if you say that reality is fake)

[ryguy178]

I posted something abuot the Kansas Education thing not too long back and that got a pretty good debate going...

[taphntm]

Can you please expand this statement?
It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

[ExistenceNow]

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.

[hombreComeMorbo]

science is fact.
god is fiction.

[TheBigCaptain]

Ive always believed the earth's creation was set into motion by a god but he did not simply make the earth and everything on it in a few days day. So in a sense its a combination of evolution/creation

[Audrey]

Why can't people see the beauty of randomness and happenstance?

[taphntm]

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.
A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

[davehead86]

But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

ok, that's what I had before I decided to see if I should do this so now I'm going to try and finish getting this dinner ready, I hope I didn't just open a can of worms, for some reason it feels that way


Did you just say that gravity and the phyisical properties of the universe are wrong, wow. The argument cant be made with that type of reeasoning. Its there it exists you cant disprove it. The fact is that God made it, and we arent supposed to understand it.
Have you ever just thought about the Big Bang, the idea in itself is absolutly ridiculous and its impossible to try and wrap your head around something so massive. No one knows how the universe was created b/c God made it mysteriously. I cross both boarders on this one (obviously). God made the universe and just lets it run its self, i think the earth is older than 10 thousand year, and that God created the earth and everything on it but that it took millions of years for things to evovle (not humans from monkeys, the evolution of species and extinction of others).

But i would like to hear the POV of a "true" creationist, where the hell do the dinosaurs fit in, they werent around in any recorded human history, and im sure as hell positive that an entire species was wipped out without the human race being wipped out with it.




--Good topic, hope it dosent get hijacked--

[Tomriddle]

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

True, but consider the size of the Universe.

Also, does the term "Self-Organizing systems" mean anything to you?

[Tomriddle]

A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

Depends on your concept of time.

[mikedevoss6]

It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

Where did you get this info? It seems like you're just using God as an explanation for the improbable. Maybe this is proving the oither side of your argument. Maybe God made the world by forcing this improbable mass of particles to come together. It is a lot better of an explanation than that of Adam and Eve. I don't see how anyone can believe that. Here's basically what would have to happen. God creates Adam and Eve and all other animals. He then kills off all of these animals and humans and trees and natural life and turns the world into what we know it was like in the beginning. Adam and Eve is impossible.

[taphntm]

Can't you expand that arguement and say we can never know anything for certain, and so it doesn't pay to believe in anything, (since everything is as unlikely as anything else if you say that reality is fake)
Our souls are real to me, but this earth is a medium for it. That's just a little thought I've had.

For all the people that are going to read this anything I say is my opinion which may change... Just thought I'd clear that up instead of waiting like last time.

[ExistenceNow]

A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

well.. i'm more likely to believe that the laws of physics always existed than i am to believe something infinitely more complicated has always been... if the laws of physics require creation then so does god...

[Audrey]

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

Very true...but it did happen!

Aren't we lucky to be here? :)

[Tomriddle]

Our souls are real to me, but this earth is a medium for it. That's just a little thought I've had.

For all the people that are going to read this anything I say is my opinion which may change... Just thought I'd clear that up instead of waiting like last time.

Interesting thought.

Now, my opinion: evolution is true, but natural selection by mutation is wrong. Anyone get what I'm getting at?

[ExistenceNow]

oh and the only reason we're here is because of Jupiter... not god.

[davehead86]

Adam and Eve is impossible.

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

[ExistenceNow]

Interesting thought.

Now, my opinion: evolution is true, but natural selection by mutation is wrong. Anyone get what I'm getting at?

if natural selection by mutation is wrong, how do you explain how new alleles come about in a controlled population?

[TheBigCaptain]

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.


where did these particles come from though if there is no god to create them?
they couldnt have just appeared for no reason

[davehead86]

oh and the only reason we're here is because of Jupiter... not god.


true that

[ExistenceNow]

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

for the 1,000,000,000 time NO ONE IN HISTORY HAS EVER SAID WE CAME FROM MONKEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tomriddle]

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

Again, not according to my belief (that of self-organization). Then, all the monkeys would evolve at once and there is no Adam and Eve.

[Tomriddle]

where did these particles come from though if there is no god to create them?
they couldnt have just appeared for no reason

Oh, there is a God, but that doesn't mean that the Bible is right.

[ExistenceNow]

where did these particles come from though if there is no god to create them?
they couldnt have just appeared for no reason

that same line of argument can be used against god... if small particles require a creation story, then so does something more complex.... if god could have always been, then certainly smaller less complex particles could have always been... and if you say that god is all powerful and that's how he has always been, then you are talking in circles...

[taphntm]

well.. i'm more likely to believe that the laws of physics always existed than i am to believe something infinitely more complicated has always been... if the laws of physics require creation then so does god...
I would consider molecules to be infinitely complicated rather than diety (in your case Jupiter.) It's harder to understand why molecules would just exist in the balance of nature. If the equations that hold the atoms together were altered slightly all sorts of things could happen according to science.

[davehead86]

is anyone elses head spinning,

maybe its from teh shots of vodka,

well thank God for that then.



--Sorry bout the monkey thing, hot button issue that is. Just using it as an example, we had to come from somewhere if you use the evolution meathodoligy

[Tomriddle]

I would consider molecules to be infinitely complicated rather than diety (in your case Jupiter.) It's harder to understand why molecules would just exist in the balance of nature. If the equations that hold the atoms together were altered slightly all sorts of things could happen according to science.

Why would God try to trick us?

[ExistenceNow]

I would consider molecules to be infinitely complicated rather than diety (in your case Jupiter.) It's harder to understand why molecules would just exist in the balance of nature. If the equations that hold the atoms together were altered slightly all sorts of things could happen according to science.

i was talking about Jupiter the planet... not the god... if you can imagine an all powerful being existing in the balance of nature then why can't imagine molecules existing in nature....

that's like saying I can imagine how many particles of sand it would take to fill up the grand canyon but it's harder to imagine how many particles of sand it would take to fill up a shot glass.

yes... if you alter physics, things will change... and if you alter god, he will change... if you alter something, that something changes... that's just redundant... if you paint something red, that something will be red.

[TheBigCaptain]

Oh, there is a God, but that doesn't mean that the Bible is right.

This I agree with. I believe wholeheartedly in a god but i think people for the most part have no idea what is true when it comes to religion. If there wasnt the fear of hell would as many people go to church? It seems like every religious group is the only one thats right but that means the majority of people must be wrong. Ive always loved the south park where everyone goes to hell and they are like so what was the right religion? ohh Mormonism

[taphntm]

Interesting thought.

Now, my opinion: evolution is true, but natural selection by mutation is wrong. Anyone get what I'm getting at?
I need an explanation

[Tomriddle]

Here's my problem with evolution: They would have you believe that its random. An animal randomely mutates, the mutation is positive, he survives and reproduces. Consider zebras, who evolved stripes that confuse predetors when they look at a large herd of zebras. How did this evolve? ALL the zebras in the herd would need to evolve it at once, or it just doesn't work and the mutation theory falls apart.

Not to mention that the chances a random mutation accompished ANYTHING is very very small. There is a higher likelyhood that a tornado can hit a junkyard and assemble a 747 then there is that random changes in DNA can give a bat echolocation.

[ExistenceNow]

I need an explanation

don't bother... natural selection via mutation happens... new alleles come about in an isolated population... sometimes those alleles become favored by that population and said population evolves into possessing the manifestations of those alleles.

[Tomriddle]

I need an explanation

Sure. See what I posted above about zebras.

[ExistenceNow]

Here's my problem with evolution: They would have you believe that its random. An animal randomely mutates, the mutation is positive, he survives and reproduces. Consider zebras, who evolved stripes that confuse predetors when they look at a large herd of zebras. How did this evolve? ALL the zebras in the herd would need to evolve it at once, or it just doesn't work and the mutation theory falls apart.

Not to mention that the chances a random mutation accompished ANYTHING is very very small. There is a higher likelyhood that a tornado can hit a junkyard and assemble a 747 then there is that random changes in DNA can give a bat echolocation.

most evolution does is not the result of mutation... most of it is sexual selection... Evolution is not random and i don't think any evolutionary biologist would have you believe that...

[Tomriddle]

don't bother... natural selection via mutation happens... new alleles come about in an isolated population... sometimes those alleles become favored by that population and said population evolves into possessing the manifestations of those alleles.

The chances are so small they can be ignored. I mean, sure, it happens in bacteria. Bacteria are very simple. But in a complex system? No.

[Tomriddle]

most of it is sexual selection.

Is everything thats sexually attractive a benefit?

How about trees that evolve poison to fight predetors? Is this sexual selection?

[ExistenceNow]

Sure. See what I posted above about zebras.

the zebras didn't get together one day and deside to have stripes... how it probly went down is that lions killed any zebra that looked most different from the others... thus the breeding pool was smaller and the next generation looked much more congruent than the one before it... over a few hundred generations (each generations odd balls being picked off by lions) you get what we see now.

[taphntm]

what I mean with the equation thing is if the properties of this universe were not exactly what they are now we would not have gravity, or we would not have heat, etc. There are particles moving in this universe that were catalyzed by some heat or gravity or something. Why are we so lucky to have existed on a planet that held life for millions of years? Which is more impossible? something created a creature or a creature came from chance? The molecules in this universe are in some ways equally as complicated as the organisms they combine to create... maybe if what I understand about the science is right.

[Tomriddle]

the zebras didn't get together one day and deside to have stripes... how it probly went down is that lions killed any zebra that looked most different from the others... thus the breeding pool was smaller and the next generation looked much more congruent than the one before it... over a few hundred generations (each generations odd balls being picked off by lions) you get what we see now.

Unlikey. (First of all, that would take a long time. Fossil evidence shows evolution to be a quick process.)

Then how about trees that release a chemical that alerts other trees in the area that predetor is present so they can produce poison? Could that have gradually evolved, as you say?

[ExistenceNow]

Is everything thats sexually attractive a benefit?

How about trees that evolve poison to fight predetors? Is this sexual selection?

no... sexual selection can only happen in animals... like the female baboon pickinig the male with the reddest ass... eventually they had a bunch of red assed babies and that trend continued... red assness was probly considered a sign of verility... that's why peacocks have the tails they do.

[Tomriddle]

what I mean with the equation thing is if the properties of this universe were not exactly what they are now we would not have gravity, or we would not have heat, etc. There are particles moving in this universe that were catalyzed by some heat or gravity or something. Why are we so lucky to have existed on a planet that held life for millions of years? Which is more impossible? something created a creature or a creature came from chance? The molecules in this universe are in some ways equally as complicated as the organisms they combine to create... maybe if what I understand about the science is right.

I see what you mean. And yes, I think its good reason to belive in God, but not in the Bible.

[taphntm]

echolocation.
I followed you all the way until this



















:lol

... I agree that if there's another way the world exists it's unlikely it was by random mutation

[Tomriddle]

no... sexual selection can only happen in animals... like the female baboon pickinig the male with the reddest ass... eventually they had a bunch of red assed babies and that trend continued... red assness was probly considered a sign of verility... that's why peacocks have the tails they do.

Then how do plants evolve?

[ExistenceNow]

Unlikey. (First of all, that would take a long time. Fossil evidence shows evolution to be a quick process.)

Then how about trees that release a chemical that alerts other trees in the area that predetor is present so they can produce poison? Could that have gradually evolved, as you say?

are you fucking kidding me... Fossil evidence does not show that evolution is a quick process... by definition, it can't be a quick process because it takes several generations to change a population.... of course complex things such as the trees you speak of evolved gradually...

[Tomriddle]

I followed you all the way until this



Oh, shit, my bad. My spelling sucks, sorry.:o

[Tomriddle]

are you fucking kidding me... Fossil evidence does not show that evolution is a quick process... by definition, it can't be a quick process because it takes several generations to change a population.... of course complex things such as the trees you speak of evolved gradually...

Quick in geological terms.

Explain the tree-chemical thing.

[ExistenceNow]

Then how do plants evolve?

through natural selection... animals ate all the plants that were least acidic to the smell... therefore, more acidic plants were left and those plants gave rise to even more acidic plants... again the animals ate the least acidic of that bunch and thus the next generation would be even more acidic... and so on and so forth untill you get a species of plants that is completely poisonous.

[taphntm]

I see what you mean. And yes, I think its good reason to belive in God, but not in the Bible.
thanks, I'm not trying to prove the bible now because I think it would be more of a hinderance than anything else in our discussion.

[taphntm]

Oh, shit, my bad. My spelling sucks, sorry.:o
no, I mean you might have spelled it right, but I wasn't expecting to read words that involve more than 3 syllables.

[ExistenceNow]

look... here's a simple example... take a series of numbers:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 (have the numbers represent height of an animal)

i as the predator take out the smallest animals: numbers 1-4.

the rest of the living number breed with each other and form this:

4&5 --> 5,4,5,4 6&7 --> 6,7,6,7 etc... all the way to 16...

thus the second generation looks like this:

4,4,5,5,6,6,7,7,8,8,9,9 etc...

again... as the predator, i take out the smallest numbers 4-8

the third generation looks like this:

9,9,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,10,10,10,10

see a pattern emerging... the average height of the group is getting higher.. the group is evolving.

[taphntm]

don't bother... natural selection via mutation happens... new alleles come about in an isolated population... sometimes those alleles become favored by that population and said population evolves into possessing the manifestations of those alleles.
I personally think if evolution is true then there must have been some sort of "mother nature" that controlled mutations because of the perfection of every creature. How many animals do we know of that have one small fallacy? I've always wondered if evolution is true then why do we have eyebrows? Eyebrows are to block off light, but I don't think they're that important to exist. It's not likely that the billions of people without eyebrows existed and eventually the one person with eyebrows, mind you two symmetric eyebrows got all the ladies while all the people with no eyebrows got none. :p

edit: and I believe God is that "mother nature" minus the evolution

[ExistenceNow]

I personally think if evolution is true then there must have been some sort of "mother nature" that controlled mutations because of the perfection of every creature. How many animals do we know of that have one small fallacy? I've always wondered if evolution is true then why do we have eyebrows? Eyebrows are to block off light, but I don't think they're that important to exist. It's more likely that the billions of people without eyebrows existed and eventually the one person with eyebrows, mind you two symmetric eyebrows got all the ladies while all the people with no eyebrows got none. :p

edit: and I believe God is that "mother nature" minus the evolution


mutation is a very small part of evolution (i was just responding to someone else by saying that it does occur)... eyebrows aren't necessary now but like you said, no one is going to fuck someone with no eyebrows, thus they stay... look at wisdom teeth... they are no longer useful and now generations are starting to be born without them...

[ExistenceNow]

I personally think if evolution is true then there must have been some sort of "mother nature" that controlled mutations because of the perfection of every creature. How many animals do we know of that have one small fallacy? I've always wondered if evolution is true then why do we have eyebrows? Eyebrows are to block off light, but I don't think they're that important to exist. It's more likely that the billions of people without eyebrows existed and eventually the one person with eyebrows, mind you two symmetric eyebrows got all the ladies while all the people with no eyebrows got none. :p

edit: and I believe God is that "mother nature" minus the evolution

again... if something as simple as evolution requires a guiding process then why doesn't the infinitely complex process that is god and his actions itself require a guiding process.

[taphntm]

mutation is a very small part of evolution (i was just responding to someone else by saying that it does occur)... eyebrows aren't necessary now but like you said, no one is going to fuck someone with no eyebrows, thus they stay... look at wisdom teeth... they are no longer useful and now generations are starting to be born without them...
I made an error and just edited my post I meant to say it's not likely that one person mutated two symmetric eyebrows got all the ladies and the others didn't

[ExistenceNow]

Evolution is common sense... if i go around the planet and whack every fuck who is under 6 feet tall including children, the next generation isn't going to have mother fuckers walking around who are 5'2".

[taphntm]

again... if something as simple as evolution requires a guiding process then why doesn't the infinitely complex process that is god and his actions itself require a guiding process.
So I'm guessing that you don't believe evolution is likely, but rather that diety is more unlikely

[ExistenceNow]

I made an error and just edited my post I meant to say it's not likely that one person mutated two symmetric eyebrows got all the ladies and the others didn't

i don't think so either... but think about back in the day... you said eyebrows filter light... a person who didn't have eyebrows and couldn't filter light probly couldnt hunt as well in africa as the bro with the bushy eyebrows and thus probly died... since he died, he couldn't give birth to another eyebrowless baby...

[ExistenceNow]

So I'm guessing that you don't believe evolution is likely, but rather that diety is more unlikely

evolution is FACT... i can show it to you with 12 pea plants... see my above post about short people... it's common sense... unless you think genetics is crap too.

[taphntm]

Evolution is common sense... if i go around the planet and whack every fuck who is under 6 feet tall including children, the next generation isn't going to have mother fuckers walking around who are 5'2".
but evolution doesn't whack people, people had to die out gradually because the other race was stronger than another. It seems more likely that a quadrillion bacteria exist rather than 6 billion humans that happened to mutate from the bacteria.

[ExistenceNow]

but evolution doesn't whack people, people had to die out gradually because the other race was stronger than another. It seems more likely that a quadrillion bacteria exist rather than 6 billion humans that happened to mutate from the bacteria.

jesus christ... do you think evolution is an entity... it's a description... predators whack prey... prey that doesn't survive, doesn't pass on its genes.

[taphntm]

i don't think so either... but think about back in the day... you said eyebrows filter light... a person who didn't have eyebrows and couldn't filter light probly couldnt hunt as well in africa as the bro with the bushy eyebrows and thus probly died... since he died, he couldn't give birth to another eyebrowless baby...
so that one person with eyebrows outlives the billions without eyebrows?

[ExistenceNow]

so that one person with eyebrows outlives the billions without eyebrows?

there wouldn't be just one person without eyebrows... there would be a lot... and there would be degrees of eyebrows... those who have none, die out fast... and thus females begin to view eyebrows as a sign of verility and go after the dude with the bushiest ones... the one's with NO eyebrows die out and don't pass on their genes... those with thin eyebrows don't get laid, and thus don't pass on their genes.

[TheBigCaptain]

it sounds like these people who dont understand how evolution could have occurred need to open up a biology book and then come back so they know what they are talking about.

[taphntm]

jesus christ... do you think evolution is an entity... it's a description... predators whack prey... prey that doesn't survive, doesn't pass on its genes.
what I meant was evolution doesn't kill all the people without eyebrows in one day, it would have taken millions of years for something like that to happen, but in our history it would have maybe taken a few years since we have only existed for about 7,000 years and how long did homo erectus exist?

[taphntm]

it sounds like these people who dont understand how evolution could have occurred need to open up a biology book and then come back so they know what they are talking about.
believe me I know evolution probably as well as you

[jammin63]

I am way behind the times, but I saw the movie Contact the other day for the first time and I felt the movie made some great points concerning faith and science. If you haven't seen it, do yourself a favor and check it out.
-Jmn

[ExistenceNow]

what I meant was evolution doesn't kill all the people without eyebrows in one day, it would have taken millions of years for something like that to happen, but in our history it would have maybe taken a few years since we have only existed for about 7,000 years and how long did homo erectus exist?

modern humans have been evolving over the last 1.8 million years.

see the chart in this link and it will tell you how long homo erectus existed for...

http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html

[mikedevoss6]

what I meant was evolution doesn't kill all the people without eyebrows in one day, it would have taken millions of years for something like that to happen, but in our history it would have maybe taken a few years since we have only existed for about 7,000 years and how long did homo erectus exist?

Eyebrows aren't something we as humans gained, they just never changed and stayed with us after we evolved. There have never been tons of people without eyebrows.

[ExistenceNow]

it sounds like these people who dont understand how evolution could have occurred need to open up a biology book and then come back so they know what they are talking about.

thank you!!!!!!!!!!






believe me I know evolution probably as well as you

obviously you don't know much about it at all.

[alphatabs]

In the beginning Alphatabs created the babes and the hotties.
And the chests were without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the chicks.
And the Spirit of Davey Jones moved upon the face of the waters.
And Alpha said, Let there be booze: and there was booze.
And Alpha saw the booze, that it was kick ass

[ExistenceNow]

Eyebrows aren't something we as humans gained, they just never changed and stayed with us after we evolved. There have never been tons of people without eyebrows.

i know... i was just using it as a descriptive example of how evolution works.

[mikedevoss6]

i know... i was just using it as a descriptive example of how evolution works.

:confused I was responding to taph's post, as in the whole thing where eyebrows had to evolve onto our faces, and of course they didn't, they just never left.

[ExistenceNow]

:confused I was responding to taph's post.

oh... sorry... i was talking about it too and in a fashion that might indicate that i thought we acquired them.

[taphntm]

there wouldn't be just one person without eyebrows... there would be a lot... and there would be degrees of eyebrows... those who have none, die out fast... and thus females begin to view eyebrows as a sign of verility and go after the dude with the bushiest ones... the one's with NO eyebrows die out and don't pass on their genes... those with thin eyebrows don't get laid, and thus don't pass on their genes.
So you believe that if today we existed in caves and hunted animals that if a few people had eyebrows they would outlive and eventually wipe out all the people without eyebrows?

[ExistenceNow]

:confused I was responding to taph's post, as in the whole thing where eyebrows had to evolve onto our faces, and of course they didn't, they just never left.

oh... sorry... i was talking about it too and in a fashion that might indicate that i thought we acquired them.

exactly... it's the rest of the body hair that we lost.

[ExistenceNow]

So you believe that if today we existed in caves and hunted animals that if a few people had eyebrows they would outlive and eventually wipe out all the people without eyebrows?

would we have our current intelligence? Cuz if so, then no... we'd simply put mud over our eyes or something of the like... but we weren't so smart back in the day and ANY advantage/disadvantage mean't life or death.

humans aren't evolving too much anymore... our culture is so complex that sexual selection is out the window... an ugly cripple can get laid if he is rich... and modern medicine has tossed natural selection out the window.

[taphntm]

obviously you don't know much about it at all.
Who doesn't know about evolution?

[mikedevoss6]

So you believe that if today we existed in caves and hunted animals that if a few people had eyebrows they would outlive and eventually wipe out all the people without eyebrows?

If there were the right factors, yes. But you can't use eyebrows again, you're taking an example made to prove a point and injecting it into a real situation.

[ExistenceNow]

Who doesn't know about evolution?

i was talking about you... if you do know a lot about evolution, i apologize, but your questions and examples indicate that you don't have a firm grasp of what evolution really is... you're thinking about it too narrowly.

[Audrey]

Evolution has no purpose. At the individual scale it DOES occur at random.

A mutation can exist and be passed on in a population for tens or hundreds of generations before it has an advantage. It may never have an advantage. But if, at some point there is a change in the evnironment and the mutation/ characteristic is advantageous, those which have acquired it can survive to pass on their genes while those without it may die out....and the population has evolved.

[JumpLittleChild]

if you're interested in non-biblical/philosophical theories of creation... you should check out Intelligent Design Theory

here's a link to a site with links to information on ID... i think the theory is crap but it does provide actual arguments, and it's more interesting to me than religious "arguments".

http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/links.htm intelligent design makes me want to vomit.

[taphntm]

Evolution still hasn't explained the most basic of its argument how multicellular organisms exist. I saw something about how bacteria live together, but nothing where single celled organisms could have suddenly become multicellular organisms.

[ExistenceNow]

intelligent design makes me want to vomit.

same here bro... i think it's either a cop out or a pitiful attempt at a comprimise.

[ExistenceNow]

Evolution has no purpose. At the individual scale it DOES occur at random.

A mutation can exist and be passed on in a population for tens or hundreds of generations before it has an advantage. It may never have an advantage. But if, at some point there is a change in the evnironment and the mutation/ characteristic is advantageous, those which have acquired it can survive to pass on their genes while those without it may die out....and the population has evolved.


a person does not evolve. populations evolve. Evolution doesn't have a purpose, but saying it like that makes evolution seem like an entity.

but, the rest of the post :thumbsup

[JumpLittleChild]

same here bro... i think it's either a cop out or a pitiful attempt at a comprimise. its a creationsts attempt to get it into the schools under the guise of "scientific" merit

[taphntm]

If there were the right factors, yes. But you can't use eyebrows again, you're taking an example made to prove a point and injecting it into a real situation.
I'm using the eyebrows as a metaphor for all of our perfections such as earlobes and pinkys etc

[ExistenceNow]

Evolution still hasn't explained the most basic of its argument how multicellular organisms exist. I saw something about how bacteria live together, but nothing where single celled organisms could have suddenly become multicellular organisms.

its most basic argument is that a dead animal can't pass on its genes.

[Audrey]

a person does not evolve. populations evolve.


Yes, what I meant was the mutaions occur at random.

[ExistenceNow]

its a creationsts attempt to get it into the schools under the guise of "scientific" merit

tis what i think.... but at least that theory gives lines of reasoning (though they don't go anywhere) as opposed to saying "it says so in the bible".

[ExistenceNow]

Yes, what I meant was the mutaions occur at random.

oh... sorry... you are very much correct... sorry for misunderstanding you.

i can't remember what it's called right this second, but the thing that strings animal dna together is quite error prone...

edit: dna polymerase!

[taphntm]

i was talking about you... if you do know a lot about evolution, i apologize, but your questions and examples indicate that you don't have a firm grasp of what evolution really is... you're thinking about it too narrowly.
I'm not an expert but I've watched the discovery channel all my life as a kid :lol and I've taken a lot of science. I'm not an evolution major, but what I was saying was who doesn't know about evolution? (a rhetorical question)

[Tomriddle]

Haha, I leave to walk the dog and all this happens. Damn.

[Tomriddle]

Yes, what I meant was the mutaions occur at random.

No, they don't. Imagine how many random mutations it would take to get one beneficial one. Every other creature would have to be mutant.

Oh, and I agree with taphantm on most things in this thread.

[Tomriddle]

Evolution is common sense... if i go around the planet and whack every fuck who is under 6 feet tall including children, the next generation isn't going to have mother fuckers walking around who are 5'2".

Then how do you explain traits that aren't heredity? (Such as, say, the first fish with legs.)

[mikedevoss6]

Evolution still hasn't explained the most basic of its argument how multicellular organisms exist. I saw something about how bacteria live together, but nothing where single celled organisms could have suddenly become multicellular organisms.

Multicellular organisms exist because single celled organisms could not survive by themselves and eventually found cells that could help them survive. This group of cells stuck together and became a multicellular organism. It evolved and evolved until so many cells came together that there was an extremely complicated multicellular organisms.

[taphntm]

Oh, and I agree with taphantm on most things in this thread.

*choke*

*cough* hel... help....

[ExistenceNow]

No, they don't. Imagine how many random mutations it would take to get one beneficial one. Every other creature would have to be mutant.

Oh, and I agree with taphantm on most things in this thread.

yes, they do... the DNA Polymerase, when its stringing together dna strands, often makes mistakes... this is called a mutation.. and unless the Polymerase has a brain an agenda, its mistakes are random.

[Tomriddle]

there wouldn't be just one person without eyebrows... there would be a lot... and there would be degrees of eyebrows... those who have none, die out fast... and thus females begin to view eyebrows as a sign of verility and go after the dude with the bushiest ones... the one's with NO eyebrows die out and don't pass on their genes... those with thin eyebrows don't get laid, and thus don't pass on their genes.

Then how do explain traits that don't have degree? (Such as echolocation (dammnit, i cant spell that word.)

[Audrey]

No, they don't. Imagine how many random mutations it would take to get one beneficial one. Every other creature would have to be mutant.
.

Yes, they do...and they happen all the time. You are probably walking around with alleles/genes that were never present in either of your parents...and if you ever reproduce...you might pass them on.

[taphntm]

Multicellular organisms exist because single celled organisms could not survive by themselves and eventually found cells that could help them survive. This group of cells stuck together and became a multicellular organism. It evolved and evolved until so many cells came together that there was an extremely complicated multicellular organisms.
what is the theorem that things collapse into simpler systems? I can't remember the name of it... Why don't you think the world could exist without multicellular organisms? I think it would be a much more stable environment if all we had was bacteria.

[Tomriddle]

yes, they do... the DNA Polymerase, when its stringing together dna strands, often makes mistakes... this is called a mutation.. and unless the Polymerase has a brain an agenda, its mistakes are random.

Have you ever heard of self-organization?

[Audrey]

Then how do you explain traits that aren't heredity? (Such as, say, the first fish with legs.)

A fine example of a random mutation.

[Tomriddle]

Yes, they do...and they happen all the time. You are probably walking around with alleles/genes that were never present in either of your parents...and if you ever reproduce...you might pass them on.

There is a diffrence between 1 or 2 random alleles, and, say, kangroos developing a pouch. I;m talking about big, noticable mutations.

[mikedevoss6]

No, they don't. Imagine how many random mutations it would take to get one beneficial one. Every other creature would have to be mutant.

Oh, and I agree with taphantm on most things in this thread.

Wrong. Mutations are random. Your view of mutations is warped. Most muations are good when they happen inside the body. They happen much more frequently than people perceive. Much more often than not, a mutation IS beneficial. The misconception came about in the english language somehow and now its connotation in english has become a lot different than its actual scientific definition.

[Tomriddle]

A fine example of a random mutation.

Consider how many possible ways a fish can mutate- again, probablity. It doesnt make sense. Every other fish would have to be drastically diffrent for one to be so lucky as to get a good mutation.

Oh, and who would the first land-fish have sex with?

[Audrey]

Then how do explain traits that don't have degree? (Such as echolocation (dammnit, i cant spell that word.)

There may have been bats flying (or walking) around with echolocation for millenia before it became advantageous.

[taphntm]

yes, they do... the DNA Polymerase, when its stringing together dna strands, often makes mistakes... this is called a mutation.. and unless the Polymerase has a brain an agenda, its mistakes are random.
but how often are mutations extremely beneficial such as claws or suddenly having 4 legs?

[Tomriddle]

[QUOTE=mikedevoss6]Wrong. Mutations are random. Your view of mutations is warped. Most muations are good when they happen inside the body. [QUOTE]
Does that not seem strange to you? COnsider the trillions of possible mutations? Most of them are positive? I'd imagine almost all are negative because there are more wrong combinations than right ones (thermodynamics.)

[Tomriddle]

Peace out yall- Id love to help you taphntm but storytellers is on. ill b back.

[mikedevoss6]

what is the theorem that things collapse into simpler systems? I can't remember the name of it... Why don't you think the world could exist without multicellular organisms? I think it would be a much more stable environment if all we had was bacteria.

Things only collapse into simpler systems when there is no need for them to stay together. The only way single cell organisms could stay alive is with the help of another cell, and then they needed something, and so on and so forth.

[ExistenceNow]

but how often are mutations extremely beneficial such as claws or suddenly having 4 legs?

see.. you don't know evolution... you don't SUDDENLY have anything. a frog isn't all of a sudden going to give birth to a mouse. but give it a few million years and a few hundred thousand generations....

[taphntm]

evolutionists say that creatures were first amphibious before they walked on land... they believe some creatures like alligators came later and then so on and so forth

woo wee, I know a little evolution!

[mikedevoss6]

[QUOTE=mikedevoss6]Wrong. Mutations are random. Your view of mutations is warped. Most muations are good when they happen inside the body. [QUOTE]
Does that not seem strange to you? COnsider the trillions of possible mutations? Most of them are positive? I'd imagine almost all are negative because there are more wrong combinations than right ones (thermodynamics.)

Actually I was wrong there. Most of them are not positive, most mean absolutely nothing. A very small percent of them make a difference, and more are positive differences.

[Audrey]

There is a diffrence between 1 or 2 random alleles, and, say, kangroos developing a pouch. I;m talking about big, noticable mutations.

It's not likely that a kangaroo ever developed a pouch. More likely that they would evolve from other animals (marsupials) that had pouches. And if you can follow the evolutionary ladder back far enough, that pouch was most likely, at some point, a mutation.

[mikedevoss6]

I really wish we had an evolutionary scientist in here. Seriously.

[FunkyTeaParty]

I always considered Patrick Ewing as proof of evolution.

[Evans]

To me, evolution is just as laughable as creationism is to some of you.

I think evolution is a joke, and logically speaking, it should take a lot more effort to believe in evolution than to believe in creationism.

If you don't see a God in this world, even after stopping to look around, you are blind.

[taphntm]

Peace out yall- Id love to help you taphntm but storytellers is on. ill b back.
will you please evolve some telepathy and a 6th finger while you're gone? maybe we will do a little better.

[ExistenceNow]

evolutionists say that creatures were first amphibious before they walked on land... they believe some creatures like alligators came later and then so on and so forth

woo wee, I know a little evolution!

sweet...

[taphntm]

nobody told you we evolved from alligators

[Audrey]

evolutionists say that creatures were first amphibious before they walked on land... they believe some creatures like alligators came later and then so on and so forth

woo wee, I know a little evolution!

Come on...you can get that much froma T-shirt!

[mikedevoss6]

To me, evolution is just as laughable as creationism is to some of you.

I think evolution is a joke, and logically speaking, it should take a lot more effort to believe in evolution than to believe in creationism.

If you don't see a God in this world, even after stopping to look around, you are blind.

That is seriously ridiculous. Evolution is a fact. People just don't say that because it's a sensitive topic. Arguing against evolution is as ignorant as arguing against the existence of dinosaurs. There is no way we can absolutely PROVE dinosaurs once LIVED, but we know it happened. Evolution is the same.

[taphntm]

I really wish we had an evolutionary scientist in here. Seriously.
I agree, I also wish we had God in here too.

Hello? God? Can I get some help here?

[taphntm]

Come on...you can get that much froma T-shirt!
:lol did you know that though?

[mikedevoss6]

I agree, I also wish we had God in here too.

Hello? God? Can I get some help here?

:lol That was good.

[ExistenceNow]

To me, evolution is just as laughable as creationism is to some of you.

I think evolution is a joke, and logically speaking, it should take a lot more effort to believe in evolution than to believe in creationism.

If you don't see a God in this world, even after stopping to look around, you are blind.

that may be the dumbest thing i have ever heard in my 23 years on this earth. congratulations.

if you can't believe what science shows you, even after stopping to read a book... oh wait... never mind... you've probly only read one book, and if you give me a bit, i'm sure i can guess which one.

[mikedevoss6]

See, at least we can have civil conversation with people like taph and tomriddle in here. I very much hope Evans never posts here again.

[taphntm]

None of you know how much I know about evolution so why do you keep trying to say how much I don't know? That's not going to get us anywhere.

[mikedevoss6]

None of you know how much I know about evolution so why do you keep trying to say how much I don't know? That's not going to get us anywhere.

You are stupid, sir. No, I would have to disagree, YOU are the stupid one. HA! I laugh at that! The stupidity is all on YOUR side!:lol

[ExistenceNow]

None of you know how much I know about evolution so why do you keep trying to say how much I don't know? That's not going to get us anywhere.

you're showing how much you don't know by mis-stating what evolution says and by asking questions that, if you've read up on evolutionary biology, you'd never ask.

[taphntm]

Hello, this is God.

I'm taking over tapma;lms computer. I wish I could spell his name, it's so complicated.

Before I prove to you that evolution did not happen I want you to know Eric is a genius.

I said evolution isn't true. <proof

[ExistenceNow]

None of you know how much I know about evolution so why do you keep trying to say how much I don't know? That's not going to get us anywhere.

well... answer one question for me...

whether you believe that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor or not,

do you believe that animal populations have and do evolve?

oh... and one more important one... do you believe that evolution states that we evolved from monkeys?

[taphntm]

you're showing how much you don't know by mis-stating what evolution says and by asking questions that, if you've read up on evolutionary biology, you'd never ask.
I know evolution well, but I'm not an expert. I never said I was an evolutionary expert. But I know a lot about it just like anyone else.

[mikedevoss6]

Hello, this is God.

I'm taking over tapma;lms computer. I wish I could spell his name, it's so complicated.

Before I prove to you that evolution did not happen I want you to know Eric is a genius.

I said evolution isn't true. <proof

That's about as good as the Creationism argument gets. And that is not a joke.

[mikedevoss6]

!
I just remembered that if we have any technical questions, I have my Biology book in my backpack. I took the class last year 2nd semester and never gave the book back.

[taphntm]

well... answer one question for me...

whether you believe that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor or not,

do you believe that animal populations have and do evolve?

oh... and one more important one... do you believe that evolution states that we evolved from monkeys?
I don't believe they evolve in the way they supposedly have in the past, but of course I believe in natural selection and survival of the fittest. I know that an animal that is immune from a disease will outlive the other as well as creatures that learn not to eat poisonous plants. But I don't believe that animals evolve legs and things like that.

[ExistenceNow]

I know evolution well, but I'm not an expert. I never said I was an evolutionary expert. But I know a lot about it just like anyone else.

well i wouldn't say just like anyone else... anyone else doesn't know shit and they say stupid shit like "we didn't come from monkeys... if we did, why are monkeys still here?" you know more than most people but i dont think you understand it enough to realize how simple the process is and that it is as disputable of a "theory" as the "theory" of gravity.

[mikedevoss6]

I don't believe they evolve in the way they supposedly have in the past, but of course I believe in natural selection and survival of the fittest. I know that an animal that is immune from a disease will outlive the other as well as creatures that learn not to eat poisonous plants. But I don't believe that animals evolve legs and things like that.

Natural selection and survival of the fittest DO explain animals getting legs. That was a contradiction.

[ExistenceNow]

I don't believe they evolve in the way they supposedly have in the past, but of course I believe in natural selection and survival of the fittest. I know that an animal that is immune from a disease will outlive the other as well as creatures that learn not to eat poisonous plants. But I don't believe that animals evolve legs and things like that.

learned behaviors cannot be passed on to offspring... therefore, even if an animal learned not to eat a poisonous plant, that wouldn't do shit for the population.

[taphntm]

Yeah, if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't believe in evolution either. I would believe in some other god maybe, but not in evolution... or maybe that the earth evolved in a different way than we know.

[ExistenceNow]

Yeah, if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't believe in evolution either. I would believe in some other god maybe, but not in evolution... or maybe that the earth evolved in a different way than we know.

so what do you say about radiocarbon dating? voodoo?

[taphntm]

well i wouldn't say just like anyone else... anyone else doesn't know shit and they say stupid shit like "we didn't come from monkeys... if we did, why are monkeys still here?" you know more than most people but i dont think you understand it enough to realize how simple the process is and that it is as disputable of a "theory" as the "theory" of gravity.
Anyone who knows about biology knows the body is not simple. It is effective. Evolving from a single celled organism into a multicellular organism is not simple. Survival of the fittest is. We wouldn't evolve legs from it, but we would become immune to diseases and maybe evolve an eyebrow, but not everything. There had to be some sort of "mother nature"

[taphntm]

so what do you say about radiocarbon dating? voodoo?
No, I know the dirt was made as if it was already there and it's possible the earth was supposed to look like it evolved.

I can quote myself from the other thread in a sec.

[Audrey]

I know that an animal that is immune from a disease will outlive the other as well as creatures that learn not to eat poisonous plants. But I don't believe that animals evolve legs and things like that.

How is it that you can believe a poulation of animals can evolve characteristics to fight a disease but not to develop legs? Perhaps, because legs are so visible to you. But is an immune system any less complicated than a skeletal system?

[mikedevoss6]

Yeah, if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't believe in evolution either. I would believe in some other god maybe, but not in evolution... or maybe that the earth evolved in a different way than we know.

Don't you think that maybe you're just resisting the fact of evolution because you don't want to feel like you're going against your religion? If you're Christian, you can still believe in evolution. This information if you're a Christian. I don't know if you are or not.

[mikedevoss6]

Anyone who knows about biology knows the body is not simple. It is effective. Evolving from a single celled organism into a multicellular organism is not simple. Survival of the fittest is. We wouldn't evolve legs from it, but we would become immune to diseases and maybe evolve an eyebrow, but not everything. There had to be some sort of "mother nature"

Yes, YOU CAN EVOLVE LEGS THROUGH THIS!

[mikedevoss6]

You are just undereducated on evolution and instead of trying to learn about it, you take that uncertainty and make it into a proof for creationism

[taphntm]

please excuse my lack of expertise. I made up the time frames, I was exaggerating with the millions and billions

http://antsmarching.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3092858&postcount=189

http://antsmarching.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3093447&postcount=192

http://antsmarching.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3093595&postcount=193

[ExistenceNow]

No, I know the dirt was made as if it was already there and it's possible the earth was supposed to look like it evolved.

I can quote myself from the other thread in a sec.

supposed to look like it evolved? that's quite the conspiracy theory... don't know quite what to say to that.

[taphntm]

Yes, YOU CAN EVOLVE LEGS THROUGH THIS!
if a creature evolved legs then there must have already been an environment in which it could have existed on... The prey, or trees had to be there already to exist where they could be eaten... so as soon as it evolved legs there must have been food for it on land

[Audrey]

Anyone who knows about biology knows the body is not simple. It is effective. Evolving from a single celled organism into a multicellular organism is not simple. Survival of the fittest is. We wouldn't evolve legs from it, but we would become immune to diseases and maybe evolve an eyebrow, but not everything. There had to be some sort of "mother nature"

I'm sorry to say it but you are professing your ignorance here. Because you "understand" the concept of survival of the fittest, you accept it. But because you cannot wrap your head around the evolution of limbs, you reject it.

[taphntm]

Since when in our lifetimes did we ever see something literally evolve from survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest>evolution was made up.

[Audrey]

supposed to look like it evolved? that's quite the conspiracy theory... don't know quite what to say to that.

I think it's the "god is tricking/testing us" theory!

[mikedevoss6]

if a creature evolved legs then there must have already been an environment in which it could have existed on... The prey, or trees had to be there already to exist where they could be eaten... so as soon as it evolved legs there must have been food for it on land

This is REALLY where I need an expert on this. I am 100% sure that legs casn be evolved, but cannot explain it because I am not an expert on the process. I'm gonna (and I never EVER thought I'd say this b/c science is my most hated subject in school) look through my bio book to see if I can find the info.

[ExistenceNow]

Since when in our lifetimes did we ever see something literally evolve from survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest>evolution was made up.

that's the point... you can't see a population evolve drastically in our lifetime... it takes hundreds of their generations for something to evolve drastically... but there are small evolutions going on right now... just look at any animal population on the planet that is not domesticated.

[taphntm]

supposed to look like it evolved? that's quite the conspiracy theory... don't know quite what to say to that.
How about a conspiracy to flood the earth? It's something I believe in. I believe God could make a conspiracy to do that such as the Roman government to kill people.

[Evans]

that may be the dumbest thing i have ever heard in my 23 years on this earth. congratulations.

if you can't believe what science shows you, even after stopping to read a book... oh wait... never mind... you've probly only read one book, and if you give me a bit, i'm sure i can guess which one.

Feeble. If you read a science book hundreds of years ago, you would be among the naive who spouted about how the earth was flat. Don't believe everything you read in a science book. Science is just our best way of understanding the world around us to the best of our current ability.

And i find it quite amusing that the dumbest thing you ever heard in 23 years was the Truth.

[FunkyTeaParty]

!
I just remembered that if we have any technical questions, I have my Biology book in my backpack. I took the class last year 2nd semester and never gave the book back.

Another liberal college teaching trumped up subjects like "Biology".

[taphntm]

This is not fair, it's one on 100

edit: I don't feel like I'm responding to everyone so I'm sorry if it feels like I'm ignoring anyone

[Evans]

See, at least we can have civil conversation with people like taph and tomriddle in here. I very much hope Evans never posts here again.

I've been here for over 3 years. Get used to it.

[mikedevoss6]

Feeble. If you read a science book hundreds of years ago, you would be among the naive who spouted about how the earth was flat. Don't believe everything you read in a science book. Science is just our best way of understanding the world around us to the best of our current ability.

And i find it quite amusing that the dumbest thing you ever heard in 23 years was the Truth.

wow.

[mikedevoss6]

Another liberal college teaching trumped up subjects like "Biology".

:lol
High School, BTW

[ExistenceNow]

Feeble. If you read a science book hundreds of years ago, you would be among the naive who spouted about how the earth was flat. Don't believe everything you read in a science book. Science is just our best way of understanding the world around us to the best of our current ability.

And i find it quite amusing that the dumbest thing you ever heard in 23 years was the Truth.

Truth with a capital T... uh oh... and i hate to tell you this bro but science is cumulative... we don't make the shit up every 5 years... people couldn't see the earth when they thought it was flat... back then science was more speculative... i can see for my self how many carbon molecules are in a rock and how many have broken down... unless you think that in a hundred or so years science will prove that 1+1 does not in fact equal 2.

[FunkyTeaParty]

:lol
High School, BTW

Home schooling is the way to go.

[Audrey]

if a creature evolved legs then there must have already been an environment in which it could have existed on... The prey, or trees had to be there already to exist where they could be eaten... so as soon as it evolved legs there must have been food for it on land

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Although previously toxic (to animals), the evolution of green plants caused the atmosphere to become oxygen rich. Suddenly there was a massive habit (land) that was being unexploited and had no predators, so it was advantageous for those sea creatures that COULD come out of the sea to do that...now they had new environmental conditions, putting new pressures on them and therefore making previously benign mutations advantageous.

Have you ever heard of a coelocanth?

It's a very rare fish...with legs.

[mikedevoss6]

Feeble. If you read a science book hundreds of years ago, you would be among the naive who spouted about how the earth was flat. Don't believe everything you read in a science book. Science is just our best way of understanding the world around us to the best of our current ability.

And i find it quite amusing that the dumbest thing you ever heard in 23 years was the Truth.

Ok. Grace us with your infallible knowledge of the disproof of evolution.

[FunkyTeaParty]

Have you ever heard of a coelocanth?

It's a very rare fish...with legs.

Yeah, right. What's your next post gonna be about, a talking bush?

[taphntm]

that's the point... you can't see a population evolve drastically in our lifetime... it takes hundreds of their generations for something to evolve drastically... but there are small evolutions going on right now... just look at any animal population on the planet that is not domesticated.
Ok, let's assume I believe that evolution makes perfect sense... Where did my soul come from?

[ExistenceNow]

Ok. Grace us with your infallible knowledge of the disproof of evolution.

The bible says so. you're not going to get an argument from someone who spells truth with a capital T. Capitalizing it makes it True.

[Audrey]

Yeah, right. What's your next post gonna be about, a talking bush?

I don't get it!

[ExistenceNow]

Ok, let's assume that evolution makes perfect sense... Where did my soul come from?


prove to me that you have a soul.

[FunkyTeaParty]

Ok, let's assume that evolution makes perfect sense... Where did my soul come from?

I got mine from the late, great Luther Vandross. :( :(

[taphntm]

prove to me that you have a soul.
:lol you mean I can't change the subject to something I feel like I have more knowledge on?

edit: you must have edited your post right before I quoted it

[JumpLittleChild]

This is REALLY where I need an expert on this. I am 100% sure that legs casn be evolved, but cannot explain it because I am not an expert on the process. I'm gonna (and I never EVER thought I'd say this b/c science is my most hated subject in school) look through my bio book to see if I can find the info. any body part can evolve based upoon the evolutionary needs and the reaction to the environment. Its incredibly simple really. Why is the average humans in 2000 a few inches taller than the average human from 1600 if we are not evolving? Legs are getting longer, torso's are expanding, arms are getting longer. As the environment changes, we evolve.

[Evans]

prove to me that you have a soul.

prove to me that you don't.

[taphntm]

I have a soul because I exist in this body. If this body existed without a soul I would not be in control. This body would be a computer which would calculate every move. It would exist in perfect harmony with the mind, but instead there is a soul that makes decisions.

[taphntm]

prove to me that you don't.
thanks :)

[Audrey]

I have a soul because I exist in this body. If this body existed without a soul I would not be in control. This body would be a computer which would calculate every move. It would exist in perfect harmony with the mind, but instead there is a soul that makes decisions.

That's your mind.

[ExistenceNow]

prove to me that you don't.

prove to me that evolution is false... oh yea... you don't go in for the proof thing. and aparantly you don't know how philosophy works... taphn asked me to explain how he has a soul... but before you can explain how, you first have to establish whether it's there or not at all.... go read a book. seriously.

[JumpLittleChild]

prove to me that you don't. but I'm not a soldier

[taphntm]

That's your mind.
my mind can exist on it's own. Why am I seeing things? my mind is something different, my mind sees things, but who am I? I am not a physical thing...

[Evans]

Ok. Grace us with your infallible knowledge of the disproof of evolution.

There is no need for me to do that. I simply don't believe it based on what I see in this world and what I read in the Bible. The world around us is too complicated and amazing to be a mistake. It is that simple. But we humans, we always want to believe that we are God, and we know everything already...taking the glory away from God. To suggest it is all an accident is simply laughable to me.

[Audrey]

my mind can exist on it's own. Why am I seeing things? my mind is something different, my mind sees things, but who am I? I am not a physical thing...

Yes, you are.

[Audrey]

but I'm not a soldier

:thumbsup

[taphntm]

prove to me that evolution is false... oh yea... you don't go in for the proof thing.
you know, I think the world might look like it evolved, but if it had it didn't do it by chance. It was possibly made to look that way. But it could have only been made that way and not have happened to work. I don't believe in evolution and creation. I would be dumb if I did, I am dumb anyway, but I'd be a little extra dumb if I believed in both.

[Evans]

I wouldn't trust a man's word on his own infallibility.



Interesting, you make this statement in response to why you don't believe in something out of the Bible...however, you must then say the same about Mr. Darwin correct? Unless he is infallible in your eyes. Between God and Darwin, I'm gonna have to side with God where "infallible" is concerned...among other things.

[ExistenceNow]

There is no need for me to do that. I simply don't believe it based on what I see in this world and what I read in the Bible. The world around us is too complicated and amazing to be a mistake. It is that simple. But we humans, we always want to believe that we are God, and we know everything already...taking the glory away from God. To suggest it is all an accident is simply laughable to me.

what is laughable is the fact that people like you actually exist... your God gave you a brain... use the fucking thing.

[mikedevoss6]

There is no need for me to do that. I simply don't believe it based on what I see in this world and what I read in the Bible. The world around us is too complicated and amazing to be a mistake. It is that simple. But we humans, we always want to believe that we are God, and we know everything already...taking the glory away from God. To suggest it is all an accident is simply laughable to me.

Evolution doesn't suggest creation is an accident. That's a big bang thing you're getting into. I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

[JumpLittleChild]

I have a soul because I exist in this body. If this body existed without a soul I would not be in control. This body would be a computer which would calculate every move. It would exist in perfect harmony with the mind, but instead there is a soul that makes decisions. I believe there has been one or two studies that has proven every human contains a brain, and that the brain is how people make decisions.

"...but honestly, Judge, it wasn't me who killed that guy, it was my soul. . ."

[Tyggress]

learned behaviors cannot be passed on to offspring... therefore, even if an animal learned not to eat a poisonous plant, that wouldn't do shit for the population.

Serious question here (I just found this thread and I'm catching up~!):

Does this apply to humans or not? It would seem that we can certainly learn and pass that knowledge to our kids.

[Evans]

what is laughable is the fact that people like you actually exist... your God gave you a brain... use the fucking thing.

between the two of us, I'm gonna say i'm using my brain more often, if you have to resort to the word "fucking". You know studies have proven (while we're talking about proof) that cussing is a sign of lack of intelligence.

[taphntm]

Yes, you are.
my mind is imperfect just like a rock. brain cells move along individually to create one major function. The body is imperfect, there is no one physical thing that holds the body together like one perfect electron... The one thing that holds our body together with our soul is God. Our soul exists in this body because of God and is not a physical thing.

[FunkyTeaParty]

I think creationists best argument is how did life matter get here?.

[JumpLittleChild]

my mind can exist on it's own. Why am I seeing things? my mind is something different, my mind sees things, but who am I? I am not a physical thing... Your eyes send the images to your brain, which process them. You are a physical being, yes. If you don't believe so, see a psychologist.

[ExistenceNow]

Serious question here (I just found this thread and I'm catching up~!):

Does this apply to humans or not? It would seem that we can certainly learn and pass that knowledge to our kids.

i meant genetically... intelligent animals can pass on learned behaviors but through teaching, not through procreation.

[Audrey]

Serious question here (I just found this thread and I'm catching up~!):

Does this apply to humans or not? It would seem that we can certainly learn and pass that knowledge to our kids.

It cannot be passed on through heredity.

[Evans]

Evolution doesn't suggest creation is an accident. That's a big bang thing you're getting into. I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

"big bang" and "evolution" are in the same bowl of cherries. Look there either is a God or there is not a God. Fact is, God doesn't exist in the "big bang" or "evolution" theories. Therefore, everything is just happening on its own.

[taphntm]

we have a soul and there is no denying that. It's something separate from our body.

[JumpLittleChild]

between the two of us, I'm gonna say i'm using my brain more often, if you have to resort to the word "fucking". You know studies have proven (while we're talking about proof) that cussing is a sign of lack of intelligence. studies have also proven that people who don't believe in evolution and use the word cussing die before the age of 40, lets not try to match wits, we've all been on these boards "for three years, get used to it"

[JumpLittleChild]

we have a soul and there is no denying that. It's something separate from our body. prove it

[ExistenceNow]

between the two of us, I'm gonna say i'm using my brain more often, if you have to resort to the word "fucking". You know studies have proven (while we're talking about proof) that cussing is a sign of lack of intelligence.

actually, those studies do not show that at all... there are too many variables... an intelligent person can use a curse word to express emotion or to add emphasis to a sentence, not because they are lacking another suitable word...

[taphntm]

I think I'm about to break the transmission in my brain.

[Audrey]

my mind is imperfect just like a rock. brain cells move along individually to create one major function. The body is imperfect, there is no one physical thing that holds the body together like one perfect electron... The one thing that holds our body together with our soul is God. Our soul exists in this body because of God and is not a physical thing.

...assuming there is a god...which you obviously do... but I don't.

So...we can argue this all night but never resolve anything because we are working on different basic assumptions. :)

[mikedevoss6]

"big bang" and "evolution" are in the same bowl of cherries. Look there either is a God or there is not a God. Fact is, God doesn't exist in the "big bang" or "evolution" theories. Therefore, everything is just happening on its own.

Yes, he can exist. To ignore the acceptance of evolution and especially to ignore the accptance of the big bang theory in Christianity or any other religion including a God is ridiculous.

[JumpLittleChild]

I think I'm about to break the transmission in my brain. thats not funny, as that would be suicide, or at least vegetebalism

[JumpLittleChild]

actually, those studies do not show that at all... there are too many variables... an intelligent person can use a curse word to express emotion or to add emphasis to a sentence, not because they are lacking another suitable word... it would depend on the study. Its probably not an argument you want to start or would win.

[mikedevoss6]

it would depend on the study. Its probably not an argument you want to start or would win.

Exactly. This is pretty unnecessary in the discussion we're actually having

[Audrey]

Yes, he can exist. To ignore the acceptance of evolution and especially to ignore the accptance of the big bang theory in Christianity or any other religion including a God is ridiculous.

yeah...I'm no longer practising but I was raised catholic and went to catholic school and we were taught about evolution and the Big Bang without conflict!

[ExistenceNow]

it would depend on the study. Its probably not an argument you want to start or would win.

well... you can't prove that i'm not intelligent and i swear... so i'm not worried about the argument...

[Tyggress]

we have a soul and there is no denying that. It's something separate from our body.

Hmmmm...but what makes up our "soul"?

[FunkyTeaParty]

Hmmmm...but what makes up our "soul"?

Angel dander.

[taphntm]

prove it
I wish I could explain this perfectly, but I'm still human. I wish I could hold it in my hand and show you, but our mind is a physical thing.

What are molecules? Molecules are atoms, electrons, protons and neutrons. Are electrons perfect? No. We know that these things can be created and destroyed. E=mc² Energy = matter x speed of light squared
What is energy? Maybe it's photons, but science hasn't discovered that yet. So our minds are made of these molecules which are combined into a body.

Our body is a combination of molecules which are imperfect, they can be created or destroyed in a moment. The creation or destruction of a body is imperfect. However...

We have a soul. I can see through the bodies eyes. I am one being. A perfect number. The body is made of quintillions of molecules and atoms that are imperfect. There is something that must connect the imperfect to the perfect.

[Evans]

studies have also proven that people who don't believe in evolution and use the word cussing die before the age of 40, lets not try to match wits, we've all been on these boards "for three years, get used to it"

?

I don't quite know where to start with that....

[mikedevoss6]

Hmmmm...but what makes up our "soul"?

Here's how taph explained. I really don't get it or buy into "souls" for that matter.

my mind is imperfect just like a rock. brain cells move along individually to create one major function. The body is imperfect, there is no one physical thing that holds the body together like one perfect electron... The one thing that holds our body together with our soul is God. Our soul exists in this body because of God and is not a physical thing.

[Audrey]

well... you can't prove that i'm not intelligent and i swear... so i'm not worried about the argument...

Studies are based on statistics...there are obviously individual exceptions!

[taphntm]

...assuming there is a god...which you obviously do... but I don't.

So...we can argue this all night but never resolve anything because we are working on different basic assumptions. :)
Sorry, I accidentally used God because I was getting desperate. As you can tell my transmission broke. :lol (metaphor for I am going crazy)

[Evans]

yeah...I'm no longer practising but I was raised catholic and went to catholic school and we were taught about evolution and the Big Bang without conflict!

We could start a whole new thread arguing about whether Catholics are actually Christians. To me, this statement is no shock.

[Audrey]

I wish I could explain this perfectly, but I'm still human. I wish I could hold it in my hand and show you, but our mind is a physical thing.

What are molecules? Molecules are atoms, electrons, protons and neutrons. Are electrons perfect? No. We know that these things can be created and destroyed. E=mc² Energy = matter x speed of light squared
What is energy? Maybe it's photons, but science hasn't discovered that yet. So our minds are made of these molecules which are combined into a body.

Our body is a combination of molecules which are imperfect, they can be created or destroyed in a moment. The creation or destruction of a body is imperfect. However...

We have a soul. I can see through the bodies eyes. I am one being. A perfect number. The body is made of quintillions of molecules and atoms that are imperfect. There is something that must connect the imperfect to the perfect.

This is very romantic...but it doesn't prove anything.

[mikedevoss6]

We could start a whole new thread arguing about whether Catholics are actually Christians. To me, this statement is no shock.

I don't think I've heard about this one. Catholics are probably the least controversially Christian subgroup of Christianity

[JumpLittleChild]

I don't know what I enjoy more, the fact that Taf continually accepted evolution throughout this thread without realizing it, and then states that he doesn't, or the tough guy act from Reverend Evans.

[FunkyTeaParty]

I don't think I've heard about this one. Catholics are probably the least controversially Christian subgroup of Christianity

Thus their banishment from "the club".

[Audrey]

We could start a whole new thread arguing about whether Catholics are actually Christians. To me, this statement is no shock.

Weren't Catholics the initial Christians?

[Evans]

I don't think I've heard about this one. Catholics are probably the least controversially Christian subgroup of Christianity

There is a great debate about whether or not Catholics are Christians, and this is based on how the church operates. I won't get into it, but for example, the whole idea of a "pope" is seen by many as idolatry. That is the tip of that iceberg.

[mikedevoss6]

Thus their banishment from "the club".

I haven't heard anything of this. Catholics not Christians? That definitely makes no sense to me.

[JumpLittleChild]

I wish I could explain this perfectly, but I'm still human. I wish I could hold it in my hand and show you, but our mind is a physical thing.

What are molecules? Molecules are atoms, electrons, protons and neutrons. Are electrons perfect? No. We know that these things can be created and destroyed. E=mc² Energy = matter x speed of light squared
What is energy? Maybe it's photons, but science hasn't discovered that yet. So our minds are made of these molecules which are combined into a body.

Our body is a combination of molecules which are imperfect, they can be created or destroyed in a moment. The creation or destruction of a body is imperfect. However...

We have a soul. I can see through the bodies eyes. I am one being. A perfect number. The body is made of quintillions of molecules and atoms that are imperfect. There is something that must connect the imperfect to the perfect. so you can't prove it, but because you believe in it, it must exist?

[taphntm]

This is very romantic...but it doesn't prove anything.
There are robots that we have created that have free will in a sense. They perform the exact same function as our brain. Do they see through their cameras in a dim way just the same way as we do? Obviously you exist in your body and you know that. You know you exist in the body you are in right now. So since that robot is the exact same thing, only much dumber it should exist in the same way if a mind is a soul.

[mikedevoss6]

There is a great debate about whether or not Catholics are Christians, and this is based on how the church operates. I won't get into it, but for example, the whole idea of a "pope" is seen by many as idolatry. That is the tip of that iceberg.

That's just horseshit people dug up because they wanted to start controversy. They don't worship the pope, he is just the head of their religion

[Evans]

Weren't Catholics the initial Christians?

yes they were. However, that is why we have protestants today. There were people in the Catholic church who were not living Christian lives and they were destroying the church. That is when the Great Schizm happened, and a large number of people left the church to get back to their roots. Thus, that is why they are called PROTESTants. They were in protest to how the Catholics were doing things.

[taphntm]

Weren't Catholics the initial Christians?
NO!

the original christians were not denominated They just had elders and deacons, they didn't have popes and creeds. The words of the apostles were their creed

[JumpLittleChild]

They perform the exact same function as our brain. wrong.

[Audrey]

There are robots that we have created that have free will in a sense. They perform the exact same function as our brain. Do they see through their cameras in a dim way just the same way as we do? Obviously you exist in your body and you know that. You know you exist in the body you are in right now. So since that robot is the exact same thing, only much dumber it should exist in the same way if a mind is a soul.

I don't think robots have culture or conscience.

[ExistenceNow]

There is a great debate about whether or not Catholics ar