New York Yankees [Archive] - Page 73 - Antsmarching.org Forums

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 12:14 PM

Andy!!! I'm happy if this happens :)

The Yankees are in serious talks with Andy Pettitte, and there is a lot of optimism a deal will get done, SI.com has learned.

Both sides are working hard to push through a one-year contract. Indications are that Pettitte will receive less guaranteed money than the $10 million the Yankees originally had on the table for two months before he turned it down.

Pettitte went 14-14 with a 4.54 ERA for New York last season, earning $16 million in the process.

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 12:24 PM

Meh, I'd much rather look into Sheets.

But I can't complain about adding another arm, and there is sentimental value with Pettitte. The more arms they add, the better.

jmudmbphan

01-26-2009, 12:48 PM

6 Mil guartenteed, another 6 Mil in incentives...not a bad deal for the yankees.

MistreatedLewis

01-26-2009, 01:13 PM

Andy is a pretty good option for a 5th starter. Possibly the best 5th starter in MLB?

jmudmbphan

01-26-2009, 01:14 PM

I'd definitely agree.

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 01:27 PM

$6 million guaranteed is about what he's worth, and he's a very viable 4th or 5th starter. It's nice to be able to start Hughes off in AAA now and use him as a 6th starter in case someone goes down.

1. Damon, LF
2. Jeter, SS
3. Teixeira, 1B
4. Rodriguez, 3B
5. Cano, 2B
6. Matsui, DH
7. Posada, C
8. Nady/Swisher, RF
9. Gardner/Cabrera, CF

1. Sabathia, LHP
2. Burnett, RHP
3. Wang, RHP
4. Pettitte, LHP
5. Chamberlain, RHP

Looking forward to the season.

DmBand801

01-26-2009, 01:29 PM

^^ that lineup and rotation are ridiculous.

MistreatedLewis

01-26-2009, 01:29 PM

^ That's a really great team, on paper.

DmBand801

01-26-2009, 01:33 PM

^ That's a really great team, on paper.

Agreed.

My question is, will Posada return to his normal form next year?

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:19 PM

I am so pumped for this season. Can't wait to lock up my season tickets.

Torre exerpt. Book sounds pretty sweet

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/01/26/torre.verducci/index.html

jmudmbphan

01-26-2009, 02:21 PM

When do single game tickets go on sale?

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:26 PM

When do single game tickets go on sale?

Well I called them and they are saying existing season ticket holders may not lock up their tickets until early March, which means new season ticket holders in mid-March, and single tickets at the end of March. But this seems like it is cutting it too close, I wouldn't be surprised if they let me know about my tickets in mid-Feb.

thestand

01-26-2009, 02:27 PM

When do single game tickets go on sale?

From all reports, it looks like they're going to stall to the last second, to bleed as many season/half season/ticket runs/etc., before putting up singles. But it can't be too much longer.

crashintome202

01-26-2009, 02:36 PM

from what ive heard the tickets for the new stadium are all f'd up. im a partial season ticket holder and we still havent heard anything yet. i wouldn't expect single game tickets to go on sale til march

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:39 PM

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:40 PM

Now that we are close to locking up Andy, if everybody stays healthy, I would seriously consider:

Fatbathia
Burnett
Wang
Andy
Hughes

Joba in the bullpen.

Especially if Joba's innings limit is 140.

crashintome202

01-26-2009, 02:46 PM

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2009/01/joba-chamberlai.html

i agree saying that having joba for 140-150 innings is better than whoever else for the whole season

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:51 PM

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2009/01/joba-chamberlai.html

i agree saying that having joba for 140-150 innings is better than whoever else for the whole season

Unless Hughes turns into what they think he is going to be.

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 02:54 PM

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 02:56 PM

Yeah I sorta agree that he could be a great starter as long as his arm holds up, but he was so dominating in the 'pen I would love for them to keep him there. I just can't get off of him in the 'pen until this innings limit bullshit is dropped. I hate that.

Trippin4136

01-26-2009, 03:00 PM

Joba in the bullpen is a terrible idea, unless he proves he can't cut it as a plus starter..and he hasn't proven that yet.

Moving the guy back and forth from bullpen to rotation is doing nothing to preserve his arm. They are running a bigger risk of injuring him that way. Just limit his innings in-game, and occasionally skip his start in the rotation if you don't want to overwork him.

Agreed, they're better of skipping starts than shuttling him back and forth.

But to be fair, this whole notion of moving from rotation to starter affecting his arm , in my opinion, is overblown.

It's more an issue of picking a course of action and sticking with it.

HoldemHart

01-26-2009, 03:30 PM

I am so pumped for this season. Can't wait to lock up my season tickets.

Torre exerpt. Book sounds pretty sweet

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/01/26/torre.verducci/index.html

Cashman=Judas

Trippin4136

01-26-2009, 03:32 PM

Cashman=Judas

Cashman=knew what the Steinbrenners answers would be.

Not Judas, he wimped out.

You also have to think about the other side of the coin. Maybe, Cashman DID bring up Torre's proposal only to be immediately shot down and told "don't bring it up in the meeting" for the Steinbrenner's fear of getting into an argument they did not want to have.

Cashman saved Torre's job countless times after 2003.

To call him "Judas" is not fair.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 03:49 PM

Anyone who gets rid of the best manager in baseball = Judas. I love Torre.

Trippin4136

01-26-2009, 03:51 PM

Anyone who gets rid of the best manager in baseball = Judas. I love Torre.

Levine, Trost and the Steinbrenners weren't going to offer him more than 1 year.

It didn't matter what Cashman said or didn't say. it wasn't entirely up to him despite being VP of Operations. Two years in any compensation wasn't going to happen because Levine, Trost and the Steinbrenners said so.

Frankly, there were plenty of reasons to fire Torre prior to 2007.

As much as I love Torre and everything he helped the Yankees accomplish, baseball is a business and that was the approach the C-level folks took.

Was his exit badly bungled? You bet, but that was the course the brass took.

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 03:51 PM

.....Or maybe Cashman just didn't want Torre back?

It's entirely possible that Cashman felt it was time to move on and didn't want to make an argument for something he didn't believe in. Now if he told Joe that he did want him back, then I can't defend that. I can understand how that could happen...who wants to tell their friend that they're gone? It's dishonest, but understandable.

Trippin4136

01-26-2009, 03:54 PM

I'm more inclined to believe Cashman wanted to give Torre two years, but was superseded by the C-level execs and really had no choice to but to withdraw and be mum about the whole thing.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 04:46 PM

Andy confirmed!!! :)

Andy Pettitte and the Yankees agreed Monday to a $5.5 million, one-year contract that brings the left-hander back to New York.

Pettitte can make an additional $6.5 million on performance bonuses and bonuses based on time on the active roster. Late last year, New York had offered a deal that would have guaranteed Pettitte $10 million, down from the $16 million he earned last year.

SI.com's Jon Heyman first reported that the Yankees and Pettitte were close to a deal this morning.

He joins a starting rotation that already includes CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, Chien-Ming Wang and Joba Chamberlain. The deal raised the Yankees' projected opening-day payroll to $196.8 million for 17 players with agreements.

Pettitte pitched for the Yankees from 1995-2003, helping them win four World Series titles, then spent three seasons with his hometown Houston Astros. He returned to the Yankees in 2007 and was 14-14 with a 4.54 ERA last season, his highest ERA since 1999.

Pitching with a sore shoulder, he was 2-7 with a 6.23 ERA in his final 11 starts and missed his last turn of the season.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 04:48 PM

Quotes:

"There was never another team brought up, and in my mind I was going to be going back to the Yankees," Pettitte said. "There were certain points that I was worried about it a little bit. ... I'd be lying if I never said, 'Heck, is this ever going to get done?' I was very impatient, but I just trusted things would get done.

"I'm very excited about it," Pettitte went on. "I think we're going to have an unbelievable staff and hopefully we can all stay healthy."

HoldemHart

01-26-2009, 04:57 PM

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:00 PM

fatbathia - 20-9
andy - 18-11
burnett 15-12
wang 17-12
joba 11-4
hughes 8-4

Yankee record this year: 105-57

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:03 PM

Arod:

Batting - .330, 57 hrs, 149 rbi's, 120 runs, .600 slugging, .465 obp
Pitching - 10-0, 1.55 era

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 05:03 PM

What kind of freak run-support do you have Pettitte getting for him to reach 18 wins?

And our sixth starter is going to win 8 games without any of the first 5 missing time? :confused

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:09 PM

What kind of freak run-support do you have Pettitte getting for him to reach 18 wins?

And our sixth starter is going to win 8 games without any of the first 5 missing time? :confused

Obviously exaggerated

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 05:10 PM

Obviously exaggerated

I've read your opinions on Petittte...believe me, it wasn't obvious. :D

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:10 PM

I've read your opinions on Petittte...believe me, it wasn't obvious. :D

:lol

LazyLizard

01-26-2009, 05:11 PM

No way Pettitte wins 18. If he breaks 15, considering he'll be the 4th or 5th starter and won 14 last seasn, I'll be happy. He had a disastrous 2nd half last season.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:11 PM

Honest assessment on Pettite, if healthy only (30 starts or more)

16-10, 3.70 ERA

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 05:14 PM

ps Uconn up to 2 in the coaches poll. Another Duke/Uconn showdown?

pathetic

01-26-2009, 05:22 PM

Honest assessment on Pettite, if healthy only (30 starts or more)

16-10, 3.70 ERA

9-13 4.85era if they would actually let him go all season

LazyLizard

01-26-2009, 05:44 PM

Honest assessment on Pettite, if healthy only (30 starts or more)

16-10, 3.70 ERA

Pretty hopefully considering he completely broke down late last season.

15-11, 4.10 ERA

If he can top 15 wins and keep his ERA around 4.00, I'd be satisfied. I'm glad they brought him back so we don't have to start the season with whoever came out of the mixed bag of Hughes, Acevado, Coke, Kennedy, etc. but I really doubt Andy has much left in the tank.

mr. testaverde

01-26-2009, 06:57 PM

Anyone who gets rid of the best manager in baseball = Judas. I love Torre.

torre the best manager in baseball? thats laughable. dont get me wrong, i love torre, but he happened to manage an organization during some peak years. his record as a manager before he came to the yankees is proof that he's not the end-all-be-all of managers

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 07:06 PM

torre the best manager in baseball? thats laughable. dont get me wrong, i love torre, but he happened to manage an organization during some peak years. his record as a manager before he came to the yankees is proof that he's not the end-all-be-all of managers

Agreed. Managers are overrated anyway, IMO.

Plus, he batted A-Rod 8th. Eighth. Sorry Joe, that's retarded.

ctuna137

01-26-2009, 07:25 PM

good luck, the yankees just locked up 3rd place in the east
sabathia...blows up to 400 lbs
burnett.. his arm falls off and dr andrews crazy glues it on
joba... finally has a hearing for his dui arrest
andy ....becomes anchor of/to rotation
wang... wins 20

outfield ... account for 3 assists between them for the season
:lol

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 08:45 PM

torre the best manager in baseball? thats laughable. dont get me wrong, i love torre, but he happened to manage an organization during some peak years. his record as a manager before he came to the yankees is proof that he's not the end-all-be-all of managers

12/12 in the playoffs. 6/12 going to the world series. 4/12 world series championships. Sounds like pretty much the best manager in baseball to me.

Oh, and he took an average dodger team to the playoffs.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 08:45 PM

Still up for a bet that Andy wins at least 15 if healthy.

malarks26

01-26-2009, 08:54 PM

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 09:54 PM

Hey Tuna, hit me back with your address so I can mail you the money to buy a clue. Thanks.

:lol

big tuna

thestand

01-26-2009, 10:07 PM

12/12 in the playoffs. 6/12 going to the world series. 4/12 world series championships. Sounds like pretty much the best manager in baseball to me.All of these support the argument that he happened to be on the right team at the right time. Why didn't he do this before he got to the Yankees?

Oh, and he took an average dodger team to the playoffs.

Correction: Manny Ramirez playing out of his mind for half a season took them to the playoffs. Take one of the best players in arguably the best division in baseball and move him to a pretty average team in arguably the worst division in baseball, and tell me what's going to happen.

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 10:41 PM

All of these support the argument that he happened to be on the right team at the right time. Why didn't he do this before he got to the Yankees?

Correction: Manny Ramirez playing out of his mind for half a season took them to the playoffs. Take one of the best players in arguably the best division in baseball and move him to a pretty average team in arguably the worst division in baseball, and tell me what's going to happen.

I could make the same argument. Why didn't the Yankees do shit from the early 80's to 1995? B/C Joe wasn't there.

Agree w/ you on Manny

Lcsulla

01-26-2009, 10:41 PM

12/12 in the playoffs. 6/12 going to the world series. 4/12 world series championships. Sounds like pretty much the best manager in baseball to me.

Oh, and he took an average dodger team to the playoffs.

Not much success after 03. Thinking it may have been good teams and perhaps a lot of his 'genuis' could more correctly be spelled Z-i-m-m-e-r?

hbktonyb

01-26-2009, 11:23 PM

Nah, making it to the playoffs is so successful...proven this year when Girardi couldn't do it. I love Zimm butTorre's success can me measured with or without him.

ajgdrums7814

01-26-2009, 11:30 PM

I could make the same argument. Why didn't the Yankees do shit from the early 80's to 1995? B/C Joe wasn't there.

This is just wrong.

The Yankees had success in the 90s because Steinbrenner got suspended and Gene Michael and Buck Showalter were allowed to run the show. That's when the Yankees drafted and developed Jeter, Williams, Pettitte, Rivera, Posada and made trades/signings to bring in Cone, O'Neill, Boggs, Girardi, Raines, Key, Wetteland, Martinez, etc.

Torre had a big advantage in that he stepped into the Yankee job at the right time, with a ton of fresh talent coming up...and he lived through a period where the Yankees went out and bought whatever they needed/wanted.

Torre was a good manager. He derserves credit for the time he spent in New York. But he was certainly NOT the difference between the Yankees of the 80s and the Yankees of the late 90s.

ctuna137

01-27-2009, 07:55 AM

ha you guys are funny, good luck this year, looking forward to yankee stadium being empty in october.....again

hbktonyb

01-27-2009, 09:25 AM

This is just wrong.

The Yankees had success in the 90s because Steinbrenner got suspended and Gene Michael and Buck Showalter were allowed to run the show. That's when the Yankees drafted and developed Jeter, Williams, Pettitte, Rivera, Posada and made trades/signings to bring in Cone, O'Neill, Boggs, Girardi, Raines, Key, Wetteland, Martinez, etc.

Torre had a big advantage in that he stepped into the Yankee job at the right time, with a ton of fresh talent coming up...and he lived through a period where the Yankees went out and bought whatever they needed/wanted.

Torre was a good manager. He derserves credit for the time he spent in New York. But he was certainly NOT the difference between the Yankees of the 80s and the Yankees of the late 90s.

Disagree. Although for the most part it was the players, having a manger you like and want to play for, and respect plays a huge role. I'm not sure Girardi goes to 6 WS if he was the manager then.

ajgdrums7814

01-27-2009, 09:37 AM

Disagree. Although for the most part it was the players, having a manger you like and want to play for, and respect plays a huge role. I'm not sure Girardi goes to 6 WS if he was the manager then.

I think most managers who aren't complete morons (Dusty Baker, I'm looking at you) would have had plenty of success with that Yankee team. Joe was good for handling the media, but IMO managers don't do a whole lot to affect the on-field performance.

I'm not saying he wasn't a good manager, he was obviously, but you're severely overstating his impact IMO.

scrock25

01-27-2009, 10:26 AM

ha you guys are funny, good luck this year, looking forward to yankee stadium being empty in october.....again

ha yah

hbktonyb

01-27-2009, 10:30 AM

I think most managers who aren't complete morons (Dusty Baker, I'm looking at you) would have had plenty of success with that Yankee team. Joe was good for handling the media, but IMO managers don't do a whole lot to affect the on-field performance.

I'm not saying he wasn't a good manager, he was obviously, but you're severely overstating his impact IMO.

Maybe.

I'm actually starting to like him less after hearing how he treated our boy Arod.

www.nydailynews.com (http://www.nydailynews.com)

Ascf33

01-27-2009, 11:02 AM

ha you guys are funny, good luck this year, looking forward to yankee stadium being empty in october.....again

uglynakedguy :lol

Trippin4136

01-27-2009, 11:30 AM

uglynakedguy :lol

:lol any guy who says anything like this is automatically UNG to you

Anyways, I think UNG said he was from Atlanta or somewhere else in the South.

mr. testaverde

01-27-2009, 11:35 AM

All of these support the argument that he happened to be on the right team at the right time. Why didn't he do this before he got to the Yankees?

not to mention, i believe torre went on record once saying that the '98 team was like a machine, and that he didnt really need to do much to get them to win, they just won, a lot.

Ascf33

01-27-2009, 11:46 AM

:lol any guy who says anything like this is automatically UNG to you

Anyways, I think UNG said he was from Atlanta or somewhere else in the South.

hahaha i know. he sounds just like him tho.

chr35919

01-27-2009, 12:04 PM

yankees taking over the world?
http://rawcut.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/george-steinbrenner01.jpg?w=360&h=378

:eek

scrock25

01-27-2009, 12:05 PM

yankees taking over the world?
http://rawcut.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/george-steinbrenner01.jpg?w=360&h=378

:eek

:lol :lol :lol

chr35919

01-27-2009, 12:07 PM

:lol :lol :loli mean, with the mustache doesn't he kinda resemble hitler? the eyes or mouth or something??:lol

hbktonyb

01-27-2009, 12:10 PM

yankees taking over the world?
http://rawcut.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/george-steinbrenner01.jpg?w=360&h=378

:eek

:lol:lol

I'd gladly take him as my ruler.

jmudmbphan

01-27-2009, 01:39 PM

oh shit!!! that's my blog! haha i havent updated that in a month or so...funny you found that.

malarks26

01-29-2009, 09:30 PM

Torre = an asshole

hbktonyb

01-29-2009, 10:02 PM

Torre is on Larry King tomorrow. I hate Larry that old fuck but hopefully he asks the right questions.

mattyszow

01-29-2009, 10:08 PM

Torre = an asshole

i wouldnt go that far. the book itself isnt even out yet, just a couple exerpts to stir a shit storm so it sells. besides, it was written mostly by tom verducci (who i love as a writer), and torre just pitched in. i think this is being blown wayyy out of proportion so it can sell huge. im excited to read it.

anyway, does anyone have MLB network? harold reynolds has a real nice interview on hot stove with derek tonight, i think it's on again a few more times tonight. :thumbsup

crashintome202

01-30-2009, 04:21 PM

http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20090127224339990

ranks the GMs. dont like their system especially if it ends up saying jim bowden is an average GM.

over theo, and cash and GM's who've actually done positive things for their teams lol

thestand

01-30-2009, 06:08 PM

Bruney signed for 2009, at 1.25m. He wanted 1.55, Yanks offered 1.1. So this means no arbitration for the Yankees this year. Always good.

hbktonyb

01-30-2009, 06:59 PM

Just watched the Jeter interview. He is like a robot. He doesn't give you anything at all.

hbktonyb

01-31-2009, 10:08 AM

Also caught Torre on Larry King yesterday. Larry King is the worst interviewer of all time. He would ask a question, Torre would beat around the bush, then Larry would go to the next question. I can't wait until Torre is on Mad Dog's Sirius show, and Francesa's show on Tuesday.

MistreatedLewis

01-31-2009, 10:40 AM

You know, I almost completely forgot that Randy Johnson was a Yankee, it's been so oevrshadowed by Clemens's last 1/2 season with them.

He actually pitched pretty damn well for them in 2005, Randy did.

hbktonyb

01-31-2009, 10:46 AM

He didn't do much in the playoffs. Overall a waste of money.

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 09:31 AM

At this point I would offer Manny 2 years, $50 M.

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 09:34 AM

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 09:35 AM

At this point I would offer Manny 2 years, $50 M.

And do what? Sit Matsui? Sit Nady and Swisher both?

Unless you have a means to trade at least Matsui and probably someone else (Nady/Swisher) as well, it doesn't make sense.

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 09:59 AM

And do what? Sit Matsui? Sit Nady and Swisher both?

Unless you have a means to trade at least Matsui and probably someone else (Nady/Swisher) as well, it doesn't make sense.

Beef up our bench. Looks like the only takers out there are the Giants and Dodgers, and they are both only offering 1 year deals.

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 10:00 AM

Beef up our bench. Looks like the only takers out there are the Giants and Dodgers, and they are both only offering 1 year deals.

So you want both $13 million dollar Matsui and $6 million dollar Swisher on the bench?

Crush086

02-03-2009, 10:20 AM

You know how the Yankees love their DH's....

Joking, of course.

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 11:07 AM

So you want both $13 million dollar Matsui and $6 million dollar Swisher on the bench?

Yes. Neither is an everyday player, unless japsui dh's everyday and you can deal with swisher's low avg. I know they are not going to sign Manny, but if they had an extra $25 mill lying around, ideally I would trade japsui and sign Manny.

ProudestAnt

02-03-2009, 11:21 AM

Yes. Neither is an everyday player, unless japsui dh's everyday and you can deal with swisher's low avg. I know they are not going to sign Manny, but if they had an extra $25 mill lying around, ideally I would trade japsui and sign Manny.
In what world are you going to find a suiter for Matsui and that huge contract?

Crush086

02-03-2009, 11:27 AM

In what world are you going to find a suiter for Matsui and that huge contract?
The Land of Oz, where the Scarecrow would be your owner.

ProudestAnt

02-03-2009, 11:30 AM

The Land of Oz, where the Scarecrow would be your owner.
What has happened this offseason that has given anyone the idea that the Sox brass is brainless?

MistreatedLewis

02-03-2009, 11:31 AM

So you want both $13 million dollar Matsui and $6 million dollar Swisher on the bench?

Sunk costs. The most important thing is to field the best team you can within your budget, not play people you gave stupid contracts to.

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 11:38 AM

Sunk costs. The most important thing is to field the best team you can within your budget, not play people you gave stupid contracts to.

Except both of those guys are still productive players. It's not an Andruw Jones scenario. Matsui can still hit, the only question with him is health. Swisher still has a lot of potential and a lot of people expect him to rebound from his abysmal 2008. And contrary to popular belief, the Yankees do have a budget. Taking on another $25 million dollars isn't going to happen unless they cut significant payroll.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love Manny. It's just never going to happen when the Yankees have a plethora of corner outfield/DH types already on their roster in Damon, Matsui, Nady and Swisher.

MistreatedLewis

02-03-2009, 11:53 AM

Except both of those guys are still productive players. It's not an Andruw Jones scenario. Matsui can still hit, the only question with him is health. Swisher still has a lot of potential and a lot of people expect him to rebound from his abysmal 2008. And contrary to popular belief, the Yankees do have a budget. Taking on another $25 million dollars isn't going to happen unless they cut significant payroll.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love Manny. It's just never going to happen when the Yankees have a plethora of corner outfield/DH types already on their roster in Damon, Matsui, Nady and Swisher.

It doesn't matter if they are productive. If you get someone in your budget who is significantly more productive, you get that person.

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 11:57 AM

It doesn't matter if they are productive. If you get someone in your budget who is significantly more productive, you get that person.

Again, I don't think Manny fits in their budget. And I don't think they are weak enough offensively that they need to increase budget to acquire him. But if they could find someone to take Matsui off their hands, sure. I'd love for them to get Manny.

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 11:58 AM

It doesn't matter if they are productive. If you get someone in your budget who is significantly more productive, you get that person.

:thumbsup

At least someone agrees with my opinions once in a while

crashintome202

02-03-2009, 12:00 PM

MistreatedLewis

02-03-2009, 12:02 PM

Again, I don't think Manny fits in their budget. And I don't think they are weak enough offensively that they need to increase budget to acquire him. But if they could find someone to take Matsui off their hands, sure. I'd love for them to get Manny.

I agree with you on the budget- I don't think they want to spend another 25m +

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 12:12 PM

no one is going to take matsui unless we pay for just about all of his contract. take on a 35 year old matsui making 13 million with balky knees or give abreu/dunn less on a 1 year deal and be more productive?

Unless the Yankees pick up half of that contract, which they wouldn't be willing to do. That would make Manny deal more than what Arod is making per yr

Crush086

02-03-2009, 01:38 PM

What has happened this offseason that has given anyone the idea that the Sox brass is brainless?
I must have misread your post or something.

You said who would take Matsui's contract etc. etc.

The joke was someone without a brain, hence the scarecrow wizard of oz reference.

Either that or you're looking for an argument or something and assuming that "you're owner" meant the Red Sox.

jmudmbphan

02-03-2009, 01:47 PM

An inside source says the Yankees are in talks with Manny

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 02:00 PM

An inside source says the Yankees are in talks with Manny

I don't see this anywhere. Or were you joking?

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 02:31 PM

I think I'm the inside source

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 03:27 PM

Torre coming up on the FAN at 4:00 pm

ajgdrums7814

02-03-2009, 03:54 PM

Torre coming up on the FAN at 4:00 pm

Thanks for reminding me. Looking forward to that.

Lcsulla

02-03-2009, 03:59 PM

Fuck Torre! Asshole.

jmudmbphan

02-03-2009, 04:04 PM

I don't see this anywhere. Or were you joking?

Randy Levine's personal assistants' boyfriend.

hbktonyb

02-03-2009, 08:06 PM

Francesa did a great job w/ that interview, taking quotes from the book. But it was the same old answers...the one thing that was telling is the way Torre responded to some questions. It seems like he regrets the Arod stuff that was in the book....He had no idea what Single White Female was. But he stood up and said he read the book 6 times so he knew what was in it. He answered "I'm not sure" to the question "Were you and Cashman on the same page". That pretty much means "no". It sounds like his Yankee legacy is important to him, but he also knows that it is out of his hands (retiring his number, monument park).

I for one hope the Yankees do not decide to give number 6 to some utility infielder...That number should be retired.

crashintome202

02-03-2009, 11:11 PM

Randy Levine's personal assistants' boyfriend.
hmmm these things can take a while to leak but i thought the yankees couldn't sign anymore type A FAs?

thestand

02-04-2009, 03:29 AM

hmmm these things can take a while to leak but i thought the yankees couldn't sign anymore type A FAs?

The limit was lifted this year, because of so many being on the market.

Also, if you believe the fine folks at Impacto Deportivo, we're all going to wake up tomorrow to a 3 year, 75 million dollar contract to Manny. :lol I for a second thought it was the same article that came out much earlier this year, but it turns out it's a new article, posted after the Dodger's deal was declined.

Lcsulla

02-04-2009, 11:11 AM

I for one hope the Yankees do not decide to give number 6 to some utility infielder...That number should be retired.

Yes, for Joe. Joe Gordon that is, the Yanks newest Hall of Famer. Shit, I'd rather see it retired for Roy White than Benedict Arnold - sorry Joe Torre - at this point.

Lcsulla

02-04-2009, 11:22 AM

An inside source says the Yankees are in talks with Manny

---------

We chose to put our money into Mark Teixeira "Everybody expects us to get in on Manny, but that's not going to happen....When you add all our payroll up to where we're at, we're tapped.

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 12:42 PM

seems yanks may still talking with Hudson...

here is a link:
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/2009/02/03/orlando-hudson-is-still-a-possibility-for-the-new-york-yankees/

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 12:49 PM

Also: from mlbtraderumors.com

According to a press release, the Brewers acquired pitcher Chase Wright from the Yankees for outfielder/catcher Eric Fryer.

Wright, who turns 26 in a few days, spent most of 2008 with the Yankees' Double A and Triple A clubs. He posted strong ERAs and strong groundball rates, but low strikeout rates as well. In their 2007 Handbook, Baseball America said Wright had "solid stuff" and "profiles best at the back of a rotation." He was designated for assignment when Andy Pettitte was signed.

Fryer, 23, hit .335/.407/.506 in 104 games at Low A.

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 12:50 PM

^^ seems like a decent trade...
got a young outfielder who did a pretty solid job in Low A ball...

edit: tho i guess being 23 and in Low A isn't all 'that' good...

scrock25

02-04-2009, 01:55 PM

Lcsulla

02-04-2009, 01:58 PM

Moose to address what Joe said about him in the book on WFAN in about 2 minutes.

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 02:13 PM

Isn't that the same kid who gave up back to back to back to back hr's in that one sunday night espn game a couple years ago?

yup against the BoSox...

scrock25

02-04-2009, 02:15 PM

yup against the BoSox...

Word....they had high hopes for this kid.

crashintome202

02-04-2009, 03:14 PM

^^ seems like a decent trade...
got a young outfielder who did a pretty solid job in Low A ball...

edit: tho i guess being 23 and in Low A isn't all 'that' good...
yeah those numbers aren't that great cause hes 23 in low A. yet since chase was DFA, ill take anything in a trade rather than just letting him walk.

crashintome202

02-04-2009, 03:17 PM

seems yanks may still talking with Hudson...

here is a link:
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/2009/02/03/orlando-hudson-is-still-a-possibility-for-the-new-york-yankees/
seems theyve kept in touch for a few weeks now. cano in CF would be a nightmare. i'd rather just spin him and a minor leaguer for kemp and have him play CF.
always liked hudson- GG defense, good average, walks, ok power.

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 03:33 PM

yeah those numbers aren't that great cause hes 23 in low A. yet since chase was DFA, ill take anything in a trade rather than just letting him walk.

yeah i here ya on that. Tho he did play college ball so maybe he will move up quicker then others...

here is a little tidbit on him:

"Eric Fryer, c, Brewers. The Brewers drafted Fryer, 22, as a catcher out of Ohio State in the 10th round of last year's draft, but he initially spent most of his time this year patrolling left field after being assigned to low Class A West Virginia in early May. He was moved back behind the plate in mid-July, but his bat has been sizzling all year. His .344/.414/.527 line has him leading the South Atlantic League in average and on-base percentage and puts him third in slugging. He put together a streak of six consecutive two-hit games from August 13-18, and hit .360/.500/.640 (9-for-25) this week."

crashintome202

02-04-2009, 03:57 PM

haha i just realized we probably got a better prospect in return for chase wright than what the cubs will get for rich hill.

milo420dmb

02-04-2009, 04:20 PM

^i was thinking the same thing a bit ago..

Cubs get 'a player to be determined', lol

thestand

02-04-2009, 04:26 PM

9 days. :bounce :multi :bounce

Trippin4136

02-04-2009, 05:20 PM

If the Yankees swapped Cano for Kemp [very unlikely at this point], then I would be all for getting Hudson.

But straight up, a 30-year-old second baseman who will command a bigger contract than Cano's current deal? No thanks.

As much as Cano was in the dog house last year, he still has tremendous upside.

hbktonyb

02-04-2009, 05:31 PM

Chris Russo is an excellent interviewer. He just had Torre on, and asked him exactly the right questions. No new information came out, but if you guys don't listen to the dog, I'd highly recommend him.

He also made a simple point that I completely agree with. Torre was 12/12. Girardi is 0/1. There is no way to say Girardi did a good job last year, and you can't say that Torre wouldn't have brought them to the playoffs b/c we simply do not know. Also, Torre was essentially fired b/c he couldn't pass the 1st round of the playoffs in 3 years. Why wasn't Girardi fired for not even getting into the playoffs (obviously Chris is a big Torre supporter, even though he is a Yankee hater).

Trippin4136

02-04-2009, 05:49 PM

Torre wasn't fired.

His contract was up and they low-balled him.

Russo is just washing Torre's balls.

There was plenty of ground to fire Torre before 2007 and firing Girardi after one season is illogical. Anyone with any baseball sense would realize this, especially given the disaster that was the starting rotation last year.

ajgdrums7814

02-04-2009, 05:54 PM

Baseball managers may be the most overrated group of people on the planet. The only time they really have a big effect on the team is when they are so terrible that they literally kill their team's performance, ala Dusty Baker.

The Yankees didn't win 4 WS because of Joe Torre. He was a good manager and he was an ace at handling the media, but he was in the right place at the right time as far as winning went.

And he made some moves that were just mind-bogglingly dumb.

thestand

02-05-2009, 03:48 PM

:lol We offered a minor-league contract to Andruw Jones.

Thankfully, he turned it down.

hbktonyb

02-05-2009, 10:28 PM

Yankee fans, who are your top 5 Yankees of all time, how many years have you been a fan, and any honorable mentions?

Me - Yankee fan since the 80's (born in 79)

5. Joe Torre - Just as much a part of the Yankees as the players, and I truly believe he played a major role in our success over the years (other than the '98 team. I could have coached that team and won 125 games!)
4. Andy - My favorite pitcher of the dynasty...Almost always came through in a big pitching spot
3. Bern baby Bern - Couldn't ask for a classier human being. And in the playoffs, he was $$$$
2. Arod - Best player I've ever seen, currently my favorite athlete in all sports (other than Tiger)
1. Don Mattingly - My childhood hero. I'll never forget the day there was a rain delay at the stadium...I was a young kid, and at that time when there was rain delays all the fans could sit really close to the field. So we got seats right behind the Yankee dugout. Seeing Donny come out of the dugout, and hearing my dad ask him to pose for a picture on the on deck circle, and him actually doing it was such a great moment!

Honorable mention: Mariano (he is God), Moose (love how brutally honest he is), Leyritz (pre killing somebody accidentally), David Cone (was at his perfect game), Paul Oneill (instensity), and I guess Jeter (I love how he plays the game, but hate how he represents the Captain-"hood" of the Yankees)

Trippin4136

02-05-2009, 11:32 PM

Born in 1983, fan since my first game in 1991.

1. Jeter
2. Rivera
3. Mantle
4. O'Neill
5. Reggie/Yogi

Honorable Mentions: Pat Kelly, Mel Hall, Mariano Duncan, Mike Stanley, Scott Sanderson

milo420dmb

02-06-2009, 09:07 AM

Born in Jan. 1984, fan since 1984 (my dad brought me to a game in June of '84, obv. I don't remember it but that was were it all started)

1) Donny Baseball
2) Mickey Mantle
3) Derek Jeter
4) Paul O'Neill
5) Mariano Rivera

Honorable Mentions: Yogi, Posada, Loius Sojo, Moose, Joe Girardi, David Cone, Bernie Williams, Willie Randolph

hbktonyb

02-06-2009, 09:22 AM

I was also a huge Brosius fan

milo420dmb

02-06-2009, 09:31 AM

I was also a huge Brosius fan

oohh, good call... me too! I knew I was forgetting someone int he Honorable mentions

Also, there will also be a little spot in my heart for Aaron Boone (I will never forget that HR he hit)

Ascf33

02-06-2009, 10:09 AM

Born: Sept. 1984
Fan Since: 1984 - Yankees Blanket, Yankees PJs (etc.)
First Game: 1987 or 88 (Roger Clemens struck out 15 against the Yankees... i hated the Red Sox ever since.

Top 5:
1. Don Mattingly
2. Paul O'Neill
3. Jorge Posada
4. Derek Jeter
5. Thurman Munson

Honorable Mentions: Álvaro Espinoza, Pat Kelly, David Cone, Chad Curtis, Jimmy Key, Tino Martinez

jmudmbphan

02-06-2009, 10:44 AM

Born: March 84
Fan Since: I really dont know, my entire family are fans, so probably early.

Top 5:

1. Mariano
2. Jeter
3. Bernie
4. The Babe
5. Torre

Trippin4136

02-06-2009, 10:56 AM

Pretty awesome pictures.

This one is being saved

http://www.visitingdc.com/images/yankee-stadium-picture.jpg

And a wintry perspective

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fsh7GWfK4f0/SX_Ly5oPjWI/AAAAAAAAEso/3opwcziQCUE/s1600-h/3226301943_9747f2dfa0_o.jpg

One thing I notice, look at how much more foul territory there is....:thumbsdow

jmudmbphan

02-06-2009, 11:09 AM

I don't like the new stadium to be honest....I like the old Yankee stadium and the way it is built UP...not out.....

spoot388

02-06-2009, 11:15 AM

I don't like the new stadium to be honest....I like the old Yankee stadium and the way it is built UP...not out.....

Wait until you actually get to a game before deciding whether you like it or not. You don't know what its really like there.

As for my list....

Fan since early-mid 90's (born in 88)

1- Bernie
2- Mariano
3- Tino
4- Jeter
5- Pettitte

Trippin4136

02-06-2009, 11:20 AM

I don't like the new stadium to be honest....I like the old Yankee stadium and the way it is built UP...not out.....

I already very much dislike how much further away from the field fans are, but that is a very important thing IMO considering how close fans were in "old" park. (that still feels weird to say).

I leave the rest for my first game there.

milo420dmb

02-06-2009, 11:27 AM

So, whats the deal with monument park?

are they moving it to the new stadium?

Edit: great pics, thanks for posting them

Trippin4136

02-06-2009, 11:33 AM

milo420dmb

02-06-2009, 01:14 PM

Pulled this off of mlbtraderumors.com

"Derek Jeter's Next Contract
By Tim Dierkes [February 6 at 8:58am CST]

Derek Jeter is signed through 2010, but Joel Sherman of the New York Post says "Yankee officials already talk privately about dreading" the expiration of his contract. He lists all kinds of complications: Jeter's position, his salary, his declining offense, and his drive toward 3,000 hits. River Ave. Blues, IATMS, and others took on the issue recently as well.

We can rule out the infield corners for Jeter, with Mark Teixeira signed through 2016 and Alex Rodriguez through 2017. Assuming you're not comfortable with a 36 year-old Jeter manning shortstop, the options would be second base or the outfield. Robinson Cano's contract runs through 2011 with club options for '12 and '13. The Yankees have two full seasons to determine Cano's future in the organization. If he stays, can he play a better center field than Jeter, opening up second base? Is the experiment even worth it? Another inefficient option would be to try Jeter in an outfield corner.

If Jeter wasn't an icon, the best baseball decision would be to let him go after his contract expires. Since he is, we'll be debating this for the next two years. By the way, Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins can both be free-agent eligible after the 2011 season, if their teams exercise their 2010 options."

scrock25

02-06-2009, 01:17 PM

ajgdrums7814

02-06-2009, 01:44 PM

Jeter should have been moved off of SS a long time ago. Particularly when they got A-Rod.

He better be willing to move after 2010. Start training him to play CF.

Trippin4136

02-06-2009, 02:39 PM

ajgdrums7814

02-06-2009, 03:34 PM

I don't understand this belief that "ho hum, just move him to CF"

If people are so concerned about his range at shortstop, I laugh at the notion that a transition to CF is some how an easy fix.

Also, I'm willing to give him through 2009 to see if his offensive skills have really diminished as much as these media folks like to believe.

I'm convinced he was playing with a hand injury for most of last season which sapped a lot of from his swing.

Nobody knows if CF is going to work for Jeter. But they don't have many other options if it doesn't. Unless they trade Cano and put Jeter on 2B, there really is no other spot for him.

Jeter has always been great at catching pop-ups and his range would probably be better in CF than it is on SS. He's got speed to make up for any bad reads he might have. Speed doesn't really help make up for bad reads on SS, since the ball arrives so quickly. He also has a strong enough arm to be an adequate CF. Again, we won't know for sure until we see it.

crashintome202

02-06-2009, 03:48 PM

^^^

Yes Monument Park will be moved and placed under the pathetically absurd restaurant in centerfield and pretty much of site from people in the seats. That's another grievance of mine.

And another - that restaurant completely cuts off fans' lines of site from the upper corners of the bleachers. Those are dead zones. I would never pay to sit there.
couldnt agree more. that restaurant is easily the worst thing ive seen/heard about the new stadium. i wish they just made an official one attached on or something like that, not bulging out of centerfield.

crashintome202

02-06-2009, 03:51 PM

Nobody knows if CF is going to work for Jeter. But they don't have many other options if it doesn't. Unless they trade Cano and put Jeter on 2B, there really is no other spot for him.

Jeter has always been great at catching pop-ups and his range would probably be better in CF than it is on SS. He's got speed to make up for any bad reads he might have. Speed doesn't really help make up for bad reads on SS, since the ball arrives so quickly. He also has a strong enough arm to be an adequate CF. Again, we won't know for sure until we see it.
id rather move cano to LF/RF and put Jeter at 2nd than have Jeter play CF.

ajgdrums7814

02-06-2009, 04:16 PM

id rather move cano to LF/RF and put Jeter at 2nd than have Jeter play CF.

Cano is really going to have to improve his offensive numbers a lot to be a plus corner-outfielder.

hbktonyb

02-06-2009, 04:52 PM

id rather move cano to LF/RF and put Jeter at 2nd than have Jeter play CF.

I agree with this option. The only thing we know for sure is that Jeter will be offered at least $25m per year, and he is not going anywhere (and will probably be signed until the end of Arod's contract).

hbktonyb

02-06-2009, 04:53 PM

Cano is really going to have to improve his offensive numbers a lot to be a plus corner-outfielder.

This is true...then again, Damon and Nady won't exactly light it up this year.

crashintome202

02-06-2009, 06:09 PM

Cano is really going to have to improve his offensive numbers a lot to be a plus corner-outfielder.
yeah his numbers wouldnt be great but he'd be pretty cheap for his production assuming he bounces back. i dont see any other options unless you trade cano

jmudmbphan

02-06-2009, 09:53 PM

Linecum for cano and Kennedy

crashintome202

02-07-2009, 12:23 AM

Linecum for cano and Kennedy
then flip melky for pujols

thestand

02-07-2009, 12:57 AM

Linecum for cano and Kennedy

Are you just blurting out random things?

hbktonyb

02-07-2009, 10:35 AM

You gotta be shitting me...

www.si.com

Ughh

MistreatedLewis

02-07-2009, 10:36 AM

You gotta be shitting me...

www.si.com

Ughh

Not too shocking.

hbktonyb

02-07-2009, 10:39 AM

Was there anyone NOT on steroids at that time? I figured he was at some point, I just wish it didn't come out...I wanted his pursuit untainted.

hearmorphish

02-07-2009, 10:42 AM

Not too shocking.
yeah, whats the big deal?

hbktonyb

02-07-2009, 10:47 AM

Whats really gonna hurt is when they find urine samples from Tiger and Lance...

crashintome202

02-07-2009, 10:47 AM

Was there anyone NOT on steroids at that time? I figured he was at some point, I just wish it didn't come out...I wanted his pursuit untainted.
im surprised it took this long to come out. this was a rumor for a while that he was on steroids particularity while in texas

crashintome202

02-07-2009, 10:48 AM

Whats really gonna hurt is when they find urine samples from Tiger and Lance...
i doubt those would ever surface if they happened. golf would be ruined if tiger tested positive, they'd sacrifice millions to keep it under wraps

hbktonyb

02-07-2009, 10:50 AM

This is going to be a huge deal and really affect his career. Sucks

jmudmbphan

02-07-2009, 10:57 AM

then flip melky for pujols

done.

hearmorphish

02-07-2009, 11:30 AM

Whats really gonna hurt is when they find urine samples from Tiger and Lance...
isn't it out about Lance already?

chr35919

02-07-2009, 11:33 AM

steroid distraction spring, ftw.

jackisback24

02-07-2009, 02:03 PM

they're not cheering Je - ter, they're cheering "Chea - ter. Chea - ter.
Chea - ter."

ajgdrums7814

02-07-2009, 02:27 PM

Not too shocking.

Agreed. Not a big deal to me at all.

Unfortunately a lot of people will try to make it a big deal.

hbktonyb

02-07-2009, 04:04 PM

Not a big deal to me either, but unfortunately this is going to be a HUGE issue to the point where arod will mentally be affected forever.

ajgdrums7814

02-08-2009, 08:54 AM

Now I just hope they release positive tests for Pujols, Griffey, Schilling, Santana, Jeter, Ortiz, Manny, Bagwell, Ripken, Pedro, Randy and Piazza.

hbktonyb

02-08-2009, 12:16 PM

^I hope so too. Its becoming more and more obvious that if you were a big name player before 2003, you probably at least tried one cycle. All these guys were just trying to better themselves, even though guys like Arod do not need it.

jmudmbphan

02-08-2009, 01:30 PM

I just hope this doesn't fuck with Arod all season...

ajgdrums7814

02-08-2009, 01:44 PM

I just hope this doesn't fuck with Arod all season...

I hope he finally tells everyone to go fuck themselves and just plays.

MistreatedLewis

02-08-2009, 03:51 PM

Now I just hope they release positive tests for Pujols, Griffey, Schilling, Santana, Jeter, Ortiz, Manny, Bagwell, Ripken, Pedro, Randy and Piazza.

If there are + test results for these players, I sure hope they do too. :thumbsup

Trippin4136

02-08-2009, 08:51 PM

“His legacy, now, is gone,” one Yankees official said of Rodriguez, speaking on condition of anonymity because the organization had no public comment. “He’ll just play it out. Now he’s a worker. Do your job, collect your paycheck and when you’re finished playing, go away. That’s what it is.”

Several other front-office officials declined to comment Saturday, but the Yankees were clearly blindsided. Just like that, the questions about Joe Torre’s book do not seem so distracting anymore.

“If he did it, he’s got to flat-out admit it, like Giambi,” the Yankees official said. “Just come out and say, ‘I did it. I’m sorry. I lied.’”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/sports/baseball/08kepner.html?_r=2&ref=baseball

hbktonyb

02-08-2009, 10:25 PM

Sounds like Hank

Trippin4136

02-08-2009, 10:38 PM

I don't think Hank would hide behind the moniker of "anonymous source"

But it wouldn't surprise me if it was Lonn Trost or Mark Newman

MistreatedLewis

02-09-2009, 02:49 PM

So Yankees fans: 10 year 300 Mil contract a bad idea, or would you still do it over again?

thestand

02-09-2009, 02:52 PM

MistreatedLewis

02-09-2009, 02:54 PM

He was clean in 2007, and still put up those numbers. He's still the best player on the team. It's ridiculous to think otherwise, IMO. Of course the contract is still worth it. This is going to be a headache for him, but if what Gammons said is true, that more names from the 104 players list is coming out this week, it might not be as bad as it looks right now.

Well it's definitely possible that he was on HGH or other steroids (with masking agents) in 2007...

That said, your point is that if he continues to put up those numbers, the contract is worth it. I would tend to agree with you.

hbktonyb

02-09-2009, 02:56 PM

So Yankees fans: 10 year 300 Mil contract a bad idea, or would you still do it over again?

Yes. Steroids or no steroids, he's still the best.

I would probably take out the home run incentives though :lol

thestand

02-09-2009, 03:04 PM

I honestly think the guy is going to have a career defining year this year. I think he's going to play loose and hard. He really has something to prove this year, and we all know how much of the game is in Alex's head. He can either put up amazing numbers or be mediocre. But either way, this year is probably going to be pretty telling.

I'm excited.

MistreatedLewis

02-09-2009, 03:10 PM

thestand

02-09-2009, 04:08 PM

The shipping would be a bitch, what with Jason being in Oakland and all.

Unless there's a different Jason I'm blanking on.

MistreatedLewis

02-09-2009, 04:10 PM

The shipping would be a bitch, what with Jason being in Oakland and all.

Unless there's a different Jason I'm blanking on.

bwahaha i forgot that he's gone.

That's good I guess.

thestand

02-09-2009, 11:47 PM

You know how I know I'm ready for baseball? FSNNW is replaying Ichiro's game where he broke the single season hit record (meaning Mariners v. Rangers), and I'm watching this shit like it's a Game 7. :lol

hbktonyb

02-10-2009, 07:40 AM

I have a feeling Arod is going to have a huge year. I would take right now:

Over .305
Over 42 hrs
Over 110 RBIs

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 08:56 AM

A-Rod is going to get the shit booed out of him opening day.

hbktonyb

02-10-2009, 10:20 AM

A-Rod is going to get the shit booed out of him opening day.

Not at the stadium. But of course he will, he will be at baltimore...then at KC, then at Tampa Bay. They aren't home until the 16th.

IF Arod opens up with a great first 9 games, fans will cheer him.

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 10:25 AM

Not at the stadium. But of course he will, he will be at baltimore...then at KC, then at Tampa Bay. They aren't home until the 16th.

IF Arod opens up with a great first 9 games, fans will cheer him.

Not gonna happen. A-Rod will be booed at home. Once he starts hitting it will end... but he will be booed the first home series.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:37 AM

Yankee fans boo A-Rod anyway. They're idiots. What's the difference?

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:39 AM

In good news, Pecota says Mets win the division this year. :)

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 10:42 AM

Yankee fans boo A-Rod anyway. They're idiots. What's the difference?

I'd say Yankees fans are among the most intelligent and appreciative fans in the game. I'd also say that they are the first to boo the shit out of you when you do something stupid like call the Yankees your daddy, or say you should close over Mariano Rivera, or shoot poison into your ass.

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 10:43 AM

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Jesus, he never said he SHOULD close over Mo. He said he WANTED to close over Mo...

:lol :lol :lol

Ryan you took the bait. I'm sorry.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:46 AM

I'd say Yankees fans are among the most intelligent and appreciative fans in the game. I'd also say that they are the first to boo the shit out of you when you do something stupid like call the Yankees your daddy, or say you should close over Mariano Rivera, or shoot poison into your ass.

I'd say that a lot of Yankee fans are belligerent pricks who think that Scott Brosius is a better player than Alex Rodriguez or that Derek Jeter 'knows how to win.' These are the classless bunch that booed Mariano Rivera 2 games into the 2005 season.

Of course there are a ton of great Yankee fans too.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:47 AM

I'd say that a lot of Yankee fans are belligerent pricks who think that Scott Brosius is a better player than Alex Rodriguez or that Derek Jeter 'knows how to win.' These are the classless bunch that booed Mariano Rivera 2 games into the 2005 season.

Of course there are a ton of great Yankee fans too.

You have to admit tha Brosius did more than A-Rod (so far) to bring the Yanks a championship, though.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:48 AM

You have to admit tha Brosius did more than A-Rod (so far) to bring the Yanks a championship, though.

Complete misconception.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:50 AM

Complete misconception.

I've read your arguments on that and I disagree with you.

Whatever we say about Scott's contribution, we do know that so far A-Rod has contributed 0 to a Yankee championship.

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 10:50 AM

I'd say that a lot of Yankee fans are belligerent pricks who think that Scott Brosius is a better player than Alex Rodriguez or that Derek Jeter 'knows how to win.' These are the classless bunch that booed Mariano Rivera 2 games into the 2005 season.

Of course there are a ton of great Yankee fans too.

Yankees fans would prefer a .266 hitter and a championship over a .314/54/156 MVP season and no championship... yes.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:50 AM

Yankees fans would prefer a .270 hitter and a championship over a .314/54/156 MVP season and no championship... yes.

As a Mets fan, so would I :thumbsup

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:51 AM

I've read your arguments on that and I disagree with you.

Whatever we say about Scott's contribution, we do know that so far A-Rod has contributed 0 to a Yankee championship.

The problem is that you're ignoring the 24 other players on the team. It's not because of A-Rod that the team hasn't won. Just like it wasn't because of Brosius that those teams did win.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Yankees fans would prefer a .266 hitter and a championship over a .314/54/156 MVP season and no championship... yes.

Really what you're saying is...

I'd take Brosius and the 1998 Yankees over A-Rod and the 2008 Yankees.

Well, obviously. You're equating team performance with the individuals. It doesn't work like that. Put Brosius on the 2008 Yankees and the team would have finished in 4 place. Put A-Rod on the 1998 Yankees and the team would have won a lot more than 114 games on route to a World Championship.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:54 AM

The problem is that you're ignoring the 24 other players on the team. It's not because of A-Rod that the team hasn't won. Just like it wasn't because of Brosius that those teams did win.

Well that's where I disagree with you.
A-Rod may not have been the reason the Yankees haven't won, but Brosius is at least a small part of the reason the Yankees did. Even if it was more luck than talent. My mom's old adage, "It's better to be lucky than good." Unfortunately, you can't take an injectable luck enhancer.

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 10:54 AM

Really what you're saying is...

I'd take Brosius and the 1998 Yankees over A-Rod and the 2008 Yankees.

Well, obviously. You're equating team performance with the individuals. It doesn't work like that.

But your reading into it. Does anyone actually believe Brosius is a better baseball player then ARod? No, of course not.

We just won 3 championships with him, and 0 with ARod.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:54 AM

Well that's where I disagree with you.
A-Rod may not have been the reason the Yankees haven't won, but Brosius is at least a small part of the reason the Yankees did. Even if it was more luck than talent. My mom's old adage, "It's better to be lucky than good."

So essentially you are rewarding Brosius for having better teammates than A-Rod?

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:55 AM

Really what you're saying is...

I'd take Brosius and the 1998 Yankees over A-Rod and the 2008 Yankees.

Well, obviously. You're equating team performance with the individuals. It doesn't work like that. Put Brosius on the 2008 Yankees and the team would have finished in 4 place. Put A-Rod on the 1998 Yankees and the team would have won a lot more than 114 games on route to a World Championship.

You can't change history and claim you know what would have happened. At best you are conjecturing what was most likely to happen.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:56 AM

But your reading into it. Does anyone actually believe Brosius is a better baseball player then ARod? No, of course not.

We just won 3 championships with him, and 0 with ARod.

That doesn't say shit about what Brosius actually contributed compared to A-Rod. You are assuming that Brosius was the reason the Yankees won and A-Rod is the reason they lost.

They are individuals. Teams win rings, not individuals.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:56 AM

You can't change history and claim you know what would have happened. At best you are conjecturing what was most likely to happen.

Do you really think otherwise?

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:56 AM

So essentially you are rewarding Brosius for having better teammates than A-Rod?

No, I'm not rewarding him at all, I'm a Mets fan.

But Yankees fans reward him for getting a huge hit at the right place at the right time.

Regardless of whether it was talent or luck. Much of that luck absolutely comes from having better teammates, no doubt. But he still got that hit when he needed it.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:57 AM

Do you really think otherwise?

I don't have the hubris to pretend to know what I can't know.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:57 AM

You can't change history and claim you know what would have happened. At best you are conjecturing what was most likely to happen.

And we can use statistics like Batting Wins and Win Shares to put at least a decent estimate together. Of course we'll never know the absolute truth, but I'd have to seriously question the judgement of someone who wouldn't take A-Rod on their team over Scott freaking Brosius.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:58 AM

nevermind

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 10:58 AM

I don't have the hubris to pretend to know what I can't know.

It's a good thing that I didn't ask you what you know then, huh? I asked what you think.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 10:59 AM

And we can use statistics like Batting Wins and Win Shares to put at least a decent estimate together. Of course we'll never know the absolute truth, but I'd have to seriously question the judgement of someone who wouldn't take A-Rod on their team over Scott freaking Brosius.

The playoffs are a crapshoot you stats guys always say. Tiny sample size. So you have no idea what influence A-Rod would have had on that team in the postseason. Pretending you do is laughable.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:00 AM

It's a good thing that I didn't ask you what you know then, huh? I asked what you think.

I think it's 50-50 whether or not A-Rod makes an out where Scott hit a huge homer that year. It's a sample size of one at-bat.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:02 AM

The playoffs are a crapshoot you stats guys always say. Tiny sample size. So you have no idea what influence A-Rod would have had on that team in the postseason. Pretending you do is laughable.

The playoffs are a crapshoot and there is no way to gauge what a player would do. So in that sense, sure, we don't know what A-Rod would do there.

But at the same time, you guys are rewarding Brosius because he happened to get a couple big hits in the playoffs. Yeah, that worked out then. But over the course of the long haul, it won't happen. Why? Because Brosius isn't very good. And A-Rod is. So I'll take A-Rod on my team. Maybe I won't win a ring, but my percentages are a hell of a lot higher than they would be if I had Brosius.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:03 AM

I think it's 50-50 whether or not A-Rod makes an out where Scott hit a huge homer that year. It's a sample size of one at-bat.

And you're boiling this down to one at-bat. What if A-Rod gets hits earlier in that game, or in that series, that completely erase the need for that Brosius HR?

This is not as black and white as you're trying to make it.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:03 AM

But at the same time, you guys are rewarding Brosius because he happened to get a couple big hits in the playoffs.

And why not? The idea is to win a WS right? Why not reward any contribution to that, whether it was "innate skill" or luck?

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 11:04 AM

:lol :lol :lol

Ryan you took the bait. I'm sorry.
That's entrapment. You know I can deal with a lot, but that would set me off...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:04 AM

And you're boiling this down to one at-bat. What if A-Rod gets hits earlier in that game, or in that series, that completely erase the need for that Brosius HR?

This is not as black and white as you're trying to make it.

You made my point. You have NO idea what happens if A-Rod is on that team, whether or not you think you have a good guess.

You DO know what Brosius did.

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 11:05 AM

That doesn't say shit about what Brosius actually contributed compared to A-Rod. You are assuming that Brosius was the reason the Yankees won and A-Rod is the reason they lost.

They are individuals. Teams win rings, not individuals.

No, clearly I understand that.

I'm simply making the argument that Yankees fans do not actually think Scott Brosius is better then Arod. Its the fact that the Yankees won three titles with Scott, and zero with Alex.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:06 AM

And why not? The idea is to win a WS right? Why not reward any contribution to that, whether it was "innate skill" or luck?

Because luck is meaningless. You can't predict luck. You can't work on your 'luck.' You make judgments based on the numbers. Just because Brosius got lucky once doesn't mean he'd get lucky again. Building your team on a premise of luck is a fool's game. So how are you going to reward someone for being lucky?

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:09 AM

You made my point. You have NO idea what happens if A-Rod is on that team, whether or not you think you have a good guess.

You DO know what Brosius did.

Percentages say A-Rod kicks Brosius's ass. No, I have no way of knowing what would happen. But that's not the point. If you build your team on luck, you're going to lose more often than not. Just because it worked out for Brosius and the Yankees in 1998 doesn't mean it's a viable system. It's luck.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:09 AM

Because luck is meaningless. You can't predict luck. You can't work on your 'luck.' You make judgments based on the numbers. Just because Brosius got lucky once doesn't mean he'd get lucky again. Building your team on a premise of luck is a fool's game. So how are you going to reward someone for being lucky?

- Luck is meaningless to YOU, not to everyone.

- There's more to life (and baseball) than what you can predict.

- I'm not talking about building a team. I'm talking about why someone is beloved.

- Being a beloved Yankee is the reward for being lucky.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:10 AM

Percentages say A-Rod kicks Brosius's ass. No, I have no way of knowing what would happen. But that's not the point. If you build your team on luck, you're going to lose more often than not. Just because it worked out for Brosius and the Yankees in 1998 doesn't mean it's a viable system. It's luck.

But championships are all that matter to Yankees fans, not how you got there. If you get there by luck, you got there all the same.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:13 AM

- Luck is meaningless to YOU, not to everyone.

- There's more to life (and baseball) than what you can predict.

- I'm not talking about building a team. I'm talking about why someone is beloved.

- Being a beloved Yankee is the reward for being lucky.

-Anyone who puts value in luck over skill is a fool, IMO.

-Baseball is a percentages game. Just because someone got lucky once doesn't mean it's a skill that can be replicated, and doesn't mean people should place higher value on that player.

-I wasn't talking about being beloved. My initial post said that Yankee fans who would rather have Brosius than A-Rod are idiots.

-Again, not talking about reward in a fan-favorite sense. I'm talking about putting additional value on a player because of his luck.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:20 AM

But championships are all that matter to Yankees fans, not how you got there. If you get there by luck, you got there all the same.

I'm not talking about which player is more beloved. I'm talking about the ignorant people who call into WFAN and say that they'd rather have Scott Brosius playing 3rd than A-Rod.

There are no words to describe how dumb that is.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:21 AM

-Anyone who puts value in luck over skill is a fool, IMO.
Okay.

Baseball is a percentages game. Just because someone got lucky once doesn't mean it's a skill that can be replicated, and doesn't mean people should place higher value on that player.
Okay.

-I wasn't talking about being beloved. My initial post said that Yankee fans who would rather have Brosius than A-Rod are idiots.
Okay.

-Again, not talking about reward in a fan-favorite sense. I'm talking about putting additional value on a player because of his luck.
Well being beloved *is* a form of value. Why should we not talk about that?

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:22 AM

I'm not talking about which player is more beloved. I'm talking about the ignorant people who call into WFAN and say that they'd rather have Scott Brosius playing 3rd than A-Rod.

There are no words to describe how dumb that is.

Okay.

Ascf33

02-10-2009, 11:23 AM

:lol

God, I love baseball season.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:25 AM

Well being beloved *is* a form of value. Why should we not talk about that?

How?

I'm talking about baseball value. Not celebrity value. Being beloved doesn't make you any more of a baseball player. I can field a team of my most beloved players, but it won't come near stacking up to a team of the best players.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:27 AM

How?

I'm talking about baseball value. Not celebrity value. Being beloved doesn't make you any more of a baseball player. I can field a team of my most beloved players, but it won't come near stacking up to a team of the best players.

Well, if you're most beloved team consists of all of the 98 Yankees, they are going to stack up either as well or better than ANY team A-Rod is on when it comes to winning a WS. This we know.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:34 AM

Well, if you're most beloved team consists of all of the 98 Yankees, they are going to stack up either as well or better than ANY team A-Rod is on when it comes to winning a WS. This we know.

That's fine if these people were saying "I'd rather have the 1998 Yankees than the 2008 Yankees."

They are specifically targeting A-Rod and wish to replace him with Brosius.

If the Yankee fan's goal is to field a team of his beloved players, fine. But we all know that isn't the case. These people want to win. And they honestly believe that Scott Brosius gives them a better chance to win than Alex Rodriguez does, because Brosius was fortunate enough to play on a fantastic team.

In that case, give me Chad Curtis over Barry Bonds, Paul O'Neill over Ted Williams, Tim Raines over Ken Griffey Jr., Joe Girardi over Mike Piazza, Luis Sojo over Don Mattingly, etc.

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 11:36 AM

That's fine if these people were saying "I'd rather have the 1998 Yankees than the 2008 Yankees."

They are specifically targeting A-Rod and wish to replace him with Brosius.

If the Yankee fan's goal is to field a team of his beloved players, fine. But we all know that isn't the case. These people want to win. And they honestly believe that Scott Brosius gives them a better chance to win than Alex Rodriguez does, because Brosius was fortunate enough to play on a fantastic team.

In that case, give me Chad Curtis over Barry Bonds, Paul O'Neill over Ted Williams, Tim Raines over Ken Griffey Jr., Joe Girardi over Mike Piazza, Luis Sojo over Don Mattingly, etc. This is a good point...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:36 AM

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 11:37 AM

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:39 AM

No, because you're spending money to put the best possible talent on the field. That's A-Rod, not Brosius...

I'm not following.

If you have two teams:

A-Rod plus lesser pitching

Brosius plus better pitching

it is quite possible that the second team is the better team.

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:41 AM

Yeah but you are spending $30/year for A-Rod's production. If having Brosius for $5/year and $25/year to spend on pitching gives you an overall better team, is it not better to have Brosius than A-Rod?

1.) You're assuming that A-Rod's contract is impeding them from doing what it takes to field a competent team around him. Not the case.

2.) You're assuming that there are actually good pitchers out there to spend the $25 million on. Take a look at the free agent pitchers over the past few years who have gotten relatively big deals. Carlos Silva? Gil Meche? Barry Zito? Jason Schmidt? Carl Pavano? Pedro Martinez?

You can't build a team through free agency. Very few big pitchers have panned out after signing their big deals.

and finally,

3.) You're assuming that the Yankee fans want Brosius over A-Rod for monetary reasons. This isn't the case, at least from what I've heard. These people actually think Scott Brosius has some intangible skill that A-Rod doesn't have, because Brosius won a World Series.

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 11:42 AM

I'm not following.

If you have two teams:

A-Rod plus lesser pitching

Brosius plus better pitching

it is quite possible that the second team is the better team.
This is really a subjective argument. It's all dependent on who is on the team along with the players. If it's the '98 Yankees against the Pirates + A-Rod, it's obvious who I'm taking. However, if you're looking at the current Yankees (yes, with CC and AJ) with Brosius, versus say....the Diamondbacks with A-Rod, I'm going to take A-Rod every day of the week and twice on Sunday...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:45 AM

1.) You're assuming that A-Rod's contract is impeding them from doing what it takes to field a competent team around him. Not the case.

Evidence? Proof?

2.) You're assuming that there are actually good pitchers out there to spend the $25 million on. Take a look at the free agent pitchers over the past few years who have gotten relatively big deals. Carlos Silva? Gil Meche? Barry Zito? Jason Schmidt? Carl Pavano? Pedro Martinez?
They could have traded for pitchers as well. Like, you know, Hughes and Kennedy for Santana.

You can't build a team through free agency. Very few big pitchers have panned out after signing their big deals.
Agreed, although you can fill a giant hole through FA at times.

3.) You're assuming that the Yankee fans want Brosius over A-Rod for monetary reasons. This isn't the case, at least from what I've heard. These people actually think Scott Brosius has some intangible skill that A-Rod doesn't have, because Brosius won a World Series.
Well I do believe there is merit to the argument that A-Rod has become a choker in the biggest spots. You claim it's simply luck, but there's really no way you can prove that it's luck rather than a mental defect on the part of a-Rod, which is what many people believe.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 11:45 AM

This is really a subjective argument. It's all dependent on who is on the team along with the players. If it's the '98 Yankees against the Pirates + A-Rod, it's obvious who I'm taking. However, if you're looking at the current Yankees (yes, with CC and AJ) with Brosius, versus say....the Diamondbacks with A-Rod, I'm going to take A-Rod every day of the week and twice on Sunday...

What if you took the current team, and replaced A-Rod and Hughes with Brosius (and his 1998 level of production) and Johan Santana?

ajgdrums7814

02-10-2009, 11:51 AM

Evidence? Proof?

How about their $210 million dollar payroll? The fact that they signed A-Rod to a $275 million dollar deal last winter, and then signed C.C. Sabathia to a $161 million dollar contract, Mark Teixeira to a $180 million dollar contract and A.J. Burnett to a $82.5 million dollar contract.

These were probably 3 of the biggest 4 names out on free agency. The Yankees aren't hindered by A-Rod's contract. Who else did you want them to give money to?

They could have traded for pitchers as well. Like, you know, Hughes and Kennedy for Santana.

The reason they passed on this wasn't because of the money. It was because they didn't want to trade Hughes. The team spent all that money and then some on Sabathia. So money wasn't the issue. They were willing to spend. They just weren't willing to deal away their top prospect.

Agreed, although you can fill a giant hole through FA at times.

Absolutely, especially offensively. But you need to develop young arms if you're going to succeed. They hadn't done that.

Well I do believe there is merit to the argument that A-Rod has become a choker in the biggest spots. You claim it's simply luck, but there's really no way you can prove that it's luck rather than a mental defect on the part of a-Rod, which is what many people believe.

Then how do you explain the successes that A-Rod has had in the postseason?

People used to say the same thing about Barry Bonds being a choker. Then he blew everyone away in 2002. You can't draw any reasonable conclusions from sample sizes so small. And again, A-Rod has had success in the playoffs. The entire assertion is a myth.

HoldemHart

02-10-2009, 11:51 AM

Anyone catching any spring training games this year? I'm catching the Yanks in Kissimmee against the Astros and in Tampa against the Pirates. There's nothing better than drinking beers during a gorgeous florida afternoon, can't wait.

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 12:11 PM

What if you took the current team, and replaced A-Rod and Hughes with Brosius (and his 1998 level of production) and Johan Santana?
They lose too much offensively IMO...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 12:52 PM

Then how do you explain the successes that A-Rod has had in the postseason?

People used to say the same thing about Barry Bonds being a choker. Then he blew everyone away in 2002. You can't draw any reasonable conclusions from sample sizes so small. And again, A-Rod has had success in the playoffs. The entire assertion is a myth.

A-Rod has not had any postseason success since 2004. That's a fact.

What's the cause of this? Statistics cannot help us here because the sample size is so small.

You claim it's just luck. Many people think he can no longer handle the pressure. It cannot be proved or disproved either way at this point, but I think either opinion is equally plausible.

hbktonyb

02-10-2009, 01:09 PM

His 2007 postseason was not that bad. If you watched every at bat, they literally gave him NOTHING to hit.

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 01:10 PM

His 2007 postseason was not that bad. If you watched every at bat, they literally gave him NOTHING to hit.

I'll take your word for it.

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 01:20 PM

His 2007 postseason was not that bad. If you watched every at bat, they literally gave him NOTHING to hit.
Yeah, this is the problem I have with the whole A-Rod is a choker thing. He's the best player on his team, and one of the best in the game, he gets nothing to hit when it comes playoff time. Granted most great players capitalize on the mistakes of pitchers and he hasn't been able to, but much of that is due to the fact that he's pressing and trying to make something happen...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 01:24 PM

Yeah, this is the problem I have with the whole A-Rod is a choker thing. He's the best player on his team, and one of the best in the game, he gets nothing to hit when it comes playoff time. Granted most great players capitalize on the mistakes of pitchers and he hasn't been able to, but much of that is due to the fact that he's pressing and trying to make something happen...

I mean - isn't that part of what it is to choke though? Mets fans said the same thing about David Wright when's fucked up because of pressing. Don't press. Take the freakin walk. You're on the Yankees, who have like 50 other 25+ HR hitters batting in front and behind you...

ProudestAnt

02-10-2009, 01:30 PM

I mean - isn't that part of what it is to choke though? Mets fans said the same thing about David Wright when's fucked up because of pressing. Don't press. Take the freakin walk. You're on the Yankees, who have like 50 other 25+ HR hitters batting in front and behind you...
When you produce all season and suddenly can't connect on that ONE pitch you get an at bat in the playoffs, it's not that easy to just take the walk. Teams live and die by guys like A-Rod and D-Wright. These guys know this and they try to make something happen, you can't fault them for wanting to win that bad...

MistreatedLewis

02-10-2009, 01:31 PM

When you produce all season and suddenly can't connect on that ONE pitch you get an at bat in the playoffs, it's not that easy to just take the walk. Teams live and die by guys like A-Rod and D-Wright. These guys know this and they try to make something happen, you can't fault them for wanting to win that bad...

You actually *can* fault them for it if the make stupid decisions because of it. These guys aren't Pujols or Bonds - the both play on relatively stacked lineups. Take the walk.