Whats the limit

[Carbon Copy]

Ive heard great riffs, intricate guitar work, terrible lyrics. sometimes make a bad song

Ive heard easy riffs that took 5 minutes to learn with amazing metaphorical lyrics that are completley complex and beautiful.

must you be amazing at guitar to make a beautiful song. i dont believe so. others may dissagree. id love to hear your opinions.

what makes a great song. is it the passion, the words, the feeling, the musicical intricacy, what defines love of music

[UPandDOWNstrum]

Ive heard great riffs, intricate guitar work, terrible lyrics. sometimes make a bad song

Ive heard easy riffs that took 5 minutes to learn with amazing metaphorical lyrics that are completley complex and beautiful.

must you be amazing at guitar to make a beautiful song. i dont believe so. others may dissagree. id love to hear your opinions.

what makes a great song. is it the passion, the words, the feeling, the musicical intricacy, what defines love of music


Conviction

[Pat M]

Absolutely not.

[rastawolf]

When the various pieces all work together to evoke emotion within the listener.........you'll find a great song

[UPandDOWNstrum]

Absolutely not.
uhhhhh:freak

[randumhero]

hey carbon copy, never noticed you were from purdue...me too. i think good lyrics with a good riff/chord progression are a necessity for good music, when musical composition is considered. however, if you are just into making a good tune that will play on the radio for a month (i.e. rap/hip-hop) you just need a catchy phrase and a beat/rhythm to go along with. my point is, classic songs like led zeppelin's stairway to heaven for example, is a successful song because the musicians are just that...musicians...not pushing buttons and looping sound bytes over a synthesized beat...my overall point is, the catalyst in the whole equation of music is the person making it, their experiences, thoughts, emotions...education. addressing your statement about lyrics being such an important part of music, i agree, however, i enjoy just as much or more, music without lyrics...i feel that is when the true musicianship of an artist comes out. using sounds of the instrument he/she is playing to explain the situation/emotion where words would be...my 2 cents.

[The Lizard King]

must you be amazing at guitar to make a beautiful song. i dont believe so. others may dissagree. id love to hear your opinions.


Obviously not......Dave Matthews has made some great songs over the years :angel

[onemanguitarban]

hey carbon copy, never noticed you were from purdue...me too. i think good lyrics with a good riff/chord progression are a necessity for good music, when musical composition is considered. however, if you are just into making a good tune that will play on the radio for a month (i.e. rap/hip-hop) you just need a catchy phrase and a beat/rhythm to go along with. my point is, classic songs like led zeppelin's stairway to heaven for example, is a successful song because the musicians are just that...musicians...not pushing buttons and looping sound bytes over a synthesized beat...my overall point is, the catalyst in the whole equation of music is the person making it, their experiences, thoughts, emotions...education. addressing your statement about lyrics being such an important part of music, i agree, however, i enjoy just as much or more, music without lyrics...i feel that is when the true musicianship of an artist comes out. using sounds of the instrument he/she is playing to explain the situation/emotion where words would be...my 2 cents.

Real musicians can make music using loops and "synthesized beats" and pushing buttons too. Just becuse most of what you have heard comes across as tallentless just...doesn't mean that these are tools that can be used by real musicians.

You might be surprised at how many albums have "loops" that the artist played and then the producer looped to make it tighter on the album. Or how many albums have drum programing on them. Even real musicians like John Scofield has albums that have used all of the above techniques.

and most of Led Zeppelin's catalog if recorded today would most likely have used some looping tricks....considering Page played the same riff over and over for a particular song most of the time.

Many people fail to see the art and musicianship it takes to create these loops and beats...they seem to think there is a magical button they press to easily create a great beat or loop.....it is just a tool like a guitar or drum is to create music.

[Pat M]

uhhhhh:freak

I'm saying you don't have to be great at guitar to write a beautiful song.

[Stuntcheeks]

Good question, however I find the answer to be obvious.

Off the top of my head I can think of many, many amazing songs that are incredibly simple to play.

Almost all of Dylan's stuff is VERY simple to play on guitar and quite honestly sung w/that "unique" dylan delivery that some people loathe. Does that make the songs less amazing? Not to me.

Look at Johnny Cash. Mediocre guitarist at best. Wrote amazing songs, though.

Buffett, John Prine, Kris Kristofferson, even some Dave...

I almost said Willie Nelson because his songs are gorgeous yet simple, however the man is quite the guitar player.

[GeorgeJr.]

neil young?

[randumhero]

i know loops are used in recorded music...in the studio...i think it takes more talent and musicianship to play instruments live and on stage, rather than behind a computer. i know the interworkings of looping and electronic music is difficult, however, i think with the way computers are today and the programs you can use to make these beats and what not have become vastly easier than in the past (i.e. pink floyd - live at pompeii).

[chr35919]

neil young?


if you're saying he writes simple songs you may be partially right. Some of his stuff his simple....but the man can rip a solo. If you've seen him with CSN you know. Neil Young is by no means a mediocre guitarist.

[DaveHead36]

I used to think looping and all of that was an artless form created by wannabe musicians who couldn't play. Then you sit down and think about the creativity and time it takes to create those songs and it's amazing. Not only perfecting timing but also pitch, trying to get everything to sync up. It's actually more difficult than it appears. Don't forget, most of Stand Up was made this way. Do a riff, loop it, make a song. Everyone does it.

To answer the original question, I think a song just has to envoke something within yourself, whether it's a riff, a lyric, a change, a drum fill, whatever... it sparks something in yourself and reaches everyone a different way.

DH36

[GeorgeJr.]

if you're saying he writes simple songs you may be partially right. Some of his stuff his simple....but the man can rip a solo. If you've seen him with CSN you know. Neil Young is by no means a mediocre guitarist.

i meant...simple can be beautiful . not a cut at neil

[onemanguitarban]

Neil Young is by no means a mediocre guitarist.

For a professional guitarist, I'd say he is mediocre.

[Pat M]

For a professional guitarist, I'd say he is mediocre.

He's a professional musician.

[onemanguitarban]

He's a professional musician.

Who plays the guitar. (if he only sang...I'm not convinced he would have made it professionally)

[chr35919]

Who plays the guitar. (if he only sang...I'm not convinced he would have made it professionally)

obviously not a fan


he also plays the harmonica and piano...some of his songs(namely after the gold rush...the song not album) are great lyrically too

[onemanguitarban]

obviously not a fan


he also plays the harmonica and piano...some of his songs(namely after the gold rush...the song not album) are great lyrically too

His lyrics are the only thing I'd give him much credit for. His playing and singing ability are both sup-par for a national touring act.

[chr35919]

His lyrics are the only thing I'd give him much credit for. His playing and singing ability are both sup-par for a national touring act.


his playing is not sub-par...Okay I know we just have different opinions so let's let it die...but give him some credit

[onemanguitarban]

his playing is not sub-par...Okay I know we just have different opinions so let's let it die...but give him some credit

How about mediocre? Is that a better term? (I'd say he is below average...ie...sub-par for a professional musician).

[chr35919]

How about mediocre? Is that a better term? (I'd say he is below average...ie...sub-par for a professional musician).

so what would you call Dave?....he must be awful right? You can't honestly say Neil is worse than Dave can you???

[chr35919]

Here's a video(248 mb) of some good stuff

Neil Young live at BBC studios 2-23-1971
from his tour after releasing After the Goldrush

Out On The Weekend
Old Man
Journey Through The Past
Heart Of Gold
Don't Let It Bring You Down
A Man Needs A Maid

hxxp://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=2F5C626B7498ACB1

[JG2121]

When the various pieces all work together to evoke emotion within the listener.........you'll find a great song
This sums up alot of it for me. :thumbsup

[Mr. Vertical]

:BANG For a professional guitarist, I'd say he is mediocre.
:BANG :BANG :BANG
dude I can see how someone can not like neils music, but to call him a mediocre guitarist is just ignorant. I saw Neil w/ crazy horse (oasis opened), playing an electric or acoustic he can play. He may not be Tim Reynolds, but he has his own style, great electric tone. He smokes some amazing solos with CSNY, If you don't like someone is fine but he is not mediocre. And another thing why is it always a competition for musicians. Once you have been in the business for 40 years,and have produced 500+ songs then pass judgement. Peace

[Carbon Copy]

thing with onemanguitarband. (sorry i dont know your name) is that he knows alot about music it seems like. so he might know many guitarists that are much better than neil young which to him would make neil mediocre

[JTR&PIG]

for me a great song contains NO RAP, acoustical strumming patterns intermixed with riffs that have that conviction that capture your attention and make you want to pick up and instrument and play that exact same tune to the best of your ability...anyone else feel this with Dave?

[JTR&PIG]

Here's a video(248 mb) of some good stuff

Neil Young live at BBC studios 2-23-1971
from his tour after releasing After the Goldrush

Out On The Weekend
Old Man
Journey Through The Past
Heart Of Gold
Don't Let It Bring You Down
A Man Needs A Maid

hxxp://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=2F5C626B7498ACB1
thats a hell of a show, I have seen that a few times, and he was on the cover of Rolling Stone, but anyway he plays a very unique style and it sounds great, I have always loved his style.

[AshkaanF]

Mikey Houser was by no means the best guitar player, but there is a measure of soul and grace that no talent or speed could ever amount to. I think a lot of people don't factor this into the equation.

[Dancing Ants]

i think Neil's voice is very distinct.

as for simple is great, i'd suggest most anything by The Band. amazing lyrics...sometimes a bit oblique, but none the less amazing stuff.

[onemanguitarban]

thing with onemanguitarband. (sorry i dont know your name) is that he knows alot about music it seems like. so he might know many guitarists that are much better than neil young which to him would make neil mediocre

Bingo

[onemanguitarban]

:BANG
:BANG :BANG :BANG
dude I can see how someone can not like neils music, but to call him a mediocre guitarist is just ignorant. I saw Neil w/ crazy horse (oasis opened), playing an electric or acoustic he can play. He may not be Tim Reynolds, but he has his own style, great electric tone. He smokes some amazing solos with CSNY, If you don't like someone is fine but he is not mediocre. And another thing why is it always a competition for musicians. Once you have been in the business for 40 years,and have produced 500+ songs then pass judgement. Peace

I have produced 9 "full" CDs in the past 7 years since I've started recording...and I've been playing for about 12 years...and its just a hobby for me. So I do have some room to talk on the subject. Compared to the guitarists I'm familiar with and listen to he is mediocre...bottom line.

[onemanguitarban]

so what would you call Dave?....he must be awful right? You can't honestly say Neil is worse than Dave can you???

Depends on how you look at it. In many respects I think Dave is a better musician....he is certainly a better singer and a more creative guitar player. Obviously Dave couldn't play a "great" solo, but I'd say his rhythm playing is better than Neil's...it is certainly cleaner in terms of technique. \

Yes...Dave is a "mediocre guitar player" in terms of overall playing ability ...but at least he was quite creative and that is just as important as technical ability in many regards...which is part of what I'm getting at.

[GeorgeJr.]

blah, blah, blah

[Carbon Copy]

blah, blah, blah

about as insightful as this post

[MistreatedLewis]

For me, I find a great song to be one that I like more and more everytime I listen to it. Otherwise, I don't have a magical, mathematical formula that designated a great song from a lousy one. To me, great music doesn't get old, which is why Under the Table and Dreaming still sounds great twelve years later and the Moonlight Sonata still sounds great 100s of years later.
:)

[jimibadfish]

Real musicians can make music using loops and "synthesized beats" and pushing buttons too. Just becuse most of what you have heard comes across as tallentless just...doesn't mean that these are tools that can be used by real musicians.

You might be surprised at how many albums have "loops" that the artist played and then the producer looped to make it tighter on the album. Or how many albums have drum programing on them. Even real musicians like John Scofield has albums that have used all of the above techniques.

and most of Led Zeppelin's catalog if recorded today would most likely have used some looping tricks....considering Page played the same riff over and over for a particular song most of the time.

Many people fail to see the art and musicianship it takes to create these loops and beats...they seem to think there is a magical button they press to easily create a great beat or loop.....it is just a tool like a guitar or drum is to create music.

:thumbsup
Sources cited:

Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins, Flecktones, Incubus, The Roots, etc.

[UPandDOWNstrum]

God just called me and settled the whole dispute for me. In order for a song to be great, Paul Simon either has to write it or endorse it. Sorry if I disappointed anyone, and Paul Simon digs Neil Young so sorry pal.


"It was late in the evening and I blew that room away"

Do yourselves a favor and see One Trick Pony.