AL Cy Young

[ProudestAnt]

This one's kind of a no-brainer, but who ya got?

[Hudak-Budak]

Cliff.

[devilandthelord]

Cliff Claven.

[SmoothD41]

Clifford the Big Red Dog.

[MistreatedLewis]

Cliff with mad props to Doc Halladay

[Nick@Night]

The heir to the Lee brand of jeans fortune.

[mr. testaverde]

clifford lee

[devilandthelord]

I met him at the Circuit City I used to work at in Cleveland once.
This was right before the year he sucked I believe. Haha

[smeritt]

Any guy who goes from minor leagues to 21-2 with obviously no steroid use, look at the guy, is deserving of every award in the book. I think if they kept C.C they might be a halfway decent team

[devilandthelord]

Any guy who goes from minor leagues to 21-2 with obviously no steroid use, look at the guy, is deserving of every award in the book. I think if they kept C.C they might be a halfway decent team

I was thinking about that the other day.
With the second half tear they've been on, if they still had C.C. and he was pitching near as well as he has for the Brewers they might be contending for that division right now.
Geez.

[hbktonyb]

Mike Mussina

[thebestauntie]

Dustin Pedroia

[rickyh24]

:lol



awesome :hug

[thebestauntie]

:lol



awesome :hug
Hee hee, thanks Ricky. :hug

[mr. testaverde]

Mike Mussina


while he's got no chance of winning it, i bet if he somehow gets to 20 wins he'll get some votes

[john baptiste]

while he's got no chance of winning it, i bet if he somehow gets to 20 wins he'll get some votes
which says much more about the voters than mussina.

[Ascf33]

Carl Pavano... again.

[john baptiste]

interesting article about halladay vs. lee

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/more-on-the-al-cy-young-landscape/

[Tiduwho]

Carl Pavano... again.

:lol

[Nick@Night]

Halladay reached 20 wins tonight with a complete game tonight...think he can overtake Lee?

[crashintonickdm]

cliff lee easily.

ESPN however will say josh beckett or somehow roger clemens.

[boarderx5423]

Leee

[devilandthelord]

Halladay reached 20 wins tonight with a complete game tonight...think he can overtake Lee?

Not a chance. It's been Lee's for over a month now.

[smeritt]

Lee's got more wins, Doc has gotten better numbers and his team has more wins in a tougher division.......

[john baptiste]

i change my vote to doc.

[Ascf33]

After last nights performance...

Carl Pavano

[scrock25]

which says much more about the voters than mussina.

You don't think that what he's done this year garners any attention or props?

I don't at all think that he's deserving of the C.Y., I mean at all - but it seems to me that you rush to discount any and all Yankee accomplishments.

A 20 game winner is a 20 game winner and they deserve to be recognized regardless - even considering that there were better pitchers than him this season.

[john baptiste]

You don't think that what he's done this year garners any attention or props?

I don't at all think that he's deserving of the C.Y., I mean at all - but it seems to me that you rush to discount any and all Yankee accomplishments.

A 20 game winner is a 20 game winner and they deserve to be recognized regardless - even considering that there were better pitchers than him this season.
1. what you quoted of me was replying to someone who said that "if he reaches 20 wins he'll get votes", insinuating that if he hadn't gotten to 20 wins he wouldn't have gotten any votes. as i said, this says much more about the voters than mussina. because cy young only does top three (instead of top 10) i don't think he will get any votes, but he's definitely been a top ten pitcher this year. the fact that him hitting some magical number of twenty wins (the worst measuring stick of pitchers there is) makes him somehow that much better than he was at 18 or 19 wins is completely 100% insane. so, if you had followed the whole conversation, you'd have seen that what i said wan an indictment of the voters, not moose.

2. yankee accomplishments get blown out of proportion. people are claiming that jeter is a shoo-in for 4k hits. that's crazy. he may get there (and i -- personally -- would be extremely surprised if he does) but people are extrapolating out the best years of his career and assuming he'll maintain the pace. for a slappy, singles-guy who utilizes his quickness, to claim that age will have no affect on him is, again, insane.
that's the only other time i can remember ever talking about the yankees.

and there's no rush to discount. i just call things as i see them. i throw my opinion around. i'm not claiming any of my opinions are facts, or set in stone. in the 2 Cy Young threads, i've already changed my "vote" in both of them.

[UNC41]

You don't think that what he's done this year garners any attention or props?

I don't at all think that he's deserving of the C.Y., I mean at all - but it seems to me that you rush to discount any and all Yankee accomplishments.

A 20 game winner is a 20 game winner and they deserve to be recognized regardless - even considering that there were better pitchers than him this season.

If Mussina gets to 20, yes he deserves to be recognized. But as a 20-game winner, not a Cy Young candidate.

[scrock25]

If Mussina gets to 20, yes he deserves to be recognized. But as a 20-game winner, not a Cy Young candidate.

Sure, I stated above that I think there are more deserving candidates. However, will it really be that surprising or unfounded if a few writers give him some votes? I don't think so.

[thebestauntie]

Dustin Pedroia

[john baptiste]

Sure, I stated above that I think there are more deserving candidates. However, will it really be that surprising or unfounded if a few writers give him some votes? I don't think so.
that's not the point. they probably WILL, but they shouldn't. [B]if he wasn't on their ballot with 18 wins, he shouldn't be on their ballot just because he got to twenty

[scrock25]

Stop it.

[john baptiste]

Stop it.
that was the last straw for me. she made it to my ignore list.

[thebestauntie]

that was the last straw for me. she made it to my ignore list.
Awww. :(:(:(

[scrock25]

that's not the point. they probably WILL, but they shouldn't. [B]if he wasn't on their ballot with 18 wins, he shouldn't be on their ballot just because he got to twenty

I guess I don't understand the point then.

I simply think it's your Yankee bias. I'm not trying to call you out or fight with you here either but take your statement and put in Doc or Cliff and it's the same thing.

Should they be on anybodys ballot with 18 wins? If not, why are they there just because they reached 20??

I'm not trying to oversimplify, but it's not like those votes that Mussina will get are inhibiting either of the other two from winning. It doesn't matter - the voters are simply rewarding him for his accomplishments - just like they're rewarding Doc and Cliff for their accomplishments with more C.Y. votes and a win.

[scrock25]

that was the last straw for me. she made it to my ignore list.

Question, perhaps this is better asked in another thread - but who's your pick for AL MVP - honestly?

[UNC41]

Sure, I stated above that I think there are more deserving candidates. However, will it really be that surprising or unfounded if a few writers give him some votes? I don't think so.

No, it won't be surprising if Mussina receives votes. That doesn't mean he'll have deserved them though.

[scrock25]

No, it won't be surprising if Mussina receives votes. That doesn't mean he'll have deserved them though.

Well, that's your opinion then I guess.

[UNC41]

Well, that's your opinion then I guess.

How do you justify giving a guy who is 10th in ERA and 11th in WHIP among starters a 1st, 2nd or 3rd place vote? I'm not denying Mussina had a very good year, but he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

[john baptiste]

I guess I don't understand the point then.

I simply think it's your Yankee bias. I'm not trying to call you out or fight with you here either but take your statement and put in Doc or Cliff and it's the same thing.

Should they be on anybodys ballot with 18 wins? If not, why are they there just because they reached 20??

I'm not trying to oversimplify, but it's not like those votes that Mussina will get are inhibiting either of the other two from winning. It doesn't matter - the voters are simply rewarding him for his accomplishments - just like they're rewarding Doc and Cliff for their accomplishments with more C.Y. votes and a win.

you're really not following, and i'm not sure how you're missing this. i don't think 20 wins means anything. i would be fine with johan winning the NL cy young with 13 wins or whatever he has now. you need to get over my "yankee bias". i don't have one. i have a cubs bias: i hate the cubs, but i'm objective about the yankees. i have already said that moose was a top 10 (AL) pitcher this year (and that's gut feeling more than anything else) but that the cy young voting only goes 1-3, not 1-10, so no i don't think he should make any ballots.

i'm not sure how to make it any more simple for you. wins don't mean anything at all to me. i don't even look at them when thinking about Cy Young, and neither should the voters. they don't represent anything about a pitcher.

cliff lee is on the top of most people's ballots because of the amazing way he has sliced through every opponent he has had this year. the fact that he's 22-2 or whatever is just a fun fact. doc has once again proven that he is hands-down the best innings-eating quality pitcher in the game. i can say with all honesty that i have no idea how many wins doc has. he could have 14 he could have 20, i really don't .... well, now i just remembered that nick posted in the last page that doc got his 20th last night. so i lied, i did know, i just forgot. i like doc more than lee because doc gives the jays something ALL teams need: someone who gives the bullpen a night off. they're pretty identical in terms of meaningful stats this year, i just like doc more because he throws so many innings.

i think if someone is good enough to be in Cy Young contention, they are good enough with 11 wins or 22 wins. doesn't matter.

[scrock25]

How do you justify giving a guy who is 10th in ERA and 11th in WHIP among starters a 1st, 2nd or 3rd place vote? I'm not denying Mussina had a very good year, but he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

ERA is so relative, when he pitched his team won, and it was around 3.50...in the AL that's outstanding.

Also, this may be a little bit of an oversimplification - but if his team wins on days that he pitches, and he kept them in those games, why is it relevant that he gives up 9 hits and a couple walks if the team he faced only scored a couple runs?

I really do understand what you're saying, but I disagree in saying he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

That may be my bias speaking, but again, 20 wins is 20 wins (granted he wins on Sunday).

[Ascf33]

I think its more "hyped" because he's never won 20 games... and many feel that was factor for making the HOF.

[john baptiste]

ERA is so relative, when he pitched his team won, and it was around 3.50...in the AL that's outstanding.

Also, this may be a little bit of an oversimplification - but if his team wins on days that he pitches, and he kept them in those games, why is it relevant that he gives up 9 hits and a couple walks if the team he faced only scored a couple runs?

I really do understand what you're saying, but I disagree in saying he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

That may be my bias speaking, but again, 20 wins is 20 wins (granted he wins on Sunday).
ya....i think we know who has the yankee bias here.

[scrock25]

you're really not following, and i'm not sure how you're missing this. i don't think 20 wins means anything. i would be fine with johan winning the NL cy young with 13 wins or whatever he has now. you need to get over my "yankee bias". i don't have one. i have a cubs bias: i hate the cubs, but i'm objective about the yankees. i have already said that moose was a top 10 (AL) pitcher this year (and that's gut feeling more than anything else) but that the cy young voting only goes 1-3, not 1-10, so no i don't think he should make any ballots.

i'm not sure how to make it any more simple for you. wins don't mean anything at all to me. i don't even look at them when thinking about Cy Young, and neither should the voters. they don't represent anything about a pitcher.

cliff lee is on the top of most people's ballots because of the amazing way he has sliced through every opponent he has had this year. the fact that he's 22-2 or whatever is just a fun fact. doc has once again proven that he is hands-down the best innings-eating quality pitcher in the game. i can say with all honesty that i have no idea how many wins doc has. he could have 14 he could have 20, i really don't .... well, now i just remembered that nick posted in the last page that doc got his 20th last night. so i lied, i did know, i just forgot. i like doc more than lee because doc gives the jays something ALL teams need: someone who gives the bullpen a night off. they're pretty identical in terms of meaningful stats this year, i just like doc more because he throws so many innings.

i think if someone is good enough to be in Cy Young contention, they are good enough with 11 wins or 22 wins. doesn't matter.

Well then I guess that's where you, I, and MLB voters differ. Wins are high on those voters list of things to think about when handing out votes. I understand what you're saying, but I guess that my train of thought is that if he wins, or better yet the team wins, on nights that he's pitching - then that's pretty important to me.

This of course discounts the game or two that he wins 13-8 - but if you got a 20 game winner, more often than not he's probably giving up less than 4 - regardless of how many hits/walks he gives up.

We just see it differently.

[gocubsgo3822]

Cliff Lee /thread

[john baptiste]

side note: when you're getting an average of more than five and a half runs behind you when you start, you're going to get a lot of wins. doesn't take much.

[john baptiste]

Well then I guess that's where you, I, and MLB voters differ. Wins are high on those voters list of things to think about when handing out votes. I understand what you're saying, but I guess that my train of thought is that if he wins, or better yet the team wins, on nights that he's pitching - then that's pretty important to me.

This of course discounts the game or two that he wins 13-8 - but if you got a 20 game winner, more often than not he's probably giving up less than 4 - regardless of how many hits/walks he gives up.

We just see it differently.
as long as you understand that i have no "bias" against the yankees, i'm fine with letting it go at agreeing to disagree. the only bias i have is against pitchers who win individual awards based on what their team does.

[scrock25]

as long as you understand that i have no "bias" against the yankees, i'm fine with letting it go at agreeing to disagree. the only bias i have is against pitchers who win individual awards based on what their team does.

Word.

2 things - who's your pick for AL MVP?

Do you take issue with Mussina perhaps taking down AL Comeback Player Of The Year?

[UNC41]

ERA is so relative, when he pitched his team won, and it was around 3.50...in the AL that's outstanding.

Also, this may be a little bit of an oversimplification - but if his team wins on days that he pitches, and he kept them in those games, why is it relevant that he gives up 9 hits and a couple walks if the team he faced only scored a couple runs?

I really do understand what you're saying, but I disagree in saying he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

That may be my bias speaking, but again, 20 wins is 20 wins (granted he wins on Sunday).

If anything is relative in this conversation, it is wins. Doc Halladay has one more win on the year right now than Mussina, and that is nowhere near the difference between how well the two pitched this year.

I just don't see how anything but a Yankee puts Mussina as the third best in the AL. I'm not entirely who I'd give my third place vote to, but it's not him. If I had to vote for a Yankee it'd be Mo.

[john baptiste]

Word.

2 things - who's your pick for AL MVP?

Do you take issue with Mussina perhaps taking down AL Comeback Player Of The Year?
top of my head, i can't think of anyone else who should get comeback. what did aubrey huff do the last few years? how about hafner? oh wait...that's letdown of the year.

al mvp? i think there should be a shared AL-mvp this year. i really do. mauer/morneau should share it. obviously people will scream bias, but in my mind, it's either them or youk/pedroia. no one ran away as an almost triple crown or anything. no one was the ultimate power guy or anything. morneau leads the league in RBI, mauer in avg/second in OBP (he has 115 more ABs than milton bradley who's in first in OBP). the twins are in last place -- there is no arguing that -- without those two guys.

like i said, i'm biased.

[Nick@Night]

top of my head, i can't think of anyone else who should get comeback. what did aubrey huff do the last few years? how about hafner? oh wait...that's letdown of the year.

al mvp? i think there should be a shared AL-mvp this year. i really do. mauer/morneau should share it. obviously people will scream bias, but in my mind, it's either them or youk/pedroia. no one ran away as an almost triple crown or anything. no one was the ultimate power guy or anything. morneau leads the league in RBI, mauer in avg/second in OBP (he has 115 more ABs than milton bradley who's in first in OBP). the twins are in last place -- there is no arguing that -- without those two guys.

like i said, i'm biased.
I think it was Ken Rosenthal, the head baseball writer for foxsports.com, they asked him about his MVP vote and he said it's a toss up between Morneau and Pedroia, but if he had to choose right now it's Justin, simply for the fact you remove him from this Twins team it's a bigger loss than Dustin from the BoSox.

[UNC41]

I think it was Ken Rosenthal, the head baseball writer for foxsports.com, they asked him about his MVP vote and he said it's a toss up between Morneau and Pedroia, but if he had to choose right now it's Justin, simply for the fact you remove him from this Twins team it's a bigger loss than Dustin from the BoSox.

Here some stats that speak to Morneau's impact on the Twins' lineup and its run production.
- Average with Runners On: .336
- Average with RISP: .358
- Average with RISP w/Two Out: .342
- Average with Bases Loaded: .429

[john baptiste]

wow. it's pretty hard to argue against that.

got pedroia's in the same spots?

[Nick@Night]

Here some stats that speak to Morneau's impact on the Twins' lineup and its run production.
- Average with Runners On: .336
- Average with RISP: .358
- Average with RISP w/Two Out: .342
- Average with Bases Loaded: .429
I think he's also close to scoring a hundred runs as well.

Edit: Where do those rank him in the league?

[UNC41]

wow. it's pretty hard to argue against that.

got pedroia's in the same spots?
Yup ...
- Average with Runners On: .313
- Average with RISP: .307
- Average with RISP w/Two Out: .231
- Average with Bases Loaded: .500

[Nick@Night]

Considering a guy doesn't come to the plate all that often with the bases juiced, I'd have to say that stat only holds little water compared to the other 3.

[scrock25]

Considering a guy doesn't come to the plate all that often with the bases juiced, I'd have to say that stat only holds little water compared to the other 3.

Not to mention that they're getting better pitches to hit in those situations.

[UNC41]

I think he's also close to scoring a hundred runs as well.

Edit: Where do those rank him in the league?

Considering a guy doesn't come to the plate all that often with the bases juiced, I'd have to say that stat only holds little water compared to the other 3.

Agreed. And I'm not sure about where Morneau ranks with those numbers. Found them off the situational stats on his player card page on Yahoo.

Didn't mean to derail this thread, but yeah, thought that was really impressive.

[MistreatedLewis]

Sure, I stated above that I think there are more deserving candidates. However, will it really be that surprising or unfounded if a few writers give him some votes? I don't think so.

Wins are the least important celebrated statistic baseball IMO (and in many people's opinions) other than saves perhaps when it comes to evaluating a player's performance.

That said, Mussina had a very nice season, but IMO not close to a Cy Young season. But traditionalists will obviously disagree.

Has nothing to do with him being a Yankee, just as my support of Johan Santana as a frontrunner in the NL Cy Young race has nothing to do with him being a Met.

[MistreatedLewis]

ERA is so relative, when he pitched his team won, and it was around 3.50...in the AL that's outstanding.

Also, this may be a little bit of an oversimplification - but if his team wins on days that he pitches, and he kept them in those games, why is it relevant that he gives up 9 hits and a couple walks if the team he faced only scored a couple runs?

I really do understand what you're saying, but I disagree in saying he wasn't one of the three best pitchers in the AL.

That may be my bias speaking, but again, 20 wins is 20 wins (granted he wins on Sunday).

How is it relative?

[MistreatedLewis]

I think its more "hyped" because he's never won 20 games... and many feel that was factor for making the HOF.

This is understandable

[john baptiste]

How is it relative?
you know. it's relative to how good a pitcher someone is.

[MistreatedLewis]

you know. it's relative to how good a pitcher someone is.

:lol:thumbsup

[scrock25]

Wins are the least important celebrated statistic baseball IMO (and in many people's opinions) other than saves perhaps when it comes to evaluating a player's performance.

That said, Mussina had a very nice season, but IMO not close to a Cy Young season. But traditionalists will obviously disagree.

Has nothing to do with him being a Yankee, just as my support of Johan Santana as a frontrunner in the NL Cy Young race has nothing to do with him being a Met.

I don't think he should win it either, and never said he should...only that I don't think it unfounded that he may get a couple votes.

[john baptiste]

Wins are the least important celebrated statistic baseball IMO (and in many people's opinions) other than saves perhaps when it comes to evaluating a player's performance.



i feel like a proud father ;)

[scrock25]

How is it relative?

I probably used the wrong phrase in this situation.

My point was although he's 10th in ERA in the league, what's the range between 1-10? Or better yet the median ERA??

Lee is blowing everybody out of the water in that category, but if he's only 4/10's behind #3, I don't see it having that big a bearing.

[BotheDMBFan]

K-Rod. He's my MVP too. Just because.

[jayman414]

Wins are the least important celebrated statistic baseball IMO (and in many people's opinions) other than saves perhaps when it comes to evaluating a player's performance.

That said, Mussina had a very nice season, but IMO not close to a Cy Young season. But traditionalists will obviously disagree.

Has nothing to do with him being a Yankee, just as my support of Johan Santana as a frontrunner in the NL Cy Young race has nothing to do with him being a Met.

Lewis do you really think Santana is a better choice for NL Cy Young than Tim Lincecum? Their stats are pretty even, and imo Lincecum means way more to the Giants than Santana does to the Mets. To mention for Lincecum to have 17 wins on one of the worst teams in baseball is pretty impressive. I expect Santana to go out and get at least 15 wins a year, i just think it is hard to overlook what Lincecum has done there and its hard to argue statistically that he wasnt as good if not better than Santana on a worse team.

[john baptiste]

Lewis do you really think Santana is a better choice for NL Cy Young than Tim Lincecum? Their stats are pretty even, and imo Lincecum means way more to the Giants than Santana does to the Mets. To mention for Lincecum to have 17 wins on one of the worst teams in baseball is pretty impressive. I expect Santana to go out and get at least 15 wins a year, i just think it is hard to overlook what Lincecum has done there and its hard to argue statistically that he wasnt as good if not better than Santana on a worse team.

lincecum has had better run support this year. <-- i take that back. santana has had an avg. of .04 more runs/game than lincecum.
santana has more "tough losses" (throw a quality start, lose the game) than lincecum.

articles a and b why the win means nothing when evaluating pitchers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=runSupportAvg&split=0&league=nl&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch3&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=140

[jayman414]

lincecum has had better run support this year. <-- i take that back. santana has had an avg. of .04 more runs/game than lincecum.
santana has more "tough losses" (throw a quality start, lose the game) than lincecum.

articles a and b why the win means nothing when evaluating pitchers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=runSupportAvg&split=0&league=nl&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch3&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=140

Trust me I know wins mean nothing when discussing pitchers statistics, its probably one of the last ones that should be looked at from a statistical standpoint. But nonetheless its important to look at everything with both of them, and when I do that I think that Lincecum has a more impressive season.

[BotheDMBFan]

It's also impressive, given that LIncecum is really just a tall 10 year old.

[MistreatedLewis]

Lewis do you really think Santana is a better choice for NL Cy Young than Tim Lincecum? Their stats are pretty even, and imo Lincecum means way more to the Giants than Santana does to the Mets. To mention for Lincecum to have 17 wins on one of the worst teams in baseball is pretty impressive. I expect Santana to go out and get at least 15 wins a year, i just think it is hard to overlook what Lincecum has done there and its hard to argue statistically that he wasnt as good if not better than Santana on a worse team.

I think either is a very good choice. My argument would be the fact that considering their stats are virtually identical other than strikeouts - which I place much less value on than era and IP, Lincecum has spent the last two months pitching in no pressure meaningless games and Santana has been fighting to keep his team in the playoffs. Santana has been the gutsiest player I've ever seen on the Mets (my memories of 86 are very dim) with the exception of maybe John Olerud.

[john baptiste]

Trust me I know wins mean nothing when discussing pitchers statistics, its probably one of the last ones that should be looked at from a statistical standpoint. But nonetheless its important to look at everything with both of them, and when I do that I think that Lincecum has a more impressive season.

well, your last post discussed "stats" and wins. i can't disagree more about what each pitcher's wins mean to each team. the giants are horrible no matter what. santana's wins basically decide whether the mets go to the playoffs or not...especially down the stretch. so if you want to talk about who is pitching better under bigger circumstances, the nod has to go to santana.

i do like lincecum more, but that's more because he keeps the ball in the yard and has struck out 60 more guys. as far wins go, santana's are crucial, lincecum's don't mean shit, especially when looking at run support.

[jayman414]

I think either is a very good choice. My argument would be the fact that considering their stats are virtually identical other than strikeouts - which I place much less value on than era and IP, Lincecum has spent the last two months pitching in no pressure meaningless games and Santana has been fighting to keep his team in the playoffs. Santana has been the gutsiest player I've ever seen on the Mets (my memories of 86 are very dim) with the exception of maybe John Olerud.

well, your last post discussed "stats" and wins. i can't disagree more about what each pitcher's wins mean to each team. the giants are horrible no matter what. santana's wins basically decide whether the mets go to the playoffs or not...especially down the stretch. so if you want to talk about who is pitching better under bigger circumstances, the nod has to go to santana.

i do like lincecum more, but that's more because he keeps the ball in the yard and has struck out 60 more guys. as far wins go, santana's are crucial, lincecum's don't mean shit, especially when looking at run support.

agree with both of you on the fact that Santana is directly responsible for the mets playoff chances.

[MistreatedLewis]

I think either Lincecum or Santana is a good vote.

Webb, on the other hand - are we done with him as a Cy Young contender?

[john baptiste]

I think either Lincecum or Santana is a good vote.

Webb, on the other hand - are we done with him as a Cy Young contender?
for this year.

you don't give him enough credit, though. he is a great pitcher. has just been outpitched this year.

[MistreatedLewis]

for this year.

you don't give him enough credit, though. he is a great pitcher. has just been outpitched this year.

I agree with that. He's a great pitcher. He's been a Cy Young pitcher in the past. You're right, he's just been outpitched this year. :thumbsup

Although if I were starting a team from scratch today, there's only one of the three to take from what I've seen. And he pitches by the bay.

[john baptiste]

I agree with that. He's a great pitcher. He's been a Cy Young pitcher in the past. You're right, he's just been outpitched this year. :thumbsup

Although if I were starting a team from scratch today, there's only one of the three to take from what I've seen. And he pitches by the bay.
sure. because of age. let's not forget this is only his second season.

[brendangen412]

Mooooooooooooooooooooooose.