When is the LATEST that a woman should be able to have an abortion?

[Lost Guitar]

I think most people can agree that the moment a sperm penetrates an egg you do not have a human being. Likewise, I think most people can that there is some point when the fetus/baby is still inside the mother when it should be considered a person. So here is a poll.

Leave out the rape, incest, and "for the health of the mother" BS. Assume this is just your average, plane jane pregnant woman, as is the case with the overwhelming majority of pregnancies that are terminated.

[TwoStep2888]

Pretty sure you knew how I was going to vote on this.

[penn darvis]

I voted before the first birthday, but really you should be able to abort up until the age of 3.

[Elliott Evans]

Whenever she wants. But then she has to live with her decision.

Not saying it was bad or not, just that it's a life-changing thing, to destroy potential for whatever reason.

[chr35919]

Pretty sure you knew how I was going to vote on this.
you would abort an 8 1/2 month baby?

[mr.MikeD]

sometime after puberty, need enough time to make an informed decision.

[TwoStep2888]

I voted before the first birthday, but really you should be able to abort up until the age of 3.

hehehehe, people are gonna get so fucking mad at you...

[TwoStep2888]

you would abort an 8 1/2 month baby?

Yes.

sometime after puberty, need enough time to make an informed decision.

Teenagers are little shits anyway.

[Elliott Evans]

you would abort an 8 1/2 month baby?

No, but I also can't do anything about someone else doing it now can I?

"Should" implies right or precedent or law.

[chr35919]

No, but I also can't do anything about someone else doing it now can I?

"Should" implies right or precedent or law.i'm just saying abortions should be illegal past 5 months unless the mother's life is in danger.

if you're irresponsible enough to wait 8 months to get an abortion, you don't deserve to have the privilege.


i'm pro-choice, not pro-idiot.

[thatguymikey2]

5 months is the latest you can prove it would definitely not survive if taken from the mother's womb so that gets my vote...the latest you should be able to abort a baby should be the last point where you are certain it is completely dependent on the mother and therefore a certain part of her body and has a 0% chance of survival.

[BreakFree27]

here we go.

[thestand]

I feel like the idea of abortion is one where it automatically is a viable option. I think if you're in a situation where you're not sure if you want to abort or have the baby, even to put it up for adoption, have the baby. I say the only way to abort after the first trimester is with a doctor's approval, the doctor being a psychiatrist saying that the woman was in a sound state of mind.

Because my only argument against abortion is the mental health of everyone involved. If it's after 3 months, I think you run the chance of really fucking with everyone involved.

EDIT: And I should point out that that's my stance, not one that I think my party should look to support.

[Elliott Evans]

if you're irresponsible enough to wait 8 months to get an abortion, you don't deserve to have the privilege.Let's take it one step further and bring Parental Licenses into law.

[TwoStep2888]

Buckle up, everybody, this thread is going to be AWESOME

[MistreatedLewis]

Up until it is fully birthed. But abortions past first two terms almost never happen, so this is really a theoretical and not a practical debate. Just for the record.

[BreakFree27]

shit i meant to vote 3. end of first trimester, for some reason i was thinking end of second trimester.

[GinaNMU]

Up until it is fully birthed. But abortions past first two terms almost never happen, so this is really a theoretical and not a practical debate. Just for the record.

I was going to say something similar. If I was forced to answer specifically, I guess I'd say before the end of the 1st trimester, but again...not really relevant.


And I love you :hug ;)

[thatguymikey2]

Up until it is fully birthed. But abortions past first two terms almost never happen, so this is really a theoretical and not a practical debate. Just for the record.

I thought that in both threads where you said something similar to this it should've been the end of the thread. Nothing further of intellectual value can be added.

[jmudmbphan]

to the people who voted "anytime befoer its birthed" I assume you are okay with late term abortion? leaving the 9 month old babys head inside the mother and then sucking its brains out?

[MistreatedLewis]

to the people who voted "anytime befoer its birthed" I assume you are okay with late term abortion? leaving the 9 month old babys head inside the mother and then sucking its brains out?

I am ok with women having the right to choose to do this, but no women choose to do this unless their life is at stake. Look up the numbers on the percentages of fetuses aborted at nine months.

[dmbinchicago]

to the people who voted "anytime befoer its birthed" I assume you are okay with late term abortion? leaving the 9 month old babys head inside the mother and then sucking its brains out?

That is Partial Birth Abortion, not late term. Not all "Late term" abortions are "Partial birth".

And like MistreatedLewis just said, I don't think there are a lot of instances where a woman suddenly decides after carrying a child for 8.5 months that she just doesn't feel like going through with the birth.

[jmudmbphan]

I am ok with women having the right to choose to do this, but no women choose to do this unless their life is at stake. Look up the numbers on the percentages of fetuses aborted at nine months.


You are okay with a woman who chooses to do this? Whether or not many people choose to do this, is irrelevant. The principle and open door to this remains...andyou see no problem sucking the brains out of baby who is "technically" not born yet....???

[MistreatedLewis]

You are okay with a woman who chooses to do this? Whether or not many people choose to do this, is irrelevant. The principle remains, that yous ee no problem sucking the brains out of baby who is "technically" not born yet....

Yes I am. It's not a baby until it's born. That's what a baby is. A fetus that was born.

[jmudmbphan]

That is Partial Birth Abortion, not late term. Not all "Late term" abortions are "Partial birth".

And like MistreatedLewis just said, I don't think there are a lot of instances where a woman suddenly decides after carrying a child for 8.5 months that she just doesn't feel like going through with the birth.


right but *some* are....i am refering to the some here.

[jmudmbphan]

Yes I am. It's not a baby until it's born. That's what a baby is. A fetus that was born.


Thats ridiculous..I agree with you on most everything, but thats just stupid....Almost worse than the right wingers who would elect bush to a third term if given the choice.

[MistreatedLewis]

Thats ridiculous..I agree with you on most everything, but thats just stupid....Almost worse than the right wingers who would elect bush to a third term if given the choice.

Why is it stupid?

[jmudmbphan]

Using a technicality (if you can even call it that) to determine life and death is stupid. Why do I feel its stupid? Life and death is much more than black and white..and using the technicality of, "oh wait, the heads still inside, its not a baby!! kill it!" shows glaring ignorance and lack of intelligence when handling a very complex matter such as life and death. Things arent black and white in the real world, wanting them to be so in your head is just unintelligent. imo.

[MistreatedLewis]

Using a technicality (if you can even call it that) to determine life and death is stupid. Why do I feel its stupid? Life and death is much more than black and white..and using the technicality of, "oh wait, the heads still inside, its not a baby!! kill it!" shows glaring ignorance and lack of intelligence when handling a very complex matter such as life and death. Things arent black and white in the real world, wanting them to be so in your head is just unintelligent. imo.

and your distinction between life and pre-life is completely arbitrary. Why is nine months any different than eight months any different than seven months etc

[jmudmbphan]

For one, case studies and reserach can show that a baby of X months can live on its own. I wouldn't call that distinction arbitrary.

But we arent talking about 6, 7, 8, or even 9 months. Were talking about a baby that is 75% born except for its head..and then killed. If you really believe its not a "baby" because its head isn't outside the mother, I really dont know what to say...comes across as the the back country west virginia folk who wont vote for obama because his middle name is hussein. On par with them intelligence wise at the very least...

[MistreatedLewis]

For one, case studies and reserach can show that a baby of X months can live on its own. I wouldn't call that distinction arbitrary.

But we arent talking about 6, 7, 8, or even 9 months. Were talking about a baby that is 75% born except for its head..and then killed.

It's not being born naturally, so I don't count it.

[Tomato42]

wheres the option for until they turn 18?

[schmidty622]

There are too many people in the world anyway. We should not only be aborting babys but killing people too.

[jmudmbphan]

It's not being born naturally, so I don't count it.


so if a baby isnt born natural...its not a baby? im not sure what u are saying...

[MistreatedLewis]

so if a baby isnt born natural...its not a baby? im not sure what u are saying...

I define a baby as

a) a fetus that is born naturally

or

b) a fetus that is born as the result of a c-section because the mother wants to have a baby.

[jmudmbphan]

define naturally?

[penn darvis]

There are too many people in the world anyway. We should not only be aborting babys but killing people too.
Fuck yes!

[MistreatedLewis]

define naturally?

natural birth. not a c-section. woman's water breaks, she goes into labor and shoots it out through her vagina.

[jmudmbphan]

natural birth. not a c-section. woman's water breaks, she goes into labor and shoots it out through her vagina.


fair enough. although I think this just cements my belief that you are looking at this entirely too black and white. "It's not a baby because its head isn't out yet" is just ridiculous...I realize the point at issue is that you dont consider it a baby....which is why you feel its koay to kill it...but it seems your entire stance is based off a technicality...if the baby slipped and the head pops out, its suddenly a baby..but if not...then its still a fetus...That position is as moronic as the west virginians i mentioned above, imo.

[Tomato42]

natural birth. not a c-section. woman's water breaks, she goes into labor and shoots it out through her vagina.

why do you think this? what is your logic?

[MistreatedLewis]

fair enough. although I think this just cements my belief that you are looking at this entirely too black and white. "It's not a baby because its head isn't out yet" is just ridiculous...I realize the point at issue is that you dont consider it a baby....which is why you feel its koay to kill it...but it seems your entire stance is based off a technicality...if the baby slipped and the head pops out, its suddenly a baby..but if not...then its still a fetus...That position is as moronic as the west virginians i mentioned above, imo.

no it isn't. if it the baby slips out during the abortion, it's still not a baby, unless the mother wanted it to be born.

[MistreatedLewis]

why do you think this? what is your logic?

that's the accepted definition of a natural birth, it's not my definition

[Tomato42]

that's the accepted definition of a natural birth, it's not my definition

im referring to your stance that its okay to kill an unborn baby unless these are the circumstances

[MistreatedLewis]

im referring to your stance that its okay to kill an unborn baby unless these are the circumstances

IMO there's no such thing as an unborn baby. Doesn't exist.

[jmudmbphan]

no it isn't. if it the baby slips out during the abortion, it's still not a baby, unless the mother wanted it to be born.


a baby isnt a baby unless the mother wanted it to be born? are you kidding me?

[thom hudson]

9pm. Any later than that is just cruel.

[MistreatedLewis]

a baby isnt a baby unless the mother wanted it to be born? are you kidding me?

or unless it's naturally born. there's nothing contradictory in that position. and your definitions of baby are just as arbitrary.

[Tomato42]

IMO there's no such thing as an unborn baby. Doesn't exist.

okay same question sub in what ever term you want for unborn baby

and to address that real quick.. seams like a justification in your own mind/conscious by saying something absurd like that.. a baby that has not came out of the womb yet, hmm what can we call it? one logical term would be unborn baby, its not political. but you refuse to call it that so it makes you feel better because your dehumanizing him or her in your own psyche

[MistreatedLewis]

okay same question sub in what ever term you want for unborn baby

and to address that real quick.. seams like a justification in your own mind/conscious by saying something absurd like that.. a baby that has not came out of the womb yet, hmm what can we call it? one logical term would be unborn baby, its not political. but you refuse to call it that so it makes you feel better because your dehumanizing him or her in your own psyche

Because I value the right of a woman in the world to do what she wants with her own body more than I value the protection of an unborn fetus in her body that has never experienced the world.

[Tomato42]

you act like wile passing through the vag we get coated in some magical fluid that transforms us and we evolve into 'baby' like pokemon or something lol

[MistreatedLewis]

you act like wile passing through the vag we get coated in some magical fluid that transforms us and we evolve into 'baby' like pokemon or something lol

I happen to think the birth of a baby is an amazing moment. Not "magical" - I don't believe in magic. But an amazing moment. And I consider the day I was born the year I was born to be the beginning of my life. That's why I celebrate it every year actually. I've never once celebrated my conception day.

[john baptiste]

to the people who voted "anytime befoer its birthed" I assume you are okay with late term abortion? leaving the 9 month old babys head inside the mother and then sucking its brains out?
with a straw?

[jmudmbphan]

or unless it's naturally born. there's nothing contradictory in that position. and your definitions of baby are just as arbitrary.



baby, can live outside the mother. thast not arbitrary.

teh fact you base life and death on a technicality, is ignorant and seems to show you only have the ability to look at things in black and white. a higher level of thinking is far from black and white.

[Tomato42]

i just wanted to reassure myself that your just ignorant and not evil again before i raged out on you guys every time i see your name on here (dmbinchicago, Elliott Evans, MistreatedLewis, TwoStep2888) if you understood what you were saying i wouldnt be able to be civil with you guys

[MistreatedLewis]

baby, can live outside the mother. thast not arbitrary.

teh fact you base life and death on a technicality, is ignorant and seems to show you only have the ability to look at things in black and white. a higher level of thinking is far from black and white.

Ok, well, I don't think it's black and white and I don't think it's ignorant, so we'll agree to disagree. You also have exactly no idea what day, hour, minute, or second a fetus can live outside the mother, so it IS arbitrary.

[Tomato42]

im done with this but one more thing.. you do realize that you can take a baby out of the womb prior to birth and it can survive and be walking around today, so since they were never born your way, i can just murder them in the street?

[MistreatedLewis]

i just wanted to reassure myself that your just ignorant and not evil again before i raged out on you guys every time i see your name on here (dmbinchicago, Elliott Evans, MistreatedLewis, TwoStep2888) if you understood what you were saying i wouldnt be able to be civil with you guys

I'm not ignorant nor am I evil.

[Tomato42]

if you knew you were ignorant you would cease to be so

[MistreatedLewis]

im done with this but one more thing.. you do realize that you can take a baby out of the womb prior to birth and it can survive and be walking around today, so since they were never born your way, i can just murder them in the street?

No you can't. You can't take a baby out of the womb without the mother's permission, at least her tacit permission. And if the mother gives her permission, I consider it a baby, born, with full rights.

[MistreatedLewis]

if you knew you were ignorant you would cease to be so

That's true. Which is why I chose to be a philosopher at an elite school so I could continually think and be less ignorant.

[Tomato42]

No you can't. You can't take a baby out of the womb without the mother's permission, at least her tacit permission. And if the mother gives her permission, I consider it a baby, born, with full rights.

:lol you just said that the actual natural birth is the only way you become a baby

[jmudmbphan]

Ok, well, I don't think it's black and white and I don't think it's ignorant, so we'll agree to disagree. You also have exactly no idea what day, hour, minute, or second a fetus can live outside the mother, so it IS arbitrary.


absolute truths aren't neccessary for many things..this being one..

the fact you are arguing since there isnt an absolute truth, I can't have a distinct reason, is ridiculous. seriously dude, this is a poor way to argue. but agree to disagree.

[Tomato42]

That's true. Which is why I chose to be a philosopher at an elite school so I could continually think and be less ignorant.

doesnt seem to be working :D

[MistreatedLewis]

:lol you just said that the actual natural birth is the only way you become a baby

Wow. No I didn't. I will quote my post which I guess you decided not to read. Hang on.

[MistreatedLewis]

I define a baby as

a) a fetus that is born naturally

or

b) a fetus that is born as the result of a c-section because the mother wants to have a baby.

This post, tomato.

[Tomato42]

so how bout them dave matthews banders.. what u think theyre gona open with tonight?

[thestand]

This debate is solely a debate of semantics, and if people continue to look at it like that, it's not going to change. It's the same thing as "estate tax" v "death tax", only now it's "fetus" v "unborn baby". It's a completely unnecessary addition of emotion on an issue that could otherwise be discussed sensibly.

[MistreatedLewis]

absolute truths aren't neccessary for many things..this being one..

the fact you are arguing since there isnt an absolute truth, I can't have a distinct reason, is ridiculous. seriously dude, this is a poor way to argue. but agree to disagree.

So how are you going to decide if an abortion is legal or illegal if you have to figure out whether or not the fetus could live outside the woman's body first?

[MistreatedLewis]

This debate is solely a debate of semantics, and if people continue to look at it like that, it's not going to change. It's the same thing as "estate tax" v "death tax", only now it's "fetus" v "unborn baby". It's a completely unnecessary addition of emotion on an issue that could otherwise be discussed sensibly.

How would you discuss it?

[Tomato42]

This post, tomato.

i must have misread in my furious multi-thread rant :D

[Tomato42]

This debate is solely a debate of semantics, and if people continue to look at it like that, it's not going to change. It's the same thing as "estate tax" v "death tax", only now it's "fetus" v "unborn baby". It's a completely unnecessary addition of emotion on an issue that could otherwise be discussed sensibly.

like i said before, call it what you want.. it makes no difference to me, but it seems to matter very much to people who are pro-choice [to end human life] and especially those of you who have done so.

[MistreatedLewis]

like i said before, call it what you want.. it makes no difference to me, but it seems to matter very much to people who are pro-choice [to end human life] and especially those of you who have done so.

Doesn't matter to me if it's just semantics. Call it an unborn baby if you wish. It's still far less valuable to me than the woman who is carrying it until it meets one of my two requirements. Then it is of equal value.

[thestand]

How would you discuss it?I would rather have a religion v science debate than I would "well, it's a BABY" v "no, it's a collection of cells." Because in the latter, even if you ever agree on terms, the debate on the actual issue hasn't moved.

It was more of an overall statement, not related necessarily to any post.

[hylidaea]

From conception to the 16th birthday.

[jmudmbphan]

So how are you going to decide if an abortion is legal or illegal if you have to figure out whether or not the fetus could live outside the woman's body first?


the medical community will weigh in, deteremine (in their best effort and judgement) how old a fetus has to be to live outside the womb and settle on that. there are plenty of things that have standards and limits for that have no absolute truth attached to them.

[MistreatedLewis]

I would rather have a religion v science debate than I would "well, it's a BABY" v "no, it's a collection of cells." Because in the latter, even if you ever agree on terms, the debate on the actual issue hasn't moved.

It was more of an overall statement, not related necessarily to any post.

I'm not sure you would win the scientific debate. What's better about the conceptual debate is that I never have to contradict myself, or a fact.

[thestand]

like i said before, call it what you want.. it makes no difference to me, but it seems to matter very much to people who are pro-choice [to end human life] and especially those of you who have done so.

:lol You can't say you don't care, and then you make an addendum to point out that abortion is the ending of a life. That is the definition of debating semantics.

[MistreatedLewis]

the medical community will weigh in, deteremine (in their best effort and judgement) how old a fetus has to be to live outside the womb and settle on that. there are plenty of things that have standards and limits for that have no absolute truth attached to them.

That sounds terribly dangerous to me. In my opinion, the only person deciding what to do with something in a woman's body is the woman. Not the medical community.

[jmudmbphan]

I would rather have a religion v science debate than I would "well, it's a BABY" v "no, it's a collection of cells." Because in the latter, even if you ever agree on terms, the debate on the actual issue hasn't moved.

It was more of an overall statement, not related necessarily to any post.


I would rather have a chocolate milkshake vs. 1978 nba draft recap debate.

[Garrettaj]

That's true. Which is why I chose to be a philosopher at an elite school so I could continually think and be less ignorant.

On a side note, this is not an exact quote but its the gist of it. "ignorance never causes error. It's not what you don't know, but what you think you know that causes error." -rousseau

[jmudmbphan]

That sounds terribly dangerous to me. In my opinion, the only person deciding what to do with something in a woman's body is the woman. Not the medical community.


Im not saying outlaw abortion. Im saying cut it off at a certain limit..UNLESS life dangering circumstances come up......


After all, the medical community will be the ones deciding what is life dangering, whcih in turn helps a woman decide to get an abortion in the first place, in many instances...double edged sword, no?

[MistreatedLewis]

On a side note, this is not an exact quote but its the gist of it. "ignorance never causes error. It's not what you don't know, but what you think you know that causes error." -rousseau

Thinking you know something you don't know is ignorance.

[MistreatedLewis]

Im not saying outlaw abortion. Im saying cut it off at a certain limit..UNLESS life dangering circumstances come up......


After all, the medical community will be the ones deciding what is life dangering, whcih in turn helps a woman decide to get an abortion in the first place, in many instances...double edged sword, no?

And I'm disagreeing with you. I don't want doctors arbitrarily deciding when a woman is entitled to an abortion and when she is not. The only person who I want making that decision is the individual woman. And the only time I want her losing that right is when she naturally birthes the baby or when she decides to have a c-section.

[jmudmbphan]

And I'm disagreeing with you. I don't want doctors arbitrarily deciding when a woman is entitled to an abortion and when she is not. The only person who I want making that decision is the individual woman. And the only time I want her losing that right is when she naturally birthes the baby or when she decides to have a c-section.

you keep saying arbitrarily deciding....im not sur why..

a standard could be set and maintained.....

[MistreatedLewis]

you keep saying arbitrarily deciding....im not sur why..

a standard could be set and maintained.....

The standard would be arbitrarily chosen. I don't believe in a "doctor's right to choose." I believe in a "woman's right to choose."

[jmudmbphan]

Yes, like ive said..most things in our lives are "abritrary" being absolute truths aren't abound. Arguing against a possible decision because it doesnt have an asbolute truth tied to it is quite an amateur way to make an argument and would get you laughed out of any courtroom.

[MistreatedLewis]

Yes, like ive said..most things in our lives are "abritrary" being absolute truths aren't abound. Arguing against a possible decision because it doesnt have an asbolute truth tied to it is quite an amateur way to make an argument and would get you laughed out of any courtroom.

Ok. And I am arguing that I believe a woman has a right to choose what to do with her own body and what is biologically inside of it, rather than a panel of doctors. I think a lot of women - and a lot of men - would appreciate that argument.

[jmudmbphan]

Ok. And I am arguing that I believe a woman has a right to choose what to do with her own body and what is biologically inside of it, rather than a panel of doctors. I think a lot of women - and a lot of men - would appreciate that argument.

Right I get what our basic differences on the matter are - you've reiterated this a couple times.

I also get that you keep bringing up the lack of an absolute truth as reason not to impose a standard.

I was simply pointing out what a poor argumentation style this is.

[MistreatedLewis]

Right I get what our basic differences on the matter are - you've reiterated this a couple times.

I also get that you keep bringing up the lack of an absolute truth as reason not to impose a standard.

I was simply pointing out what a poor argumentation style this is.

Okay. But speaking of argumentation style, you certainly haven't made any points that show that my position is self-contradictory or even that yours is any morally superior, so I don't see what your arguing style has accomplished either.

[jmudmbphan]

First, I am not arguing moral superiority, perhaps thats why I havent made any points for it.

Second, your position doesnt have to be self-contradictory to be ignorant. Self contradiction is sufficient for ignorance, however, not solely neccessary.

I really don't have a point to prove. Simply asserting my opinion on the following..
1. Looking at highly complicated subject matter in black and white is quite ignorant and unintelligent. (we disagree about the black and whiteness)
2. A medically agreed upon standard would suffice a gov't "abortion limit", so to speak. (you keep saying arbitrary, not sure why)
3. Arguing aginst something because it doesnt have an absolute truth is moronic. (I think you have silently agreed upon this with me, at least in your head)

[MistreatedLewis]

First, I am not arguing moral superiority, perhaps thats why I havent made any points for it.

Second, your position doesnt have to be self-contradictory to be ignorant, imo.

I really don't have a point to prove. Simply asserting my opinion on the following..
1. Looking at highly complicated subject matter in black and white is quite ignorant and unintelligent.
2. A medically agreed upon standard would suffice a gov't "abortion limit", so to speak.
3. Arguing aginst something because it doesnt have an absolute truth is moronic.

Ok. Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. And I'm sticking with mine that individual women and not teams of doctors should have control over their bodies at 3 days, 1 month, 5 months, 8.5 months, and even 9 months up to the point natural birth or a c-section with the intent of having the baby until someone gives me a good reason to change my mind, by showing me it's self-contradictory or by showing me that another position is morally superior.

*edit* in other words, you've given me no good reason why an "abortion limit" is a desirable thing. IMO, it's a very UNdesirable thing.

[jmudmbphan]

Ok. Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. And I'm sticking with mine that individual women and not teams of doctors should have control over their bodies at 3 days, 1 month, 5 months, 8.5 months, and even 9 months up to the point natural birth or a c-section with the intent of having the baby until someone gives me a good reason to change my mind, by showing me it's self-contradictory or by showing me that another position is morally superior.

the fact a baby is 75% of the way out and would completely live on its own had its brains not been sucked out isn't morally superior enough for you?

[MistreatedLewis]

the fact a baby is 75% of the way out and would completely live on its own had its brains not been sucked out isn't morally superior enough for you?

No, actually it's not, and I've already said so. I don't care if it can live on it's own or not. A slug can live on its own too.

[jmudmbphan]

No, actually it's not, and I've already said so.


Then I doubt few things, if anything will..especially considering your high dependence upon absolute truths when making up your mind.

[MistreatedLewis]

Then I doubt few things, if anything will..especially considering your high dependence upon absolute truths when making up your mind.

I don't depend on absolute truths for anything. The only time I would care about an absolute truth is when someone proves to me that there is one, in which case I would be forced to assent to it. What you needed to do in this case was
a) show me that my position was self contradictory, and you failed OR
b) convince me that there was a morally superior position to my position, and you failed. Absolute truths had nothing to do with it, other than reminding you that your own points were NOT absolute truths when you occasionally seemed to be acting like they were.

[jmudmbphan]

agree to disagree

[MistreatedLewis]

agree to disagree

absolutely

[Garrettaj]

This is sort of a new angle on the topic, but what about the rights of the father. One of the local radio stations did a story on fathers who wanted to have their children but the mother aborted the baby anyway (obviously this does not apply to absentee dads). Do you guys think the father of the baby should have any say? Not projecting an opinion at this point, just wanted to see what people think.

[MistreatedLewis]

This is sort of a new angle on the topic, but what about the rights of the father. One of the local radio stations did a story on fathers who wanted to have their children but the mother aborted the baby anyway (obviously this does not apply to absentee dads). Do you guys think the father of the baby should have any say? Not projecting an opinion at this point, just wanted to see what people think.

Yeah I don't believe the father has any rights until the baby is born.

:)

[il bacio dolce]

They're done up to 2 months. /thread

[jmudmbphan]

theres really no way to give the father say, if the mother doesnt want it.

both parties will never be appeased...ideally yes, he should have equal say, but this isnt an ideal world.

[Garrettaj]

theres really no way to give the father say, if the mother doesnt want it.

both parties will never be appeased...ideally yes, he should have equal say, but this isnt an ideal world.

Sort of how I feel too. Just sort of a shitty situation for those fathers, I guess there has been enough dick absentee dads to make up for it

[Garrettaj]

Yeah I don't believe the father has any rights until the baby is born.

:)

Thats is what I thought you would say. That is consistent with your other points, so I have no problem with that

[MistreatedLewis]

Sort of how I feel too. Just sort of a shitty situation for those fathers, I guess there has been enough dick absentee dads to make up for it

:thumbsup My advice to dad's wanting a baby is to only fuck women who they trust enough to know they definitely want a baby :thumbsup

[penn darvis]

Sort of how I feel too. Just sort of a shitty situation for those fathers, I guess there has been enough dick absentee dads to make up for it
Kind of odd that if a guy doesn't want a child, he's a deadbeat, while if a woman doesn't want one, she's "pro-choice."

[Garrettaj]

Kind of odd that if a guy doesn't want a child, he's a deadbeat, while if a woman doesn't want one, she's "pro-choice."

Oh I agree it's a hypocritical stance, I just am not sure anything can be done about it. I guess I would say if the father can prove he can provide a suitable environment to raise a child and he wants to have it, then the women should sack up and have it. She was part of the decision making process that led to the baby too

[MistreatedLewis]

Kind of odd that if a guy doesn't want a child, he's a deadbeat, while if a woman doesn't want one, she's "pro-choice."

Kind of odd that women can get pregnant and men can't, dontcha think?

I mean, if a man really wanted to have a kid that bad, wouldn't he lock himself up in lab and figure out how to make his body produce one, or die trying?

[TwoStep2888]

Kind of odd that if a guy doesn't want a child, he's a deadbeat, while if a woman doesn't want one, she's "pro-choice."

Yeah, nature's cruel like that.

[MistreatedLewis]

Yeah, nature's cruel like that.

:thumbsup

[defcon]

Didn't Cartman's mother try to get a 21st Trimester Abortion?

[Garrettaj]

Kind of odd that women can get pregnant and men can't, dontcha think?

I mean, if a man really wanted to have a kid that bad, wouldn't he lock himself up in lab and figure out how to make his body produce one, or die trying?

I am not against abortion, for many reasons but one of them being not making kids grow up in shitty environments. Stanford did a study several years ago about why the crime rate went down in southern california, and their consensus was that abortion being legal played a huge role, less kids were growing up with parents who didn't want them and thus less kids were falling into gangs and such. I think there is something to say for that. But anyways obviously many pregnancies are accidents, but many people still welcome them and want them. If one parent really wants the child and can provide a good environment it just sucks that they can be told no. That baby is just as much part of the father, in a genetical sense, as the mother

but i agree. nature is cruel

[MistreatedLewis]

I am not against abortion, for many reasons but one of them being not making kids grow up in shitty environments. Stanford did a study several years ago about why the crime rate went down in southern california, and their consensus was that abortion being legal played a huge role, less kids were growing up with parents who didn't want them and thus less kids were falling into gangs and such. I think there is something to say for that. But anyways obviously many pregnancies are accidents, but many people still welcome them and want them. If one parent really wants the child and can provide a good environment it just sucks that they can be told no. That baby is just as much part of the father, in a genetical sense, as the mother

I know. And for that reason it's super important for a man to know where he is sticking his cock.

[Garrettaj]

I know. And for that reason it's super important for a man to know where he is sticking his cock.

word. in the words of Turtle just go catch a beat

[il bacio dolce]

I know. And for that reason it's super important for a man to know where he is sticking his cock.

:lol


I'm different... if I had an unplanned pregnancy with someone I respected (because if we're having sex, we have a mutual respect for one another) I would have it but I would not force them to pay if they couldn't. My current SO is a full time student. He has tons of debt. I could support a child on my income easily. (Hm. It occurs to me that my mother raised four kids on roughly what I make annually)

[kydmb99]

No, actually it's not, and I've already said so. I don't care if it can live on it's own or not. A slug can live on its own too.

That's not really a relevant comparison IMO...

[il bacio dolce]

I do think everyone should have an understanding of what happens week by week starting from conception. What forms and starts functioning on what day. Does anybody know what day the heart starts beating? What week it starts to practice breathing? How early a baby can survive outside it's mother? We use these things as guide posts but don't know WHEN they happen. I think the polls would be different.

[Garrettaj]

I do think everyone should have an understanding of what happens week by week starting from conception. What forms and starts functioning on what day. Does anybody know what day the heart starts beating? What week it starts to practice breathing? How early a baby can survive outside it's mother? We use these things as guide posts but don't know WHEN they happen. I think the polls would be different.

Agreed. I would say no abortions after the first trimester

[penn darvis]

Kind of odd that women can get pregnant and men can't, dontcha think?

I mean, if a man really wanted to have a kid that bad, wouldn't he lock himself up in lab and figure out how to make his body produce one, or die trying?
Not really that odd. Evolution and all that shit.

My point being that if we're going to give the woman the sole right to determine whether or not a fetus is allowed to develop into a child, we should at least give the man the right to not support it.

[penn darvis]

Yeah, nature's cruel like that.
Nature makes no judgements.

[MistreatedLewis]

Not really that odd. Evolution and all that shit.

My point being that if we're going to give the woman the sole right to determine whether or not a fetus is allowed to develop into a child, we should at least give the man the right to not support it.

I understand your point, and I disagree with it.

[TwoStep2888]

Nature makes no judgements.

Directly, no. However, by making women the sole carrier of children, and making men mere sperm dispensers, evolution essentially told men that the lives and deaths of fetuses weren't any of their business.

[penn darvis]

I understand your point, and I disagree with it.
Any reason?

[Elliott Evans]

Not really that odd. Evolution and all that shit.

My point being that if we're going to give the woman the sole right to determine whether or not a fetus is allowed to develop into a child, we should at least give the man the right to not support it.Exactly.

Because last time I checked, it takes a woman and a man to make a baby.

(Come to think of it, I believe we have some closet feminists/feminist apologists here.)

[MistreatedLewis]

Any reason?

Do I need one. Is someone threatening to change the law that I'm not aware of? I'm not trying to change your mind about anything.

[penn darvis]

Directly, no. However, by making women the sole carrier of children, and making men mere sperm dispensers, evolution essentially told men that the lives and deaths of fetuses weren't any of their business.
That's a terrible argument. Nature is random and arbitrary. There are no lessons to be gleaned from the way things evolved.

[MistreatedLewis]

Exactly.

Because last time I checked, it takes a woman and a man to make a baby.

(Come to think of it, I believe we have some closet feminists/feminist apologists here.)

And it takes a woman and a man to support a child.

But it only takes a woman to carry a fetus.

/thread.

[Elliott Evans]

However, by making women the sole carrier of children, and making men mere sperm dispensers, evolution essentially told men that the lives and deaths of fetuses weren't any of their business.Damn, that's some cold shit.

[penn darvis]

Do I need one. Is someone threatening to change the law that I'm not aware of? I'm not trying to change your mind about anything.
Nope, just curious. For logic's sake.

[penn darvis]

And it takes a woman and a man to support a child.

But it only takes a woman to carry a fetus.

/thread.

Supporters of gay marriage would say otherwise.

[MistreatedLewis]

Nope, just curious. For logic's sake.

No, I just like women better than men, so when I can help them out and fuck men over, I try to go for it.

:)

[MistreatedLewis]

Supporters of gay marriage would say otherwise.

touche. It takes two people to support a child. A single parent trying to raise a child should get goverment support, or the support of a biological father.

[TwoStep2888]

That's a terrible argument. Nature is random and arbitrary. There are no lessons to be gleaned from the way things evolved.

Again, not directly, but men don't carry fetuses, so right do they have?

Damn, that's some cold shit.

Yes, it is.

[Elliott Evans]

But it only takes a woman to carry a fetus.So?

I just don't think it's as cut and dry as a lot of you think.

I think a baby should ideally be born from the loving union of a man and a woman working together to carefully and healthily bring him or her into this world. And if, after conception, the only thing the man can do is give moral support and buy the ice cream and pickles, that's pretty damn important. If anything, it will put his partner at ease, knowing that, despite the limited physical duties required by him, the moral responsibility is assured and provided.

[penn darvis]

Again, not directly, but men don't carry fetuses, so right do they have?



Yes, it is.
Well, nature gave neither men nor women the right to do anything to a fetus.

[TwoStep2888]

Well, nature gave neither men nor women the right to do anything to a fetus.

This is true. Natural rights are nonexistent. Society, however, has given women the right to do as they wish with their bodies, including anything living inside of them, and rightfully so, imo.

[DMBBeav]

I don't know what I think is the right answer for the poll, but I do know partial-birth abortions are barbaric and inhumane.

As I think that, I understand where people come from in being Pro-Life.

However, I also hold the belief that an abortion 1 month in is not murder.

I am a walking contradiction on this issue.

[Elliott Evans]

Well, nature gave neither men nor women the right to do anything to a fetus.

This is one thing which bothers me about this debate. It's all about the man and the woman. What about the living thing growing inside the woman? So it doesn't even have the intelligence of an infant? Are we so removed from empathy that we would consign a fetus to the level of a insect? After all, what does a caterpillar grow into?

[TwoStep2888]

This is one thing which bothers me about this debate. It's all about the man and the woman. What about the living thing growing inside the woman? So it doesn't even have the intelligence of an infant? Are we so removed from empathy that we would consign a fetus to the level of a insect? After all, what does a caterpillar grow into?

A potentially becoming B in the future does not make A B in the present. Until A finally becomes B, it is still just A, and is afforded only the rights of A.

[il bacio dolce]

I don't know what I think is the right answer for the poll, but I do know partial-birth abortions are barbaric and inhumane.

As I think that, I understand where people come from in being Pro-Life.

However, I also hold the belief that an abortion 1 month in is not murder.

I am a walking contradiction on this issue.

1 month in there is an embryo with no cardiac activity. It is, as they say, a clump of cells, not a life.

[DMBBeav]

1 month in there is an embryo with no cardiac activity. It is, as they say, a clump of cells, not a life.

So you have the beginning of life with a heart?

I can agree to that. I just know 9 month aborition is barbaric. A one month abortion can be seen as a mature decision to make.

[il bacio dolce]

So you have the beginning of life with a heart?

I can agree to that. I just know 9 month aborition is barbaric. A one month abortion can be seen as a mature decision to make.

Yeah one month = as soon as you realize you're missing something and piss on a stick. That's how quick you want to take care of it. If you aren't decisive enought to do it that soon, maybe you don't want to do it.

But I'm on my second glass of wine, so feel free to disregard all post from this point on, anywhere in the forum. They're gonna start being a bit more blunt.

[Elliott Evans]

State Rep. proposes voluntary sterilization for poor

BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - Blood pressure is rising in the public debate over a plan by one Louisiana representative offering what some might call a bizarre way to fight poverty.

Representative John LaBruzzo of Metairie wants to pay poor people to get sterilized and reward rich people for having children. His proposal is already fueling heated debate.

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=9068198&nav=0RY5

[TwoStep2888]

State Rep. proposes voluntary sterilization for poor

BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - Blood pressure is rising in the public debate over a plan by one Louisiana representative offering what some might call a bizarre way to fight poverty.

Representative John LaBruzzo of Metairie wants to pay poor people to get sterilized and reward rich people for having children. His proposal is already fueling heated debate.

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=9068198&nav=0RY5

Shotgun is going to love this.

[bothedmbfan]

When said fetus is 35 years old.

[PerfectStorm]

By week 5 a heartbeat has started. I can understand waiting a few more weeks after that point but in my opinion anything after that 5 week mark is just plain murder. But like I said, that's just my opinion.

[PerfectStorm]

touche. It takes two people to support a child. A single parent trying to raise a child should get goverment support, or the support of a biological father.

Why do you think that a woman (or man) who is raising a child on their own deserves government support? I am just curious as to your logic behind that.

[il bacio dolce]

They don't always need it. I'd rather not have support from the government, for anything. :P

[bothedmbfan]

Hippy.

[jmudmbphan]

They don't always need it. I'd rather not have support from the government, for anything. :P


seriously?


fuck public schools, paved roads, and the police!! yahhh!!!! fuck em!!!

[Strangely Brown]

2008

[TwoStep2888]

2008

lolwut?

[Tomato42]

:lol You can't say you don't care, and then you make an addendum to point out that abortion is the ending of a life. That is the definition of debating semantics.

i dont think anyone disputes that abortion is ending a human life.. or am i wrong? if you remember from the abortion thread i labeled it as pro choice [to kill babies] so i thought pro choice [to end a human life] would be something that wouldnt be disputed. like i said call it killing a baby, aborting a fetus, whatever you want, its still ending a human life.. or you disagree with that? if so how?

[VanHorneDog]

before she has sex.

just go on the Pill... fuck'n A if you dont want kids do it.

that said, i dont know thats up to the mother, doctor and god. so who am i to legislate that shit.

[MistreatedLewis]

i dont think anyone disputes that abortion is ending a human life.. or am i wrong? if you remember from the abortion thread i labeled it as pro choice [to kill babies] so i thought pro choice [to end a human life] would be something that wouldnt be disputed. like i said call it killing a baby, aborting a fetus, whatever you want, its still ending a human life.. or you disagree with that? if so how?

If you mean a human life biologically than yes.
But philosophically/phenomenologically, I believe there's more to being a human being / person / Dasein than having human dna.

[marco j]

Buckle up, everybody, this thread is going to be AWESOME

:lol:thumbsup

[il bacio dolce]

before she has sex.

just go on the Pill... fuck'n A if you dont want kids do it.

that said, i dont know thats up to the mother, doctor and god. so who am i to legislate that shit.

The pills have side effects. My sister got blood clots, I had difficulty wearing contact lenses because of the pill, both are side effects in the information that comes with the pills. Plus it's just hard to remember to take that pill daily.

That said, I'm shopping for new glasses today... :rolleyes

[chr35919]

The pills have side effects. My sister got blood clots, I had difficulty wearing contact lenses because of the pill, both are side effects in the information that comes with the pills. Plus it's just hard to remember to take that pill daily.

That said, I'm shopping for new glasses today... :rolleyesfor some people. some people have zero side effects and can remember to take it every day.