How good is Kobe historically

[1eyed_jack]

My friends and I had this discussion the other day. We all know Kobe is a great player, but where do you rank him historically? Where he is right now, not "if" this or "if" that. Right now how will his legacy be?

here are some notes on his career.

07-08 NBA MVP

For his career he is averaging 25 ppg, 4.6 assists, 5.3 rebounds and 1.5 steals.

in 05-06 averaged 35.4 ppg. last person to average over 35 was MJ in 86-87 and only MJ, Wilt and Rick Barry have averaged that many.

currently ranks 21st in all-time scoring

scored 81 points in a game, second only to wilt's 100.

has dropped over 50 17 times and topped 60 4 times

10-time all-star, 2-time all-star MVP

All-NBA first team 6 times

All-NBA defensive 1st team 6 times

[kittensXLI]

**add

3 time NBA Champion

appeared in the NBA Finals 5 times

[rconverse]

Needs to win without Shaq to reall be elite. I'd still say top 10 without though.

[smeritt]

How could he not be in the top 100?

[rconverse]

Who the fuck is being a douche and voted not in the top 100? Srsly, that's ridiculous.

[1eyed_jack]

**add

3 time NBA Champion

appeared in the NBA Finals 5 times


yeah i just remembered i didn't put that in :lol oops

[devilandthelord]

Top 20 players of all time.
Higher if he can get another title without Shaq. But that won't happen because the Cavs are taking over.

[BotheDMBFan]

I have him top 5, because I assume he will win another one without Shaq.

[kittensXLI]

Top 20 players of all time.
Higher if he can get another title without Shaq. But that won't happen because the Cavs are taking over.
:lol:lol

[rickyh24]

Top 10 easily.

[kittensXLI]

spinoff time

[rickyh24]

1. Larry Bird
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Paul Pierce
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dino Radja
9. Ray Allen
10. Dennis Johnson




there..

[malarks26]

Top 10, no higher.

[devilandthelord]

1. Larry Bird
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Paul Pierce
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dino Radja
9. Ray Allen
10. Dennis Johnson




there..

:lol nice!

Oh and, you're a ridiculous person.

[cpxc.]

top 22

[rickyh24]

:lol nice!

Oh and, you're a ridiculous person.

:lol

[kittensXLI]

top 15 easily; probably top 10 too.

[jimibadfish]

Probably top 15. Too many guys go ahead of him. Not quite top ten. If/when he breaks into the top 10 on the all-time scoring list (seeing as how offensively that's what he does,) I could consider him top ten because of his defense. Also, it would help if he didn't need two 7 footers or one Shaq to win a title.

[jimibadfish]

My friends and I had this discussion the other day. We all know Kobe is a great player, but where do you rank him historically? Where he is right now, not "if" this or "if" that. Right now how will his legacy be?

here are some notes on his career.

07-08 NBA MVP

For his career he is averaging 25 ppg, 4.6 assists, 5.3 rebounds and 1.5 steals.

in 05-06 averaged 35.4 ppg. last person to average over 35 was MJ in 86-87 and only MJ, Wilt and Rick Barry have averaged that many.

currently ranks 21st in all-time scoring

scored 81 points in a game, second only to wilt's 100.

has dropped over 50 17 times and topped 60 4 times

10-time all-star, 2-time all-star MVP

All-NBA first team 6 times

All-NBA defensive 1st team 6 times

You gonna vote or what?

[Bafugama]

I voted top 25, just because there isn't a top 15 option. He's incredible, and he's very historically relevant, but I don't know if he's slipped into the top 10 yet. He's still relatively young though, and given another 5-7 years of close to what hes doing now he'll go down as a top 5 player of all time. Especially if he can win another championship. If he can win 2 or 3 more championships and continues on with what he's doing now he'll be up there in the same discussion with MJ, Magic, Wilt & Russell.

[pathetic]

easily top 10, maybe top 5.

[william.hosking]

As of 1/14/09, he's Top 10 All-Time

[Nick@Night]

And to think all it took the Lakers to get him was Vlade Divac.

[Lee3691]

Disclosure: Laker Fan

Right now, Top 20, wins a title as the main guy would bump him up to the 2nd best shooting guard in NBA History

Top Centers (in order) Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone

Top PFs Duncan, Malone, Barkley

Top SFs Bird (even though he was really a power forward), Dr J, Baylor, LeBron

Top SGs Jordan, West, Kobe, Drexler, Havelceck

Top PGs Magic, Oscar, Isiah, Stockton, Cousy

[dsmith45]

1. Larry Bird
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Paul Pierce
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dino Radja
9. Ray Allen
10. Dennis Johnson




there..

first off, there's no #6...

second, there's no michael jordan...

[neumdogg]

1. Larry Bird
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Paul Pierce
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dino Radja
9. Ray Allen
10. Dennis Johnson




there..
And I just puked in my mouth.

This top 10 is better than your top 10:

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem
4. Jerry West
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Eldin Campbell
7. Nick Van Exel
8. Rick Fox
9. Glen Rice
10. Kwame Brown

[neumdogg]

Actually, I voted top 5 because I'm a Lakers fan, but honestly, I'd say top 10.

[kittensXLI]

Rick Fox ftw.

[Nick@Night]

The fact he tried to be a rapper and came out with a song called "Thug Poet", he should be penalized.

[swordo84]

He'll be top 5 by the time he retires.

--Colin

[Rodey]

As of right now he's Top 50 for sure.

No way in hell he's Top 10 or Top 5. I don't even know how you could justify that.

[jimibadfish]

As of right now he's Top 50 for sure.

No way in hell he's Top 10 or Top 5. I don't even know how you could justify that.

By not knowing anything about the history of the NBA. How can a guy who's game is to score be a top ten player when they aren't top ten in career points?

I'd say he's cracking the top 15 because he's an amazing defender, but no higher.

[Rodey]

By not knowing anything about the history of the NBA. How can a guy who's game is to score be a top ten player when they aren't top ten in career points?

I'd say he's cracking the top 15 because he's an amazing defender, but no higher.

I voted Top 50, but I just realized that's probably a little low. I'd say he's a Top 25 player of All-Time, but anyone who tries to make an argument for him being Top 10 or Top 5 is just off their rocker.

[thedrumster12]

basketball is a team game, Kobe doesn't play team basketball. Top 25 though based on sheer ability.

[devilandthelord]

He's great at raping!

[neumdogg]

basketball is a team game, Kobe doesn't play team basketball. Top 25 though based on sheer ability.
Have you watched the Lakers play in the last 3 years?

[TheTallOne]

Someone beat me to the "how's my ass taste" tag.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I voted top 25, just because there isn't a top 15 option. He's incredible, and he's very historically relevant, but I don't know if he's slipped into the top 10 yet. He's still relatively young though, and given another 5-7 years of close to what hes doing now he'll go down as a top 5 player of all time. Especially if he can win another championship. If he can win 2 or 3 more championships and continues on with what he's doing now he'll be up there in the same discussion with MJ, Magic, Wilt & Russell.
Very well put. Personally, I voted Top 10 but I agree with you that Top 15 is more accurate. The problem for both Jerry West & Elgin Baylor is that they always came up short on the championships. So, Kobe passes them. He's already a better Laker than Shaq, so that leaves Kareem, Magic, & Wilt. Not bad company.
And to think all it took the Lakers to get him was Vlade Divac.

Jerry West is/was a genius.

[gonz085]

even if he wins another title in the next few years people will make a case that he had two seven footers (as some idiot already alluded too) and a really good team around him which is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard in my life. people forget jordan had a pretty awesome cast around him too.

[BustedStuff87]

I hear he's pretty fly with the ladies in Colorado. Anyone else here that?

[kittensXLI]

How do people say he was good because of Shaq, but then they say he doesn't play team basketball? Pick one side or the other. You'll likely be proven wrong no matter which side you take, but people need to quit making reasons up for why he's "not good enough".

Gonz, I agree about Jordan, obviously.

[Nick@Night]

even if he wins another title in the next few years people will make a case that he had two seven footers (as some idiot already alluded too) and a really good team around him which is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard in my life. people forget jordan had a pretty awesome cast around him too.
Bill Cartwright, ftw.

[devilandthelord]

Bill Cartwright, ftw.

:lol Worst looking shot I've ever seen.
Especially Free Throws.

[devilandthelord]

even if he wins another title in the next few years people will make a case that he had two seven footers (as some idiot already alluded too) and a really good team around him which is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard in my life. people forget jordan had a pretty awesome cast around him too.

And another thing about why Jordan is better than Kobe, is that he made all his teammates better. Not just during the games, but in their practice and preparation too.
All his teammates were playing over their heads when they were on the Bulls, because Jordan demanded excellence.
See: Scottie Pippen after Bulls for best example.

[Nick@Night]

:lol Worst looking shot I've ever seen.
Especially Free Throws.
He's also known as Calvin Booth's dad.

[weller3377]

Career Scoring Leaders
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Moses Malone - 27,409
6. Elvin Hayes - 27,313
7. Hakeem Olajuwon - 26,946
8. Shaquille O'Neal - 26,798
9. Oscar Robertson - 26,710
10. Dominique Wilkins - 26,668
11. John Havlicek - 26,395
12. Alex English - 25,613
13. Reggie Miller - 25,279
14. Jerry West - 25,192
15. Patrick Ewing - 24,815
16. Charles Barkley - 23,757
17. Allen Iverson - 23,615
18. Robert Parish - 23,334
19. Adrian Dantley - 23,177
20. Elgin Baylor - 23,149
21. Kobe Bryant - 22,623
22. Clyde Drexler - 22,195
23. Gary Payton - 21,813
24. Larry Bird - 21,791
25. Hal Greer - 21,586

For his 12 year career his is averaging 25.1 ppg, 5.3 Boards, 4.6 Assists, 1.5 Steals and 3 NBA Championships

I would concider that a Top 25 player. Yes he had Shaq but who cares. Jordan didn't win all his all by himself.

[Spicy McHaggis]

And another thing about why Jordan is better than Kobe, is that he made all his teammates better. Not just during the games, but in their practice and preparation too.
All his teammates were playing over their heads when they were on the Bulls, because Jordan demanded excellence.
See: Scottie Pippen after Bulls for best example.

Did you miss last year's memo? Kobe makes his teammates better now, too.

[devilandthelord]

Did you miss last year's memo? Kobe makes his teammates better now, too.

Well then he should've made them good enough to win the title.

[smokew11]

top 10 right now..he wins one w/o shaq he'll be behind only jordan, bird, wilt and magic imo

[smokew11]

Career Scoring Leaders
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Moses Malone - 27,409
6. Elvin Hayes - 27,313
7. Hakeem Olajuwon - 26,946
8. Shaquille O'Neal - 26,798
9. Oscar Robertson - 26,710
10. Dominique Wilkins - 26,668
11. John Havlicek - 26,395
12. Alex English - 25,613
13. Reggie Miller - 25,279
14. Jerry West - 25,192
15. Patrick Ewing - 24,815
16. Charles Barkley - 23,757
17. Allen Iverson - 23,615
18. Robert Parish - 23,334
19. Adrian Dantley - 23,177
20. Elgin Baylor - 23,149
21. Kobe Bryant - 22,623
22. Clyde Drexler - 22,195
23. Gary Payton - 21,813
24. Larry Bird - 21,791
25. Hal Greer - 21,586

For his 12 year career his is averaging 25.1 ppg, 5.3 Boards, 4.6 Assists, 1.5 Steals and 3 NBA Championships

I would concider that a Top 25 player. Yes he had Shaq but who cares. Jordan didn't win all his all by himself.


if i was starting a team right now, id take kobe over every player in bold above him in scoring

[Tiduwho]

Why I'm not a basketball historian: Who is Adrian Dantley? :confused

[neumdogg]

Well then he should've made them good enough to win the title.
Oh Jesus. They made it to the Finals. Title to come this year. Be patient.

[jimibadfish]

even if he wins another title in the next few years people will make a case that he had two seven footers (as some idiot already alluded too) and a really good team around him which is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard in my life. people forget jordan had a pretty awesome cast around him too.

You said that the West was way better than the East yesterday. And you just called me an idiot for thinking that Kobe needing dominant play down low to win a title is not a factor in his greatness.

Jordan NEVER had a supporting cast like Kobe had last year, and he certainly never had a player like Shaq. Period.

Pippen was a solid, borderline all-star, but his greatness can be attributed in large part to #23.

Kobe, a guy that is supposed to be the best scorer in the game, is not in the top ten in career points and he's been playing since high school.

Think about that when you consider him in regards to the all-time greats.

Idiot.

[neumdogg]

Jordan NEVER had a supporting cast like Kobe had last year.

VERY debatable. Pippen and Jordon were both in multiple allstar games. You look at the Lakers now and only one of the players has been an allstar multiple times.

[devilandthelord]

Oh Jesus. They made it to the Finals. Title to come this year. Be patient.

Sorry holmes.
Lebron will make you hurt this year.
Cavs FTChampionshipW!

[Rodey]

Championships don't suddenly vault you to the top of the list, I hate that argument.

Charles Barkley > Kobe Bryant

Sir Chuck didn't get a ring.

[devilandthelord]

Eh I disagree with that one.
Not in your entire point, but in the Chuck vs Kobe argument.
And I love Sir Charles and hate Kobe.
There's just no way I can say Charles was better than Kobe based on their careers though.

[jiggajm18]

barkley better than kobe? get the fuck out of here.

i'm guessing when it's all said and done, he'll be a top 10 player. no way will he be better than MJ though.

[jiggajm18]

Oh Jesus. They made it to the Finals. Title to come this year. Be patient.

making it to the finals does not mean jack shit.

[Lee3691]

VERY debatable. Pippen and Jordon were both in multiple allstar games. You look at the Lakers now and only one of the players has been an allstar multiple times.

Matt's arguement is silly.

Pippen=>Gasol
Rodman=>Odom
Harper/Kerr/Randy Brown=Fisher/Sasha/Farmar

Those Bulls were very talented.

[smokew11]

You said that the West was way better than the East yesterday. And you just called me an idiot for thinking that Kobe needing dominant play down low to win a title is not a factor in his greatness.

Jordan NEVER had a supporting cast like Kobe had last year, and he certainly never had a player like Shaq. Period.

Pippen was a solid, borderline all-star, but his greatness can be attributed in large part to #23.

Kobe, a guy that is supposed to be the best scorer in the game, is not in the top ten in career points and he's been playing since high school.

Think about that when you consider him in regards to the all-time greats.

Idiot.

id say pippen was a hell of a player and a triple-double machine..yes, jordan helped that, but pippen in his prime alone would have still been an all-star...

steve kerr was one of the best 3 pt shooters ever

rodman, forgetting the garbage, was one of the best defensive players/rebounders ever

the bulls had a never ending supply of big centers coming through and pulling their weight

kobe (after shaq) just recently got a supporting cast with bynum and gasol..give him some time

[jimibadfish]

VERY debatable. Pippen and Jordon were both in multiple allstar games. You look at the Lakers now and only one of the players has been an allstar multiple times.

The All Star game is a beauty pageant. You know that.

[neumdogg]

Sorry holmes.
Lebron will make you hurt this year.
Cavs FTChampionshipW!
Your Cavs will cool off soon enough. In fact, this coming Monday, when they lose at the Staples Center, your cavs will go down in a tailspin like what happened to the Celtics on xmas day.

[neumdogg]

making it to the finals does not mean jack shit.
I know. Thats why I said be patient. Besides, Kobe has 3 rings already.

[neumdogg]

The All Star game is a beauty pageant. You know that.
Mmmmm, hot black men!

Edit: No homo

[jimibadfish]

Here's the overwhelming point lost in all this: Jordan>Kobe and to even bring Jordan's name up when discussing the greatness of Kobe Bryant other than to say that he was not as great as Jordan is erroneous. To say that Kobe is somehow better than he is because Jordan had a good supporting cast is just ridiculous.

Kobe's stats, titles and global impact on the sport are dwarfed by #23.

[1eyed_jack]

jordan had some great supporting casts. anyone who says otherwise is stupid

for awhile, kukoc was a solid 14 point, 4.5 rebound 4.5 assist player, which is quite good, not to mention a good defender.

all pippen was good for is being a 20 point, 6 rebound 7.5 assist man. oh yeah, he was also a 7-time all-star and made all nba-first team defense 8 times. only other players to do that are MJ, gary payton, tim duncan and bobby jones

ron harper was also good for 20 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds and 2.5 steals before going to the bulls and taking a back seat.

dennis rodman kinda sucked too, he only averaged over 15 rebounds 7 times in career and was a two-time all-star.
he was also all-defensive first team 7 times and defensive player of the year twice.

shit jordan might as well have been all alone out there

[Lee3691]

Here's the overwhelming point lost in all this: Jordan>Kobe and to even bring Jordan's name up when discussing the greatness of Kobe Bryant other than to say that he was not as great as Jordan is erroneous. To say that Kobe is somehow better than he is because Jordan had a good supporting cast is just ridiculous.

Kobe's stats, titles and global impact on the sport are dwarfed by #23.

Not too many people claim that Kobe has had a better career/been a better player then Jordan. But, considering that Kobe, at worst, is one of the top 3 players at the same position Jordan plays, makes it a natural to comapre players when we are playing these games.

[jimibadfish]

jordan had some great supporting casts. anyone who says otherwise is stupid

for awhile, kukoc was a solid 14 point, 4.5 rebound 4.5 assist player, which is quite good, not to mention a good defender.

all pippen was good for is being a 20 point, 6 rebound 7.5 assist man. oh yeah, he was also a 7-time all-star and made all nba-first team defense 8 times. only other players to do that are MJ, gary payton, tim duncan and bobby jones

ron harper was also good for 20 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds and 2.5 steals before going to the bulls and taking a back seat.

dennis rodman kinda sucked too, he only averaged over 15 rebounds 7 times in career and was a two-time all-star.
he was also all-defensive first team 7 times and defensive player of the year twice.

shit jordan might as well have been all alone out there

Nobody said that Jordan's supporting cast sucked. Nobody.

Every time he won a title, Kobe has had one of the most dominant players in the history of the game. Somebody brought up Jordan's cast as some kind of moronic argument against Kobe needing a Shaq-type player to win the title. What the fuck does Jordan have to do with Kobe needing Shaq in his fucking prime to win a title? Tell me. The mention of Jordan here is an insult to his airness. Kobe ain't on his level.

[live@alpine]

I'd say he's top 10 all time. When it's all said and done Lebron will be top 3. Put Dwyane Wade on the Lakers and he'd be getting consideration for top 10 also, imo.

[Lee3691]

Nobody said that Jordan's supporting cast sucked. Nobody.



You said that Jordan never had the supporting cast that Kobe had last year. That's just idiotic.

[1eyed_jack]

Nobody said that Jordan's supporting cast sucked. Nobody.

Every time he won a title, Kobe has had one of the most dominant players in the history of the game. Somebody brought up Jordan's cast as some kind of moronic argument against Kobe needing a Shaq-type player to win the title. What the fuck does Jordan have to do with Kobe needing Shaq in his fucking prime to win a title? Tell me. The mention of Jordan here is an insult to his airness. Kobe ain't on his level.


i've seen most of jordan's career since i've lived in chicago my whole life.
is kobe as good as jordan? no. but you bet your ass he's on the same plane as him. jordan was obviously an amazing player, but so is kobe. both are quite similar too. good defensive players that are able to drive and finish at the hoop. both have outstanding jump shots and can create their own shot from anywhere on the court. jordan went into the post more but kobe is starting too and is quite effective in doing so. and both are extremely clutch.

not saying kobe is better, just saying they are very much on the same level

[1eyed_jack]

I'd say he's top 10 all time. When it's all said and done Lebron will be top 3. Put Dwyane Wade on the Lakers and he'd be getting consideration for top 10 also, imo.


IF lebron develops a jump shot, ups his defense and can stay healthy and motivated for 10 more years then we can talk about him

[jimibadfish]

Not too many people claim that Kobe has had a better career/been a better player then Jordan. But, considering that Kobe, at worst, is one of the top 3 players at the same position Jordan plays, makes it a natural to comapre players when we are playing these games.

You don't think it's an erroneous comeback to say "well Jordan played with good players," when someone says that Kobe has never won without Shaq (one of the most dominant players ever) in his prime? I think it's just fucking stupid.

ex.

Statement: Tom Brady needed Randy Moss to break all those records.

Reply: Well, Dan Marino had a good receiver too!!

It's not an argument. It's just annoying.

[neumdogg]

Nobody said that Jordan's supporting cast sucked. Nobody.

Every time he won a title, Kobe has had one of the most dominant players in the history of the game. Somebody brought up Jordan's cast as some kind of moronic argument against Kobe needing a Shaq-type player to win the title. What the fuck does Jordan have to do with Kobe needing Shaq in his fucking prime to win a title? Tell me. The mention of Jordan here is an insult to his airness. Kobe ain't on his level.

The bolded is completely true. However, there is NO WAY Shaq wins those titles without a second allstar like Kobe or Wade.

[jimibadfish]

You said that Jordan never had the supporting cast that Kobe had last year. That's just idiotic.

I disagree.

[jimibadfish]

The bolded is completely true. However, there is NO WAY Shaq wins those titles without a second allstar like Kobe or Wade.

This thread is about Kobe Bryant.

[1eyed_jack]

every great player needed another to win championships. every great team had a duo.

[Lee3691]

You don't think it's an erroneous comeback to say "well Jordan played with good players," when someone says that Kobe has never won without Shaq (one of the most dominant players ever) in his prime? I think it's just fucking stupid.

ex.

Statement: Tom Brady needed Randy Moss to break all those records.

Reply: Well, Dan Marino had a good receiver too!!

It's not an argument. It's just annoying.

I really have no idea what you are talking about you.

You said:

Jordan NEVER had a supporting cast like Kobe had last year
If you truly believe that, please go back to posting about the SEC. That's absurd.

[jimibadfish]

IF lebron develops a jump shot, ups his defense and can stay healthy and motivated for 10 more years then we can talk about him

You don't pay much attention outside of LA do you? LeBron is shooting over 50% this year. Has been hitting career high percentage of his jumpers and free throws.

[Lee3691]

I disagree.

Read post above; please go back to posting about the SEC

Pippen was better then Gassol? Agree or disagree
Rodman better then Odom? Agree or disagree
Kukoc better then Walton? Agree or disagree
Harper = Fisher? Agree or disagree
Kerr better then Farmer? Agree or disagree
Longley better then 1/4 season of Bynum? Agree or disagree?

[1eyed_jack]

You don't pay much attention outside of LA do you? LeBron is shooting over 50% this year. Has been hitting career high percentage of his jumpers and free throws.

hmm..i saw one game where lebron had something like 9 dunks, so he sure as hell better be shooting a good percentage.

it happens to all players, eventually his knees will begin to wear and he won't be able to drive as much. that's when we learn what kind of a shot he has. right now defenders are so afraid to play up on him because he can drive that he has open looks constantly.

[jimibadfish]

I really have no idea what you are talking about you.

I posted something about Kobe not winning without one of the most dominant players ever.

Someone replied with, "Well Jordan needed good players too."

Why? What the fuck does that have to do with the argument.

Had Jordan at 30-years-old been on the Lakers last year, they stomp the Celtics. Were the supporting casts of the Bulls better than the Lakers last year? I don't think so. Either way, it's a moot point.

[1eyed_jack]

Read post above; please go back to posting about the SEC

Pippen was better then Gassol? Agree or disagree
Rodman better then Odom? Agree or disagree
Kukoc better then Walton? Agree or disagree
Harper = Fisher? Agree or disagree
Kerr better then Farmer? Agree or disagree
Longley better then 1/4 season of Bynum? Agree or disagree?


i think farmar is the only one i take :lol

[jimibadfish]

Read post above; please go back to posting about the SEC

Pippen was better then Gassol? Agree or disagree
Rodman better then Odom? Agree or disagree
Kukoc better then Walton? Agree or disagree
Harper = Fisher? Agree or disagree
Kerr better then Farmer? Agree or disagree
Longley better then 1/4 season of Bynum? Agree or disagree?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2008.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

You look at these stats and tell me. Or keep talking out of your ass and writing off my argument.

That's the best Bulls team. Only three guys averaged over 10 ppg. 5 Lakers did the same last year. Way more bench production from the Lakers too.

So look into what you say instead of just assuming based on popular belief.

[Sou1 So1di3r]

Last time I checked Michael Jordan was #1

[RJP2741]

As of right now, Kobe is in the top 15 I think, potentially finishing in the top 5. And yes Jordan is #1. And you put Jordan on last years Lakers team and they absolutely win the title.

[jimibadfish]

I'll take you morons lack of response to the actual stats of the Bulls compared to Lakers instead of just the knee jerk "I recognize the Bulls players names!" response as a win in this argument. Fucking amateurs dude.

[devilandthelord]

Your Cavs will cool off soon enough. In fact, this coming Monday, when they lose at the Staples Center, your cavs will go down in a tailspin like what happened to the Celtics on xmas day.

Not likely.
They may not win as many games as they're on pace for right now, but Lebron would never let them go into any kind of Boston-like tailspin after Christmas day.
I could easily see them winning 60-63 games and they will win the Championship. Whomever they play.

[1eyed_jack]

I'll take you morons lack of response to the actual stats of the Bulls compared to Lakers instead of just the knee jerk "I recognize the Bulls players names!" response as a win in this argument. Fucking amateurs dude.

you must be what like 14? any knowledgeable NBA fan can tell you that pippen is better than odom and rodman is better than gasol. you seriously think otherwise?

[devilandthelord]

Well Rodman was a better rebounder and defender than Gasol. But he was a horrible offensive player, so Gasol has him by miles there. As well as shot blocking.

[1eyed_jack]

Well Rodman was a better rebounder and defender than Gasol. But he was a horrible offensive player, so Gasol has him by miles there. As well as shot blocking.

gasol is a bit weak defensively, rodman was tough as nails. plus jordan and pippen carried enough of the offense to where rodman didn't have to. he was capable on offense though

[devilandthelord]

True. Gasol must be the Lakers #2 option for them to be truly effective.
Whereas the Bulls had Michael, Scottie and Kukoc in the late 90s.
He worked perfectly cuz all they needed him to do was rebound and defend.

Thats how I wanna see the Cavs use Ben Wallace this year. And they are starting to.
They know he's a liability on the offensive end, so when he's on the floor they need 2-3 other guys out there they know can score. So with Lebron, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Big Z, etc its working out pretty good. He's finally getting back to being big, bad Ben.

[smokew11]

you must be what like 14? any knowledgeable NBA fan can tell you that pippen is better than odom and rodman is better than gasol. you seriously think otherwise?


gasol> rodman...maybe not defensivly, but all-round...rodman was terrible on offense, whereas gasol is a good defender...

i agree with all your other posts tho, jordan had some great supporting casts..i forgot about kukoc

[Rodey]

I would take Barkley, a 22 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg player for his career over Kobe.

Really not that ridiculous of a statement.

[heff77]

I would take Barkley, a 22 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg player for his career over Kobe.

Really not that ridiculous of a statement.


Not ridiculous, but not really all that smart. Kobe is a better defender and I would take his ability to play 3 positions over Chuck's rebs. Barkley is fairly underated I give you that.

[jimibadfish]

you must be what like 14? any knowledgeable NBA fan can tell you that pippen is better than odom and rodman is better than gasol. you seriously think otherwise?

The team depth. The depth of the team. The whole team. Not one player. The team. The entire supporting cast.

Gasol>Rodman at that point in his career by miles.

Let's consider the teams that actually won the championships as opposed to the ones that got bitch slapped in the final and how much better they were than the Bulls minus Jordan. Shaq, Glenn Rice., Big Shot Bob. Kobe averaged just 22.5 points a game on the '00 team. He was not even the key player. Shaq was just as he was on the other two championship teams. Kobe became more of a star in those years and even the best shooting guard in the league, but it was still Shaq that lead those teams to the rings. More points in each of the seasons. Way more rebounds. And he averaged just 1.6 more assists than the big fella.

Jordan was the key player. On the greatest team ever.

[Rodey]

Barkley might have been the most dominant power forward ever and he's fuckin' 6'6"

His hustle, tenacity and toughness were unbelievable. He averaged 23, 13 and 4 in his career throughout the playoffs too so it's not like he was a failure in the sense of post-season play. He just ran into the Bulls dynasty and never was able to get a title with Phoenix where he had his best chance to.

[jimibadfish]

gasol is a bit weak defensively, rodman was tough as nails. plus jordan and pippen carried enough of the offense to where rodman didn't have to. he was capable on offense though

Scottie Pippen averaged only .6 ppg more than Gasol did last year on the greatest team in the history of the NBA.

Jordan.

[live@alpine]

IF lebron develops a jump shot, ups his defense and can stay healthy and motivated for 10 more years then we can talk about him

I think he will get that part of his game down because he actually seems to consistently work at his game, judging by his progress, especially from last season to this season. He is a monster. This is the first year I think I would take Lebron over Kobe.

[1eyed_jack]

Scottie Pippen averaged only .6 ppg more than Gasol did last year on the greatest team in the history of the NBA.

Jordan.


PIPPEN, took a team to the playoffs without jordan, he could hold his own just fine

[jimibadfish]

Barkley might have been the most dominant power forward ever and he's fuckin' 6'6"

His hustle, tenacity and toughness were unbelievable. He averaged 23, 13 and 4 in his career throughout the playoffs too so it's not like he was a failure in the sense of post-season play. He just ran into the Bulls dynasty and never was able to get a title with Phoenix where he had his best chance to.

Agreed on all points. Charles is actually only 6'4.75". Amazing talent.


US Basketball Star. In 1997 he said, "I'm 6-4 3/4 [6ft 6] just sounded good coming out of college"

[jimibadfish]

PIPPEN, took a team to the playoffs without jordan, he could hold his own just fine

You mean the Trailblazers that had Rasheed, Damon Stoudamire, and Steve Smith average more points than Pippen in '00 and add Bonzi Wells in '01. That team? He was on a team that went to the playoffs after he left the Bulls. I agree.

You don't know your facts.

[justinandimcool]

I think he was referencing to the 1994 and 1995 Bulls teams that were contenders with Pippen as the main guy.

[Lee3691]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2008.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

You look at these stats and tell me. Or keep talking out of your ass and writing off my argument.

That's the best Bulls team. Only three guys averaged over 10 ppg. 5 Lakers did the same last year. Way more bench production from the Lakers too.

So look into what you say instead of just assuming based on popular belief.

I thought it was a moot point.

Your first mistake is using stats, and only stats, to make your arguments. Basketball is a sport that your stats are more affected by your teammates then any other sport. If you were to put Jordan (in his prime) on last year's Celtics team, he wouldnt average more then 25 ppg.

In Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman you have two of the best defensive players in NBA history. When Michael Jordan is the 3rd best defender on your team, that's a talented defensive team.

Pippen is far and away a better player then Gasol. Gasol is a great offensive power forward, and a good rebounder, but one of the worst defensive forwards in the NBA. Check the NBA thread when I have been bitching about the Lakers defense. Pippen had no weakness in his game, and was so good, he lead a team to the Eastern Conference 2nd round, 55 wins, that could of very well been in the NBA Finals, if not for one of the most infamous calls in NBA History (the phantom foul). In fact, Jordan's teammates were so good, they almost made the NBA Finals [B]without him[B]. Think the Lakers minus Kobe could of done that.

Pippen and Rodman will get into the NBA HoF (unless voters are turned off by Rodman's off court behavior, but he should be there). The Lakers have one player who is HoF material right now.

3 HoF on 96 Bulls => 1 HoF on 2007 Lakers = the reason the 96 Bulls were such a great team, was not just because of Jordan.


Really, is there anyone else besides Matt who thinks that the 2007 Lakers minus Kobe were a better team then the 96 Bulls minus Jordan? Anyone?

[jimibadfish]

Oh. my bad. Yes, they went to the playoffs and lost in the second round two years when Jordan played baseball. He came back at the end of the second year and led the team in scoring.

[Lee3691]

I think he was referencing to the 1994 and 1995 Bulls teams that were contenders with Pippen as the main guy.

Word.

Even though Jordan had retired, the NBA was still played.

[jimibadfish]

I thought it was a moot point.

Your first mistake is using stats, and only stats, to make your arguments. Basketball is a sport that your stats are more affected by your teammates then any other sport. If you were to put Jordan (in his prime) on last year's Celtics team, he wouldnt average more then 25 ppg.

In Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman you have two of the best defensive players in NBA history. When Michael Jordan is the 3rd best defender on your team, that's a talented defensive team.

Pippen is far and away a better player then Gasol. Gasol is a great offensive power forward, and a good rebounder, but one of the worst defensive forwards in the NBA. Check the NBA thread when I have been bitching about the Lakers defense. Pippen had no weakness in his game, and was so good, he lead a team to the Eastern Conference 2nd round, 55 wins, that could of very well been in the NBA Finals, if not for one of the most infamous calls in NBA History (the phantom foul). In fact, Jordan's teammates were so good, they almost made the NBA Finals [B]without him[B]. Think the Lakers minus Kobe could of done that.

Pippen and Rodman will get into the NBA HoF (unless voters are turned off by Rodman's off court behavior, but he should be there). The Lakers have one player who is HoF material right now.

3 HoF on 96 Bulls => 1 HoF on 2007 Lakers = the reason the 96 Bulls were such a great team, was not just because of Jordan.


Really, is there anyone else besides Matt who thinks that the 2007 Lakers minus Kobe were a better team then the 96 Bulls minus Jordan? Anyone?

The point is that the Lakers team had more depth and more capable scorers. It's close, but the edge goes to the Lakers imo. You dismissing my point is just ludicrous. The big difference in the teams was Michael Jordan>Kobe Bryant. Not the role players.

[devilandthelord]

Agreed on all points. Charles is actually only 6'4.75". Amazing talent.


US Basketball Star. In 1997 he said, "I'm 6-4 3/4 [6ft 6] just sounded good coming out of college"

Ha, I can believe that.
I remember watching the 1993 NBA Finals, seeing Michael and Charles next to one another and thinking "MJ looks a little taller than Sir Charles and they're both supposed to 6"6' right?".

[Lee3691]

The point is that the Lakers team had more depth and more capable scorers. It's close, but the edge goes to the Lakers imo. You dismissing my point is just ludicrous. The big difference in the teams was Michael Jordan>Kobe Bryant. Not the role players.

If you want to argue that Jordan was better then Kobe, it's probably not a good idea to say something as absurd as that Kobe had a better supporting cast. Of course, you can know try to change your turn and say the Lakers had more capable 'scorers', which isn't true considering that those Bulls teams were so good, they only needed Ron Harper to score like 9ppg. Basketball is not just about scoring, and you didn't say anything about scoring when you said that Kobe had the better supporting cast.

Save some credibility and stop saying that Jordan's teammates werent as good as Kobe's last years.

Now if you want to say Magic played with better players then Jordan, I'd agree with that.

[devilandthelord]

Like was said before, if you replace Kobe with MJ on last year's Lakers team, MJ wins that title for them.
MJ simply would not allow his team to lose when it mattered. And he was always the man. Not like on the 3 championship teams Kobe was on where Shaq was the man.
Bottom line.

[justinandimcool]

The Lakers are the more offensively dynamic team, whereas the Bulls were made up of pieces. Rodman was there to rebound and defend, Longley/Cartwright to set picks and defend, Kerr to shoot, Harper/Armstrong to distribute, Kukoc to be a utility guard/forward, Pippen to do everything a basketball player does while picking up the offensive slack when Jordan feels like deferring to him. The Lakers are less of a "specialty" team. Bynum, Gasol, Fisher, Vujacic, Odom- all scorers/shooters before anything else, not much toughness/defense. The Lakers can contend without Kobe because of the triangle and able scoring, whereas the Bulls could contend without Jordan because they had a bunch of disciplined system players and someone in Pippen who could also fill it up. Both teams score, but in different ways. It's a push for me.

[Lee3691]

Like was said before, if you replace Kobe with MJ on last year's Lakers team, MJ wins that title for them.
MJ simply would not allow his team to lose when it mattered. And he was always the man. Not like on the 3 championship teams Kobe was on where Shaq was the man.
Bottom line.

Maybe, but we'll never know - if the Lakers plus Jordan played shitty defense like they did, I am not so sure. As good as Jordan was, even he needs teammates.

[devilandthelord]

Maybe, but we'll never know - if the Lakers plus Jordan played shitty defense like they did, I am not so sure. As good as Jordan was, even he needs teammates.

Jordan would have fucking reamed them out and made them play better defense.
Sometimes his teammates only played better because they were scared of him.

[jimibadfish]

If you want to argue that Jordan was better then Kobe, it's probably not a good idea to say something as absurd as that Kobe had a better supporting cast. Of course, you can know try to change your turn and say the Lakers had more capable 'scorers', which isn't true considering that those Bulls teams were so good, they only needed Ron Harper to score like 9ppg. Basketball is not just about scoring, and you didn't say anything about scoring when you said that Kobe had the better supporting cast.

Save some credibility and stop saying that Jordan's teammates werent as good as Kobe's last years.

Now if you want to say Magic played with better players then Jordan, I'd agree with that.

I think they were more deep and more of the starters could be depended on for scoring. Defensively, the Bulls were better. Obviously.

The supporting casts weren't that much better or worse. I give a slight edge to the Lakers of last year and a big edge to the Lakers with Shaq.

Jordan was the difference. Not the supporting casts.

It's not that absurd to say the Lakers last year had a better team minus the best player as the Bulls in 96. It's just not. Regardless of what you think.

[jimibadfish]

Last year's Lakers would have scored 120 points per game with MJ.

[Lee3691]

I think they were more deep and more of the starters could be depended on for scoring. Defensively, the Bulls were better. Obviously.

The supporting casts weren't that much better or worse. I give a slight edge to the Lakers of last year and a big edge to the Lakers with Shaq.

Jordan was the difference. Not the supporting casts.

It's not that absurd to say the Lakers last year had a better team minus the best player as the Bulls in 96. It's just not. Regardless of what you think.
I havent said anything about the supporting casts of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, because that's a different story. I called you out on one specific comment, and all you can talk about is statistics. The NBA isn't just about statistics.

Its absurd to think that the supporting cast of the Lakers last year - which was a good team no doubt - was even near the quality of the 96 Bulls.

Being that we both can agree that Jordan and Kobe were the best players on their team respectively, let's go one by one and see which team had better players...

2nd best player:
Gasol vs Pippen = Pippen by a mile
3rd best player:
Odom vs Rodman = Rodman by far
4th best player:
Fisher vs Kukoc = Kukoc
5th best player:
Farmer vs Harper = Harper
6th best player:
Walton vs Kerr = slight edge to Kerr
7th best player:
Radmanovic vs Lonley = Longley
8th best player:
Vujacic vs Wennington = Vujacic
rest of the bench:
Buechler,Simpkins, Brown, Caffrey vs. Turiaf, Ariza, Mihm, Mbenga = even

If you really want to argue this point, tell me where you disagree.
And the argument that Jordan with the Lakers team would of beaten the Celtics isn't really relavent - the argument would be:

96 Bulls vs 2008 Lakers, with the 96 Jordan replacing the 2008 Kobe.
Who would you take?

[jimibadfish]

I havent said anything about the supporting casts of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, because that's a different story. I called you out on one specific comment, and all you can talk about is statistics. The NBA isn't just about statistics.

Its absurd to think that the supporting cast of the Lakers last year - which was a good team no doubt - was even near the quality of the 96 Bulls.

Being that we both can agree that Jordan and Kobe were the best players on their team respectively, let's go one by one and see which team had better players...

2nd best player:
Gasol vs Pippen = Pippen by a mile
3rd best player:
Odom vs Rodman = Rodman by far
4th best player:
Fisher vs Kukoc = Kukoc
5th best player:
Farmer vs Harper = Harper
6th best player:
Walton vs Kerr = slight edge to Kerr
7th best player:
Radmanovic vs Lonley = Longley
8th best player:
Vujacic vs Wennington = Vujacic
rest of the bench:
Buechler,Simpkins, Brown, Caffrey vs. Turiaf, Ariza, Mihm, Mbenga = even

If you really want to argue this point, tell me where you disagree.
And the argument that Jordan with the Lakers team would of beaten the Celtics isn't really relavent - the argument would be:

96 Bulls vs 2008 Lakers, with the 96 Jordan replacing the 2008 Kobe.
Who would you take?

I disagree with the bold. Rodman simply was not that good all around at that point in his career, great defender/rebounder, awful everything else. Farmar is a better all-around player than Harper in his years with the Bulls.

I'd take Jordan with the 08 Lakers. Their team defense would improve as would their scoring.

[devilandthelord]

Jordan with last year's Lakers and this year's Lakers would mean back to back titles.
Easily.

[Lee3691]

Jordan with last year's Lakers and this year's Lakers would mean back to back titles.
Easily.
:twak

That's not the debate....

What's your take 96 Bulls or 2008 Lakers with 96 Jordan replacing 2008 Kobe

[Lee3691]

I disagree with the bold. Rodman simply was not that good all around at that point in his career, great defender/rebounder, awful everything else. Farmar is a better all-around player than Harper in his years with the Bulls.

I'd take Jordan with the 08 Lakers. Their team defense would improve as would their scoring.

As good as Jordan was, he wouldn't of made the Laker bigs more physical.

If the 96 Bulls got to play under the same offense rules they have now, Pippen and Jordan would each probably averaged 5 more points game.

Since, we are on this absurd idea that you think the 2008 Lakers with Jordan over Kobe would be a better team then the 96 Bulls, how many games do you think they would of won? 75? 80?

[jimibadfish]

As good as Jordan was, he wouldn't of made the Laker bigs more physical.

If the 96 Bulls got to play under the same offense rules they have now, Pippen and Jordan would each probably averaged 5 more points game.

Since, we are on this absurd idea that you think the 2008 Lakers with Jordan over Kobe would be a better team then the 96 Bulls, how many games do you think they would of won? 75? 80?

14 more.

EDIT: The West was a better conference top to bottom than the East in 96, so that's irrelevant.

[1eyed_jack]

yeah definitely referring to the bulls teams pippen took to the playoffs. were you too young then?

and if you want to know the difference between the bulls and the lakers teams, it's that the bulls had smart players. the lakers, should have won that game tonight, but fisher made a bone-head play at the end that cost them the win. it won't show up in any stat book though, so it might drive you crazy cause you can really use it as a stat

[Lee3691]

14 more.

EDIT: The West was a better conference top to bottom than the East in 96, so that's irrelevant.

75% of the games an NBA team plays are the exact same schedule the rest of the league plays. That would of been a 6 game difference, which is huge. You fail under your own guess.

In addition, the East in 1996 was fantastic. You had a 60 win team in the Magic that had just played in the Finals. All 8 teams who made the playoffs had winning records.

[Lee3691]

I disagree with the bold. Rodman simply was not that good all around at that point in his career, great defender/rebounder, awful everything else. Farmar is a better all-around player than Harper in his years with the Bulls.


By your own opinion, when you look at the 2nd to 7th best players on the Bulls vs Lakers (6 guys), you think that the Bulls had the advantage at 4 of those spots, and the Lakers at 2, yet the Lakers had a better supporting staff.

BTW, there isn't a GM in basketball who would trade the 96 Rodman and what he did for that team for last year's Lamar Odom.

[jimibadfish]

yeah definitely referring to the bulls teams pippen took to the playoffs. were you too young then?

Seriously, fuck you. You're one of the least informed people that posts on the NBA. MY BIRTHDAY IS IN MY PROFILE, moron.

I said my bad. Last year's Lakers could have been "taken" to the playoffs by Pau Gasol as well.

[UNC41]

BTW, there isn't a GM in basketball who would trade the 96 Rodman and what he did for that team for last year's Lamar Odom.

Kevin McHale would in a heartbeat. I feel much safer with him on the bench than running the entire show, but that's not saying much.

This argument is really amusing.

[jimibadfish]

75% of the games an NBA team plays are the exact same schedule the rest of the league plays. That would of been a 6 game difference, which is huge. You fail under your own guess.

In addition, the East in 1996 was fantastic. You had a 60 win team in the Magic that had just played in the Finals. All 8 teams who made the playoffs had winning records.

They played in different leagues at different times. It's irrelevant.

By your own opinion, when you look at the 2nd to 7th best players on the Bulls vs Lakers (6 guys), you think that the Bulls had the advantage at 4 of those spots, and the Lakers at 2, yet the Lakers had a better supporting staff.

BTW, there isn't a GM in basketball who would trade the 96 Rodman and what he did for that team for last year's Lamar Odom.

I honestly didn't look into it that much. Those were just two that stuck out.

Right. Lamar Odom is a better all-around player than Rodman in '96.

[devilandthelord]

:twak

That's not the debate....

What's your take 96 Bulls or 2008 Lakers with 96 Jordan replacing 2008 Kobe

Oh I didn't know the debate had changed subjects. Pardon me. :lol

Yeah I'd take the 96 Bulls then.

[Lee3691]

Kevin McHale would in a heartbeat. I feel much safer with him on the bench than running the entire show, but that's not saying much.

This argument is really amusing.

Well McHale and Isiah sure...I meant to say no competent NBA General Manager.

[Lee3691]

I honestly didn't look into it that much. Those were just two that stuck out.

Right. Lamar Odom is a better all-around player than Rodman in '96.

Ron Harper was a better all around player on that team - who cares - are you saying that Harper was more important then Rodman to those teams? Rodman's 2 strenths - the ability to guard any front court player better then anyone else in the NBA, and being the best rebounder in the NBA triumphs the all around game of Odom.

Look back at the 3peat Laker teams. Kobe was a better all around player then Shaq. Who was more important? Your 'more important' argument is nonsense.

[gonz085]

those stats from the season are pretty misleading for chicago. they were blowing out teams during the regular season by so much that no one else didn't really have to do anything. they were THAT dominant. everyone just had to fall into their roles and that team was money. now in the playoffs, the roles of those players were much more apparent than any average could show.

[jimibadfish]

Ron Harper was a better all around player on that team - who cares - are you saying that Harper was more important then Rodman to those teams? Rodman's 2 strenths - the ability to guard any front court player better then anyone else in the NBA, and being the best rebounder in the NBA triumphs the all around game of Odom.

Look back at the 3peat Laker teams. Kobe was a better all around player then Shaq. Who was more important? Your 'more important' argument is nonsense.

Neither one of these is true. As I pointed out earlier, Kobe had less points, rebounds and less than 2 more assists than Shaq and Shaq was WAY more important on defense than Kobe.

Harper was not a better all around player than Rodman on the Bulls and he wasn't near the player Odom is for the Lakers now. He really didn't excel at anything in those years. He was a decent role player.

[kittensXLI]

I don't know. I'd take Harper over Odom probably every time.

[Lee3691]

Neither one of these is true. As I pointed out earlier, Kobe had less points, rebounds and less than 2 more assists than Shaq and Shaq was WAY more important on defense than Kobe.

Harper was not a better all around player than Rodman on the Bulls and he wasn't near the player Odom is for the Lakers now. He really didn't excel at anything in those years. He was a decent role player.

Stats don't tell the whole story.
But....
Kobe was a better passer, 3 point shooter, free throw shooter, more steals, and a better ball handler then Shaq.

Of course, this all a diversion into your ridiculous assertion that last year's Laker team had more talent then the Bulls (minus Kobe & Jordan)
It's quite silly and entertaining. Please continue, and really take time to to go through the list posted about what team had better players.

[1eyed_jack]

Seriously, fuck you. You're one of the least informed people that posts on the NBA. MY BIRTHDAY IS IN MY PROFILE, moron.

I said my bad. Last year's Lakers could have been "taken" to the playoffs by Pau Gasol as well.

probably not, but ok. and pippen "took" the bulls basically into the conference championship if it weren't for one of the worst calls in NBA history.

Gasol is soft, he's not leading anyone

[pathetic]

Kobe shouldve taken that last shot last night...that's why he'll never be MJ

[1eyed_jack]

Kobe shouldve taken that last shot last night...that's why he'll never be MJ

it's a no win situation for him with the double team coming. if he takes the last shot and misses, you come in here and post "kobe should have passed" that's why he'll never be MJ :lol

[RJP2741]

How did we get to this argument (Jordan vs. Kobe) instead of just where Kobe will stand in history. Do people really think that Kobe is better than Jordan? Its really just insane.

[1eyed_jack]

i don't think anyone thinks that. it just started when someone brought up how kobe has a much better supporting cast than jordan had :lol

...silly i know

[jimibadfish]

i don't think anyone thinks that. it just started when someone brought up how kobe has a much better supporting cast than jordan had :lol

...silly i know

Nobody ever said much better, and it was actually started when someone commented about how Jordan had a great supporting cast to somehow credit Kobe with never winning without Shaq. So try to keep up.

[1eyed_jack]

in 06-07 kobe took the lakers to the playoffs in a tough western conference and almost beat a really good suns team.
look at his supporting cast

an injured lamar odom
smush parker
luke walton
maurice evans
kwame brown
brian cook


just him taking the lakers to the playoffs that season says a lot about him. no one else in the nba could have led that team into the post-season

[Lee3691]

in 06-07 kobe took the lakers to the playoffs in a tough western conference and almost beat a really good suns team.
look at his supporting cast

an injured lamar odom
smush parker
luke walton
maurice evans
kwame brown
brian cook


just him taking the lakers to the playoffs that season says a lot about him. no one else in the nba could have led that team into the post-season

Right; the Western Conference was at its peak, and the other starting guard on the Lakers was Smush Parker.

BTW, Jordan did have a great supporting cast. So good, in fact, they won over 50 games, and were a bad call away from making the Eastern Conference Finals the year after he left, and this was before they had Rodman.

Let's put it this way. You put the 2007 Kobe on the 96 Bulls, do the Bulls win 72 games? Probably not. Do they win the NBA Title just as easy? Absolutely.

[neumdogg]

Round and round we go.

Cmon guys. Lets all get this straight. Jordon is better than Kobe. Jordon had a better supporting cast than Kobe. Lakers will win the title this year. Wally Szerbiak is dreamy. Brian Skinner will win the MVP.

[devilandthelord]

Round and round we go.

Cmon guys. Lets all get this straight. Jordon is better than Kobe. Jordon had a better supporting cast than Kobe. Lakers will win the title this year. Wally Szerbiak is dreamy. Brian Skinner will win the MVP.

No, the Cavs will. And you are in such denial about your homosexuality.

[Lee3691]

Round and round we go.

Cmon guys. Lets all get this straight. Jordon is better than Kobe. Jordon had a better supporting cast than Kobe. Lakers will win the title this year. Wally Szerbiak is dreamy. Brian Skinner will win the MVP.

And its spelled Jordan.
The Lakers need to play better defense to win the title.

[kittensXLI]

Brian Skinner might be the worst player ever.

[neumdogg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPnRFkPWyDM

[Spicy McHaggis]

Kobe shouldve taken that last shot last night...that's why he'll never be MJ

Are you insane? Kobe made a clutch three with 13 seconds to go, then Fisher, moron defender that he is now, fouled Mason during his clutch shot which gave the Spurs the lead. Kobe was covered and passed to a wide-open Ariza who got screwed on the traveling call. I'm not complaining about the refs, Lakers have themselves to blame first, but good defense by Fisher means Kobe has his third game-winning shot in four games. Remember, he hit the winner over Indiana as well as a 30 foot three-pointer with Battier in his face at Houston.

[jimibadfish]

Right; the Western Conference was at its peak, and the other starting guard on the Lakers was Smush Parker.

BTW, Jordan did have a great supporting cast. So good, in fact, they won over 50 games, and were a bad call away from making the Eastern Conference Finals the year after he left, and this was before they had Rodman.

Let's put it this way. You put the 2007 Kobe on the 96 Bulls, do the Bulls win 72 games? Probably not. Do they win the NBA Title just as easy? Absolutely.

I really don't think so. Jordan was the reason for their prowess. Games won. titles won easily. all that shit. They weren't great without him. I think they lose at least three of those titles with Kobe instead of Jordan.

Notice how I didn't call your theory absurd?

[jimibadfish]

in 06-07 kobe took the lakers to the playoffs in a tough western conference and almost beat a really good suns team.
look at his supporting cast

an injured lamar odom
smush parker
luke walton
maurice evans
kwame brown
brian cook


just him taking the lakers to the playoffs that season says a lot about him. no one else in the nba could have led that team into the post-season

The got beat 4-1 by the Suns in that series. And you realize that getting bounced from the first round of the playoffs is not that impressive when half the teams make it, right? Duncan, Garnett, James...all those guys would have taken the Lakers to the playoffs that year. LeBron took the Cavs to the finals for christ's sake.

They missed the playoffs in 04-05. Why? Probably because Phil Jackson took a sabbatical. Kobe missed a month with injury. During that month, the Lakers were 6-8 or .420. With Kobe that year, they were 27-41 or .397. So, the supporting cast did slightly better without Kobe that year.

Kobe is not on Jordan's level.

[haybale97]

Needs to win without Shaq to reall be elite. I'd still say top 10 without though.
:thumbsup

[Spicy McHaggis]

The Lakers wouldn't have won any of their three titles without Kobe. Indisputable.

[jimibadfish]

The Lakers wouldn't have won any of their three titles without Kobe. Indisputable.

And they probably wouldn't leave the first round without Shaq. Especially the first title year.

[BotheDMBFan]

They both needed each other.

[Lee3691]

I really don't think so. Jordan was the reason for their prowess. Games won. titles won easily. all that shit. They weren't great without him. I think they lose at least three of those titles with Kobe instead of Jordan.

Notice how I didn't call your theory absurd?

That's because it's not absurd, why your theories are.

Talk to me why those crappy Bulls players Jordan played with won 55 games the year after he retired - that's one of the key points on why your theory doesn't make sense.

[jimibadfish]

That's because it's not absurd, why your theories are.

Talk to me why those crappy Bulls players Jordan played with won 55 games the year after he retired - that's one of the key points on why your theory doesn't make sense.

Nobody ever said those players were crappy. You think by me saying the Bulls supporting cast wasn't as good as the Lakers is the same as me saying the Bulls were crappy? That's where your thinking is flawed.

It's like me saying Gran Torino is better than the Dark Night, and some idiot thinking that means I think the Dark Knight is crappy. It just doesn't add up.


I do know that with or without Kobe in 2004-2005 the Lakers weren't good enough to make the playoffs.

[clayj41]

It's like me saying Gran Torino is better than the Dark Night, and some idiot thinking that means I think the Dark Knight is crappy. It just doesn't add up.

I would interpret it that way just because I thought Gran Torino was crappy. :lol

[jimibadfish]

I would interpret it that way just because I thought Gran Torino was crappy. :lol

I don't know what to say to you then. Great fuckin movie.

[clayj41]

I don't know what to say to you then. Great fuckin movie.

Eastwood was great. The performance of every other actor/actress really hurt it for me.