Playing covers live?

[eggsrsweet]

I'm having an argument with somebody right now. They think that it is illegal to play cover songs in a live setting without permission from the artist. I say that the artist only needs permission to release that material, not just to play it. Which is it? I'm an aspiring musician and I would like to play a few covers live so that's the reason I'm asking. I do write my own original music by the way.

[JCpatriot66]

It's totally legal for a musician to play another musician's song. Everyone does it. It's always been legal, from what I can tell. Play what you want. You do need permission to release and sell the material, but there is absolutely nothing illegal about just playing it. See youtube covers, DMB covering songs (do you think they asked Dylan to play Watchtower in 1991?), basically anyone who plays live music.

[Jive]

not sure about legalities but I've heard that covering a song live is the highest form of gratitude/recognition to the artist/s or however you want to say it. like honoring the person/people who first create it ya know?

[MGH4007]

I'm having an argument with somebody right now. They think that it is illegal to play cover songs in a live setting without permission from the artist. I say that the artist only needs permission to release that material, not just to play it. Which is it? I'm an aspiring musician and I would like to play a few covers live so that's the reason I'm asking. I do write my own original music by the way.

It's completely legal to cover without permission. Actually, no original songwriter can deny their song to be performed live. On the other hand, the fact is you must pay the original artist royalties even for a cover when it is not released, this rule however is typically always broken by the local bar performer. There is another form of system in place which calls for the venue and performer to pay for performance rights. This money is then somehow spread throughout system with hopes that the original artist will see some of it. This is based of the fact most every bar performer, or similar, plays covers all the time. So long story short, it is illegal to just cover a song and not pay for rights, or royalties but, "who's going to stop you?", is the problem.

[MGH4007]

not sure about legalities but I've heard that covering a song live is the highest form of gratitude/recognition to the artist/s or however you want to say it. like honoring the person/people who first create it ya know?

I think that holds true for a lot but, some artists don't really want any of their stuff covered or re recorded.

[zajDmB1]

It's totally legal for a musician to play another musician's song. Everyone does it. It's always been legal, from what I can tell. Play what you want. You do need permission to release and sell the material, but there is absolutely nothing illegal about just playing it. See youtube covers, DMB covering songs (do you think they asked Dylan to play Watchtower in 1991?), basically anyone who plays live music.

Actually, a compulsory license exists to go against this. As long as the song was already publicly released by the copyright holder you don't need to ask permission to cover a song, you just have to pay the royalties, which are usually just the statutory rate.

But back to OP, it is not illegal to play a cover live. The copyright holder does have the exclusive rights to public performance technically, but this is never enforced because they will theoretically get paid, which makes it legal. And the reason is because all venues pay the performing rights organizations (BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) blanket fees. They then have to (are supposed to, many don't) report every song that was performed; live, from jukeboxes, over CD, etc. The rights orgs then distribute royalties accordingly.

EDIT: So technically, I suppose it is illegal if the copyright holder never gets paid, but it is impossible to police every single music club. But you can just assume they'll be getting paid so you aren't breaking any laws haah.

[VanHorneDog]

we play covers all the fucking time in my band, cuz we are pretty much awesome like that. ;) We are doing quite a few at this house party we are playing saturday.

[MGH4007]

???lol coolz and teh propzz.???

[whiteysax]

Many venues pay an annual "performance fee" or "performance tax"... there's some fancy name for it... which allows their establishment to host live music, basically covering all of those legalities. Found this out when I was shopping my classical trio around and ran into a wine bar that wanted music, but didn't bring in enough business throughout the year to justify paying an extra $750/yr to allow for live music in their restaurant. I think the rule of thumb is that if you're going to profit directly from that song which you didn't write and it's going to be a frequent, recurring profit, you should look into attaining copyright permission. This would include recording someone else's song and making profit by selling your album or, in my case many times, transcribing the music and profiting by putting it in print for others to use. In a live performance setting, you're being paid for your entertainment services, not to specifically play someone else's songs, even if that's the type of music you're playing.

[smokew11]

your friend is wrong

[MGH4007]

your friend is wrong

:thumbsup

[Warehouse21]

i actually know the answer to this. You are allowed to play a cover w/o permission. Technically, the venue that you're playing at is supposed to play ASCAP a certain, usually very small amount of money every year to compensate artists for their songs being performed. The way that money gets distributed is based on the charts at the time. So technically. Lady Gaga could be making two or three cents per open mic you play at! This is among the least enforced laws probably of all time, but i have been to venues that are "original songs only", because they don't pay ASCAP fees and are afraid of getting busted

[MGH4007]

i actually know the answer to this. You are allowed to play a cover w/o permission. Technically, the venue that you're playing at is supposed to play ASCAP a certain, usually very small amount of money every year to compensate artists for their songs being performed. The way that money gets distributed is based on the charts at the time. So technically. Lady Gaga could be making two or three cents per open mic you play at! This is among the least enforced laws probably of all time, but i have been to venues that are "original songs only", because they don't pay ASCAP fees and are afraid of getting busted

Op, if you didn't get it the first three times, here's a fourth. :lol

[eggsrsweet]

Thank you for the help! I may actually meet with a lawyer who somebody who really knows all the legalities. Not that I'm doubting you guys, I just don't want to get sued lol. Anyways, I've actually heard about people from the Music Biz going undercover to local bars and finding people playing cover tunes and trying to sue them and such. Might not be true but who knows?

[whiteysax]

Thank you for the help! I may actually meet with a lawyer who somebody who really knows all the legalities. Not that I'm doubting you guys, I just don't want to get sued lol. Anyways, I've actually heard about people from the Music Biz going undercover to local bars and finding people playing cover tunes and trying to sue them and such. Might not be true but who knows?
that's a little drastic... i don't know any musical acts that play at local bars who don't play a majority of covers. Most of the musical entertainment is rooted in covers. People wouldn't go to bars to hear live music if it was nothing but songs they've never heard before. Just don't record your covers and try to sell the recordings.

[zajDmB1]

Thank you for the help! I may actually meet with a lawyer who somebody who really knows all the legalities. Not that I'm doubting you guys, I just don't want to get sued lol. Anyways, I've actually heard about people from the Music Biz going undercover to local bars and finding people playing cover tunes and trying to sue them and such. Might not be true but who knows?

I don't mean to be all self-important but my post is 99% right. Don't wanna say 100% in case I missed a word, so I won't look as dumb haha, but I know this stuff pretty well. But a lawyer would know way more details, so if you do talk to him and hear anything different and/or interesting please come back and tell us. I'm interested.

And as far as the undercover thing, I know someone who worked for one of the performing rights orgs, won't say which one, and they told me that this does happen, but not how you said it. Think about any industry, if a client of yours isn't paying you money in any field of work, you are going to go after them. Venues reporting public performance royalties isn't any different to ASCAP or BMI or SESAC. People aren't going after the performers, though, they are going after the bars who are not paying or reporting information. It's not something that happens often, but once in a while.

[MGH4007]

that's a little drastic... i don't know any musical acts that play at local bars who don't play a majority of covers. Most of the musical entertainment is rooted in covers. People wouldn't go to bars to hear live music if it was nothing but songs they've never heard before. Just don't record your covers and try to sell the recordings.

A little off topic. How do you guys go about the DMB royalties.

[whiteysax]

A little off topic. How do you guys go about the DMB royalties.Like I said... we're paid to put on a show, to entertain. No one has paid us to replicate DMB, that's our choice as artists. The clubs that pay us would be the ones responsible for the royalties... we're simply the "hired help". At least that's how I translate what I've read in the past. I could be completely off in that interpretation. It could be simply that the band, in their outspoken support of free musical trade, bootlegging, etc... doesn't see a need to collect on those that spread their music through performance as opposed to recording.
I'm no lawyer.

[VanHorneDog]

???lol coolz and teh propzz.???

cool thanks,

i just meant that we do it and venues dont complain. im sure they would if it was illegal/enforceable.

although i have heard of places getting slapped with a fine or having somebody enforce the "original tunes only" rules because of lack of payment.

[MGH4007]

cool thanks,

i just meant that we do it and venues dont complain. im sure they would if it was illegal/enforceable.

although i have heard of places getting slapped with a fine or having somebody enforce the "original tunes only" rules because of lack of payment.

I don't believe it matters whether you play originals or covers, the performance fee's must be paid. I believe some places even take a percent from the bands gross that night to pay part of the fee.

[whiteysax]

I don't believe it matters whether you play originals or covers, the performance fee's must be paid. I believe some places even take a percent from the bands gross that night to pay part of the fee.
Absolutely... any price quote a club/bar gives you is what they're willing to pay after they cover their costs and fees

[VanHorneDog]

maybe i am missing something, how can a company that has no rights to a song get paid for it? if i play 2 hours of original music at a place why are they giving some of that money to not me?

[MGH4007]

maybe i am missing something, how can a company that has no rights to a song get paid for it? if i play 2 hours of original music at a place why are they giving some of that money to not me?

Because they have to pay performance rights no matter what, why shouldn't they charge you a little especially when it probably won't be a packed, and sold out club. Also, you said you have done covers, that stops the argument right there really. This is a complete guess, but 80% of any tunes played in a bar or club are not going to be originals, just how it goes. In the end, you have pay a little for that fact.:shrug

[DaveHead36]

although i have heard of places getting slapped with a fine or having somebody enforce the "original tunes only" rules because of lack of payment.

And if you don't pay/haven't been paying, the fine is stupid expensive. And by "you" I mean the venue. The artist doesn't have to pay anything.

[zajDmB1]

maybe i am missing something, how can a company that has no rights to a song get paid for it? if i play 2 hours of original music at a place why are they giving some of that money to not me?

Because they have to pay performance rights no matter what, why shouldn't they charge you a little especially when it probably won't be a packed, and sold out club. Also, you said you have done covers, that stops the argument right there really. This is a complete guess, but 80% of any tunes played in a bar or club are not going to be originals, just how it goes. In the end, you have pay a little for that fact.:shrug

Performing rights companies distribute royalties. They take the money but most of it goes right back out. Technically, if you play originals and are a member of a performance rights org, you could still be making money off yourself. They don't only report cover songs or famous songs. They report everything because they have to pay a fee in order to have music publicly performed or broadcast.