Impact Lillywhite will have on sales

[eggsrsweet]

I was talking with one of my friends the other day and I discovered they were a DMB fan! She said her fave songs were crash, satellite, say goodbye... She said she liked the older stuff the best! And I told her that the producer of the first three albums would be returning with the band and she got really excited! My question is... Do you think when people realize that Lillywhite is returning that people will go out and buy the album/buy the concert ticket?

[ToddJoyride]

No, DMB will sell a shit load of albums no matter who is producing.

[brew10]

Anyone that this will matter to a) already knows and b) were going to buy the album anyway. Your friend is the exception, not the rule.

[Sniper15]

No. Most casual fans don't give a fuck about producers

[yanks7533]

the only way sales are impacted is if the single is some radio friendly game changing u2 sounding song that gets play like sex on fire and use somebody. Otherwise could be the most hyped album ever and it won't matter much unless pop culture hypes it.

[coolhotwaves]

The fans will always buy the album, big sales occur when there is mainstream influence of the songs (radioplay) and album.

[Trippingchris]

It'll definitely hype the album and they could see some pretty awesome opening week numbers. I have some friends too who are casual fans and are excited to get it because of who's producing.

[eggsrsweet]

Obviously nobody outside of the hardcore fan base would care if it's Lillywhite and I know the fans will buy the album no matter what... but if people catch wind that the producer of Under the Table and Dreaming, Crash and Before these Crowded Streets is producing this album, I think it could have an impact! The band is going to sell a shit ton regardless (and sell even more if the first single gets some radio play) but there could be those people who cut the band off after Everyday. Those people might come back bringing even more fans to buy the album or go to the shows. I'm just wondering if the band will beat their first week sales of BW which was about 424K if I'm not mistaken. Either way, I'm sure it'll go number one again.

[slyguy12]

Directly, I don't think the Lillywhite name will mean a thing to the average listener. However, that same listener could well be more attracted to the music if there's a single with his influence on it like Crash Into Me, SMTS, WWYS, or Crush.

The indirect impact could be huge, it just depends on what becomes of the record.

[rargumosa]

I think the reputation Lillywhite has will impact the overall hype of the record, which probably will result in more sales. Either way he always delivers

[TMoore4075]

Anyone that this will matter to a) already knows and b) were going to buy the album anyway. Your friend is the exception, not the rule.

Yup. It won't do shit to sales. The last 3 did alright without Lillywhite. It will do well out of the gate and if it's a good album will continue to do well and that would be the case with any producer.

[btpeters]

For the casual people, the fact they are coming off of a well-received album like Big Whiskey will have them interested in the follow up.

[madhatter]

The new album will debut will debut at #1 on the charts and sell at least 400k copies in the first week, because that's what they've done for five straight albums. Any impact Lillywhite will have on sales will be due to the quality of the first single and the album as a whole, and not because of his name.

[mray10]

Only if it's a good album.

All the theories saying "maybe the Lillywhite news will draw back in some old fans who gave up after Everyday/SU/BW" assume that the only way for such fans to get a taste is to buy the album. That just ain't so anymore.

Those people might take some time and listen to some previews at iTunes, or they might download a rip somewhere, or listen to a stream of it ... but if it's not good they won't buy it. Seriously, if you liked the 90s material but gave up on them and haven't bought some of the last few records ... would the producer really be enough to earn your business back?

[redhawks225]

Having Lillywhite's name attached to the album will have little to no impact on overall album sales.

If DMB/Lillywhite put together a great album of course that will impact sales, but Lillywhite's name alone will not boost sales overall.

[chyeachyea552]

ive told some of my friends this and a lot of them got excited too. They didn't know his name, but they knew the same guy from the first three albums is back. I think that if people find out, itll definitely sell even better. im excited to see the real album promotion to start.

[eggsrsweet]

Alright, I can definitely understand what you guys are saying. If this new album is on par or better than the big 3 and sells a shit ton, I wonder if the band will start selling out every single venue. Do you think a return to stadiums is possible?

[TMoore4075]

Alright, I can definitely understand what you guys are saying. If this new album is on par or better than the big 3 and sells a shit ton, I wonder if the band will start selling out every single venue. Do you think a return to stadiums is possible?

Hope not. Most stadiums suck in terms of acoustics and I can just imagine the whole field being GA only.

[lockman21]

Alright, I can definitely understand what you guys are saying. If this new album is on par or better than the big 3 and sells a shit ton, I wonder if the band will start selling out every single venue. Do you think a return to stadiums is possible?

Absolutely not.

And the album will only do better because of Lillywhite if he puts out a better product. If he and the band are able to create a single that really hits well with the mainstream public (doubtful), then it will sell better, but not because Lillywhite's name is on it.

[cruscott35]

I couldn't name any producer from my other top 10 favorite albums. Lillywhite has no impact outside of hardcores.

[dobyblue]

I know lots of my albums producers and mastering engineers, but it's true for the most part that the average consumer doesn't buy based on the production team.

[spoot388]

It'll definitely hype the album and they could see some pretty awesome opening week numbers. I have some friends too who are casual fans and are excited to get it because of who's producing.


DMB has tied the record for more consecutive albums debuting at #1. they are in no way worried about how big the opening week numbers will be or if lillywhite will give it a boost. its going to debut at #1 just like everything since BTCS did.

[dmb27364041]

I'm going to buy 2 copies just because Steve Lillywhite is producing it.

[hockygoalie41]

I'm going to buy 3

[camptravisr]

Album will be better than the Big 3. Then we all won't know what to do. I'll be the Big 1 and the Little 3. Oh and Lillywhite's name might increase sales slightly. But a big hit single will increase sales more than that. All the big fans will be buying the album regardless.

[btpeters]

Album will be better than the Big 3. Then we all won't know what to do. I'll be the Big 1 and the Little 3. Oh and Lillywhite's name might increase sales slightly. But a big hit single will increase sales more than that. All the big fans will be buying the album regardless.

The album is never going to outsell or come close to Under the Table, Crash. Its most likely not going to outsell Everyday or Before These Crowded Streets either.

[groogrux27]

Album will be better than the Big 3. Then we all won't know what to do. I'll be the Big 1 and the Little 3. Oh and Lillywhite's name might increase sales slightly. But a big hit single will increase sales more than that. All the big fans will be buying the album regardless.
exactly. all of us and everyone that goes to multiple shows a year and is in the warehouse and whatever will be buying the album no matter who its produced by. and a good single that the mainstreams like will get the public sale going. to be honest i have no idea whos produced any of my other favorite bands as someone else has said. so idk but im pretty sure that lillywhite producing it only creates more hype for the hardcores, but probably wont transition into sales...

[coldengrey12]

No, DMB will sell a shit load of albums no matter who is producing.

No. Most casual fans don't give a fuck about producers

:thumbsup

[mdmarvich]

Hopefully Lillywhite producing will HURT album sales...

[SpecialAgent007]

Record sales are shrinking more and more every year. Very few acts move a lot of units these days, and while DMB is certain to go platinum and hit #1 in the first week, this will probably be their lowest selling album. It's just the nature of where the industry is going. Lillywhite can do little to change the fact that people are simply consuming music in different ways nowadays.

What will be most interesting to me is whether or not they'll allow this song on Spotify right out of the gates. The label will likely want to withhold this from streaming services for awhile as it's one of the few releases they have that actually will generate relatively solid album sales, but DMB also has the clout to think forward and progressively by letting this drop on Spotify and other streaming sites on day one.

Then again, with the management DMB has, you have to wonder why they're still with a major label at all in 2012. I have no idea how long their latest contract runs, but if they were to skip signing another, I'd think more of them as musicians, businessmen and industry leaders.

Ticket sales should be steady as usual especially after an almost-off year, and for their own sake, DMB drives far more revenue selling concert tickets. I don't think the Lillywhite angle will affect this so much as DMB has always been an in-demand ticket.

[SpecialAgent007]

Hopefully Lillywhite producing will HURT album sales...

Silly statement.

There's nothing wrong with hits. Some of DMB's best songs are Lillywhite-produced hits. Music should be so good that no one can resist it despite preferences that favor different genre's. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being insanely good, which I think anyone with a lick of sense would hope for. And if something is truly insanely good, it should help record sales when you already have an established name like DMB.

But this whole idea of music needing to be less accessible to be good is just absurd and incredibly narrow minded.

[mdmarvich]

Silly statement.

There's nothing wrong with hits. Some of DMB's best songs are Lillywhite-produced hits. Music should be so good that no one can resist it despite preferences that favor different genre's. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being insanely good, which I think anyone with a lick of sense would hope for. And if something is truly insanely good, it should help record sales when you already have an established name like DMB.

But this whole idea of music needing to be less accessible to be good is just absurd and incredibly narrow minded.

Point taken. unfortunately today when I hear the term "hits" and "DMB" in the same sentence I immediately think of I Did It, The Space Between, and Everday instead of Ants, DDTW, Billies, and Too Much. But you're right, lillywhite is back so we could go back to the days where the singles are actually good music.

That being said, I'm still holding out hope for a jam album...5 songs, no lyrics which would obvioulsy kill album sales :D

[ShotgunDMB]

DMB doesnt need to be on a major label. They should just release music themselves. They're gonna go platinum regardless.

[The41stStone]

Hoping for studio sessions video as part of the album

[xnad]

Lillywhite attached gets me very happy. I agree that some of their best stuff was done with him producing. Dreaming Tree, The stone, Two Step?? Im sorry they were golden with that man. After the whole Lillywhite session leak and all the problems that followed, I was disappointed that they never got back with him sooner. He is a great producer. He has worked with so many great bands and I think it will have a direct impact on sales. The casual average listener with any kind of music knowledge might pick it up just based on that fact. Me, Im gonna get it either way. But I do think its going to boost sales a bit just based on their history alone. I know some friends that just laughed at Everyday and never looked back. They are looking now.

[Primetime41]

DMB doesnt need to be on a major label. They should just release music themselves. They're gonna go platinum regardless.

They signed a contract.

[hmich176]

DMB doesnt need to be on a major label. They should just release music themselves. They're gonna go platinum regardless.
Hopefully they will go to ATO when their contract ends.

[zajDmB1]

I really don't think it will have any noticeable impact. Between new fans from BW that will be looking forward and maybe even a little PP impact and everyone who just buys new DMB no matter who produced, the amount of people that buy records for producers and/or will return to DMB because of LW is not going to be very substantial.

The only sales impact it would have is if the record is awesome because of him and it's reviewed extremely well. So it could be a post-release sales boost, but not necessarily a everyone buy it first day/week sale boost.

[dobyblue]

DMB doesnt need to be on a major label. They should just release music themselves. They're gonna go platinum regardless.

You're right but I guess they're happy with RCA or they wouldn't have re-signed.

Trent Reznor said he made more money off the sales of his first independent release "The Slip" than he made off With Teeth or Year Zero which were through Interscope. That's pretty fucked when you ALSO consider that for the first two weeks he gave the album away for free in a multiple of formats including high resolution 24-bit/96kHz .flac files AND told people they could let other people copy it.

[zajDmB1]

You're right but I guess they're happy with RCA or they wouldn't have re-signed.

Trent Reznor said he made more money off the sales of his first independent release "The Slip" than he made off With Teeth or Year Zero which were through Interscope. That's pretty fucked when you ALSO consider that for the first two weeks he gave the album away for free in a multiple of formats including high resolution 24-bit/96kHz .flac files AND told people they could let other people copy it.

I get the feeling they really don't care at this point. Since they are a band that has always brought in the bulk of their income from touring, I doubt record sales have ever really been a huge issue for them since maybe the mid-90s. Obviously, they still make a decent amount of money, but relative to tour revenues it's not that much. So why put in all this time/effort/money to set up your system of self-releasing, when you can just have other people do it basically for free.

Now, having said that, RL is so set-up at this point, the whole system is basically in place anyway, but the point still stands. They may just not care enough about record sales because it's not a substantial part of their overall revenue.

[SpotlightEyes]

Lillywhite will have a huge impact on sales. By producing the album, it won't suck, therefore will be worth buying, therefore will sell more than if he had not produced it.

So yeah. By name? No.

[ExistenceNow]

Phillip Phillips will have much much more of an impact than the Lillywhite name.

[som3d3vil34]

If they slap a sticker on there that says "From the Producer of U2 and DMB's Crash" I think it would help.

[TMoore4075]

Stickers require physical cd's. These kids these days don't know what that is. lol

As someone had said if it turns out to be really good people will buy it but not directly because Lillywhite's name is on it.

[SpecialAgent007]

If they slap a sticker on there that says "From the Producer of U2 and DMB's Crash" I think it would help.

Maybe in 1997.

Nowadays it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the difference in total units sold in a world where they marketed this album in any way, shape or form whatsoever would only be marginally better than in a world where they dropped this on the market with no extra push whatsoever. When it comes to album sales nowadays, unless you have a huge smash hit like Adele, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift, you're only moving product based on your established customer base, or better put, your fan base. Actually, even way better put, your tribe!

So again, you've just gotta be honest...why would a band that's never truly had incredible mainstream success in the popular music world benefit from outdated marketing tactics in 2012?

DMB has always been a band with a huge tribe of semi-big fans to hardcore fans (and I say "semi-big" respectfully, because even by general "hardcore fan" standards, a semi-big DMB fan is probably a far bigger fan of DMB proportionally to the same general level of fan of just about any given mainstream/popular act), but they've rarely had the super-hit.

Really, have they ever?

Have they ever had a song as big as "Rolling in the Deep" or "Love Story" on popular radio?

No.

But who cares?

And I say that with absolutely no disrespect to Taylor Swift or Adele who I respect as writers, performers, musicians, entertainers, people, etc...

DMB has been able to maintain a huge tribe of fans that fill arenas, stadiums, amphitheaters, hell, Central Park, year after year for a long time now. That's what matters. Those are the people that are most likely to be buying your record.

And you don't have to remind at least a quarter of them that something's coming.

They know before the e-mails and the singles and the semi-official Twitter updates.

They just know. They're fans.

And for DMB, the reality of the matter is that given the size of their tribe, that relatively small sector of their tribe is large enough to easily secure a number 1 debut on the charts these days. The actual units sold number wouldn't rock the boat much 10-15 years ago, but we live in very, very different times now.

So what's the point of all this?

Who gives a flying fuck about record sales when it doesn't mean shit anymore?

Welcome to the future.

It's a beautiful fucking place where the measure of success actually has something to do with it's artistic value, because for the first time since some shady pieces of used-car dealership shit, these fucking joke-ass bookkeepers, started thinking about radio in terms of units of time that allowed them to calculate a formula to maximize advertising revenue while playing as little music as possible (especially music that is "a little out there," you know, shit that might make people switch stations...) ...fucking run-on sentence...I'm passionate about this shit...did you feel it just get real?

Let's try again.

For the first time in a long time, the art is truly starting to matter again as it relates to actual revenue for an artist.

If you can't play live, you're fucking toast!

If you put out an album with one good song, you're fucking toast!

If your Twitter is run by a marketing team, you're fucking toast!

You're a flash in the pan at the absolute best, and chances are you were too fucking stupid to secure a deal that would even allow you to profit somewhat on your profoundly shallow, meaningless "success."

Ask Lady Gaga how shit goes when it comes to getting paid and thinking you can do it all?

Oh wait, she had to file for bankruptcy a couple years ago after being arguably the biggest act of the year on just about every fucking level an act can drive revenue on (for someone other than the act when you're fucking stupid enough to sign a bullshit 360 deal).

(Google (Fuck Google, www.duckduckgo.com that shit!) that shit (!!!) if you don't believe me. Most are flabbergasted. Their tiny worlds where some fantasy-based ideas about success exist still haven't crumbled yet. Sad. Wake up already. The "internet" age is almost done and gone, giving way to the specific-use "app" age and you still haven't learned to LEARN via all this information that's so easily searchable in the internet age???)

(Fuck it. Who gives a shit?)

(It's the art that matters anyways.)

Bottom line, it's a huge fucking waste of time to be worried about antiquated measures of success.

They mean NOTHING in 2012!

Another way...

They don't mean a fucking thing in 2012!

Nothing!

Not! A! Thing!

At the end of the year, you add up all the revenue these fucking "mainstream" bands drive and DMB will be among the top without any of the "mainstream" measures of success like #1 hits and American Idol appearances and whatever the hell else these fucking idiots think matters. They'll move records and make RCA feel less bad about how colossally irrelevant they are now and forever moving forward and they'll have one of the highest grossing tours of the year. They'll also sell a shit-ton of obscenely high-margin merchandise.

Done fucking deal.

Why?

They have one of the biggest fucking tribes in the industry, and tribes care about shit that matters.

Tribes care about the art.

And great art is what drives people to spend their money, because great art means so much to people that it becomes part of their identity, and people want to experience it as much as possible and want to share it.

Deluxe editions. T-Shirts. Live releases. Stickers.

GREATNESS drives people to spend money.

Why does Apple have a relatively small share of the market yet almost all of the profits? They care about creating a great experience for their customers first and foremost! They're beholden to their customers! They say "fuck you" to the shareholders while making undisclosed financial investments in the billions of dollars to secure LCD supplies in ultra-high volumes at great price points so they can shock every pundit and release the iPad not at the expected $999 price point, but at a $499 price point that over 60 million people don't seem to have any problem with over the last two years. You don't have to give all the answers, you just have to make sure you can answer to your customers, to your ever-growing tribe, when it counts. A pure mainstream doesn't matter when you have a tribe that believes in your product and will shell out their hard-earned cash to get it.

And they'll tell everyone they know about it too.

What better marketing is their than that?

And DMB really should thank God or atheism if it's your faith thing for tribes, because if not for tribes (secured only from actually continually proving that you have talent and the work ethic to make it mean something, at least for awhile...) (anyone want to really knock the big 3-ish-Lillywhite-Sessions-4-ish era?), they wouldn't have survived a decade filled with music that is half-assed at best, underachieving, utterly pitiful in it's obviousness, in that it seeks only to achieve some sad fucking semblance of mainstream (MAINSTREAM?!?) success so some executive desk jockey piece of shit who knows little about actually producing meaningful art can pretend to be mildly-enthused because he has another excuse to avoid innovation for a little while and can attempt to capitalize on pre-established tribes while the "tribe leaders" follow a fucking nitwit into the fiery furnace of artistic hell for the sake of maximizing advertising revenue by being as fucking relentlessly boring as possible.

(That was a terrible, terrible paragraph. Walter White wouldn't say "terrible, terrible," so nor will I. And he did anyways. So...over it.)

Oh yeah, I had a point aside from the experimental Lefsetz-inspired ranting...

Marketing is bullshit. Fuck it.

(And don't drink and post as you come down from coffee-induced insomnia after trying to drive through a Thursday so you could take Friday to FOCUS ON YOUR ART!!!)

If the music is good, people will pay to hear it in a lot of different ways.

Moral of the story?

Focus on making GREAT music, and you might actually make a profit too.

You should www.duckduckgo.com (fuck Google, again) Amanda Palmer Kickstarter to see what happens when a relatively unknown act to the mainstream busts ass the right way for the sake of the art that they believe in. It's inspiring.

The project might not drive the same gross revenue (but without a single solitary shred of doubt, it will have a better net profit when you skip all the accounting tricks that go along with being on a major label), but Amanda stands to actually see real profits land in her pocket, and all the while she won't have to be whoring her art out to do it.

Enough.

I applaud anyone who made it through this. It was exactly what I needed. Brain worn down. Ready to sleep.

It's all true though. The future is here, and it is glorious.

I hope DMB joins the future soon.

[thestand]

Relatively unknown and Amanda Palmer don't belong in the same sentence, unless your relation is only the top grossing acts of all time. And that's the least ridiculous thing in that post.

[TwoStep2888]

Jesus Christ

[sean52692]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4dhmC7MB9Q

[TwoStep2888]

FUN FACT That post was actually Obamas first draft for his 2012 State of the Union address

[vols12]

maybe over time casual fans of the older sound will have a renewed interest in the band, but overall this won't matter for sales.

in a way, this is why I'm so happy about this. it shows that the band is reunited with lillywhite for the right reason, because they feel that they can create their best music. it's not to appease fans.

[zajDmB1]

Instead of reading post #45, just read my post #40. It's the same thing but shorter by about 8 million words.

[vols12]

Jesus Christ

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[BotheDMBFan]

Maybe in 1997.

Nowadays it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the difference in total units sold in a world where they marketed this album in any way, shape or form whatsoever would only be marginally better than in a world where they dropped this on the market with no extra push whatsoever. When it comes to album sales nowadays, unless you have a huge smash hit like Adele, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift, you're only moving product based on your established customer base, or better put, your fan base. Actually, even way better put, your tribe!

So again, you've just gotta be honest...why would a band that's never truly had incredible mainstream success in the popular music world benefit from outdated marketing tactics in 2012?

DMB has always been a band with a huge tribe of semi-big fans to hardcore fans (and I say "semi-big" respectfully, because even by general "hardcore fan" standards, a semi-big DMB fan is probably a far bigger fan of DMB proportionally to the same general level of fan of just about any given mainstream/popular act), but they've rarely had the super-hit.

Really, have they ever?

Have they ever had a song as big as "Rolling in the Deep" or "Love Story" on popular radio?

No.

But who cares?

And I say that with absolutely no disrespect to Taylor Swift or Adele who I respect as writers, performers, musicians, entertainers, people, etc...

DMB has been able to maintain a huge tribe of fans that fill arenas, stadiums, amphitheaters, hell, Central Park, year after year for a long time now. That's what matters. Those are the people that are most likely to be buying your record.

And you don't have to remind at least a quarter of them that something's coming.

They know before the e-mails and the singles and the semi-official Twitter updates.

They just know. They're fans.

And for DMB, the reality of the matter is that given the size of their tribe, that relatively small sector of their tribe is large enough to easily secure a number 1 debut on the charts these days. The actual units sold number wouldn't rock the boat much 10-15 years ago, but we live in very, very different times now.

So what's the point of all this?

Who gives a flying fuck about record sales when it doesn't mean shit anymore?

Welcome to the future.

It's a beautiful fucking place where the measure of success actually has something to do with it's artistic value, because for the first time since some shady pieces of used-car dealership shit, these fucking joke-ass bookkeepers, started thinking about radio in terms of units of time that allowed them to calculate a formula to maximize advertising revenue while playing as little music as possible (especially music that is "a little out there," you know, shit that might make people switch stations...) ...fucking run-on sentence...I'm passionate about this shit...did you feel it just get real?

Let's try again.

For the first time in a long time, the art is truly starting to matter again as it relates to actual revenue for an artist.

If you can't play live, you're fucking toast!

If you put out an album with one good song, you're fucking toast!

If your Twitter is run by a marketing team, you're fucking toast!

You're a flash in the pan at the absolute best, and chances are you were too fucking stupid to secure a deal that would even allow you to profit somewhat on your profoundly shallow, meaningless "success."

Ask Lady Gaga how shit goes when it comes to getting paid and thinking you can do it all?

Oh wait, she had to file for bankruptcy a couple years ago after being arguably the biggest act of the year on just about every fucking level an act can drive revenue on (for someone other than the act when you're fucking stupid enough to sign a bullshit 360 deal).

(Google (Fuck Google, www.duckduckgo.com that shit!) that shit (!!!) if you don't believe me. Most are flabbergasted. Their tiny worlds where some fantasy-based ideas about success exist still haven't crumbled yet. Sad. Wake up already. The "internet" age is almost done and gone, giving way to the specific-use "app" age and you still haven't learned to LEARN via all this information that's so easily searchable in the internet age???)

(Fuck it. Who gives a shit?)

(It's the art that matters anyways.)

Bottom line, it's a huge fucking waste of time to be worried about antiquated measures of success.

They mean NOTHING in 2012!

Another way...

They don't mean a fucking thing in 2012!

Nothing!

Not! A! Thing!

At the end of the year, you add up all the revenue these fucking "mainstream" bands drive and DMB will be among the top without any of the "mainstream" measures of success like #1 hits and American Idol appearances and whatever the hell else these fucking idiots think matters. They'll move records and make RCA feel less bad about how colossally irrelevant they are now and forever moving forward and they'll have one of the highest grossing tours of the year. They'll also sell a shit-ton of obscenely high-margin merchandise.

Done fucking deal.

Why?

They have one of the biggest fucking tribes in the industry, and tribes care about shit that matters.

Tribes care about the art.

And great art is what drives people to spend their money, because great art means so much to people that it becomes part of their identity, and people want to experience it as much as possible and want to share it.

Deluxe editions. T-Shirts. Live releases. Stickers.

GREATNESS drives people to spend money.

Why does Apple have a relatively small share of the market yet almost all of the profits? They care about creating a great experience for their customers first and foremost! They're beholden to their customers! They say "fuck you" to the shareholders while making undisclosed financial investments in the billions of dollars to secure LCD supplies in ultra-high volumes at great price points so they can shock every pundit and release the iPad not at the expected $999 price point, but at a $499 price point that over 60 million people don't seem to have any problem with over the last two years. You don't have to give all the answers, you just have to make sure you can answer to your customers, to your ever-growing tribe, when it counts. A pure mainstream doesn't matter when you have a tribe that believes in your product and will shell out their hard-earned cash to get it.

And they'll tell everyone they know about it too.

What better marketing is their than that?

And DMB really should thank God or atheism if it's your faith thing for tribes, because if not for tribes (secured only from actually continually proving that you have talent and the work ethic to make it mean something, at least for awhile...) (anyone want to really knock the big 3-ish-Lillywhite-Sessions-4-ish era?), they wouldn't have survived a decade filled with music that is half-assed at best, underachieving, utterly pitiful in it's obviousness, in that it seeks only to achieve some sad fucking semblance of mainstream (MAINSTREAM?!?) success so some executive desk jockey piece of shit who knows little about actually producing meaningful art can pretend to be mildly-enthused because he has another excuse to avoid innovation for a little while and can attempt to capitalize on pre-established tribes while the "tribe leaders" follow a fucking nitwit into the fiery furnace of artistic hell for the sake of maximizing advertising revenue by being as fucking relentlessly boring as possible.

(That was a terrible, terrible paragraph. Walter White wouldn't say "terrible, terrible," so nor will I. And he did anyways. So...over it.)

Oh yeah, I had a point aside from the experimental Lefsetz-inspired ranting...

Marketing is bullshit. Fuck it.

(And don't drink and post as you come down from coffee-induced insomnia after trying to drive through a Thursday so you could take Friday to FOCUS ON YOUR ART!!!)

If the music is good, people will pay to hear it in a lot of different ways.

Moral of the story?

Focus on making GREAT music, and you might actually make a profit too.

You should www.duckduckgo.com (fuck Google, again) Amanda Palmer Kickstarter to see what happens when a relatively unknown act to the mainstream busts ass the right way for the sake of the art that they believe in. It's inspiring.

The project might not drive the same gross revenue (but without a single solitary shred of doubt, it will have a better net profit when you skip all the accounting tricks that go along with being on a major label), but Amanda stands to actually see real profits land in her pocket, and all the while she won't have to be whoring her art out to do it.

Enough.

I applaud anyone who made it through this. It was exactly what I needed. Brain worn down. Ready to sleep.

It's all true though. The future is here, and it is glorious.

I hope DMB joins the future soon.

It's times like these that I really respect and love Nickelback,

[BotheDMBFan]

If they slap a sticker on there that says "From the Producer of U2 and DMB's Crash" I think it would help.

U2, DMB's Crash, Talking Heads (even though the album he did with them SUCKED. That'd be a good sticker.

[Dannyyankou]

Maybe in 1997.

Nowadays it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the difference in total units sold in a world where they marketed this album in any way, shape or form whatsoever would only be marginally better than in a world where they dropped this on the market with no extra push whatsoever. When it comes to album sales nowadays, unless you have a huge smash hit like Adele, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift, you're only moving product based on your established customer base, or better put, your fan base. Actually, even way better put, your tribe!

So again, you've just gotta be honest...why would a band that's never truly had incredible mainstream success in the popular music world benefit from outdated marketing tactics in 2012?

DMB has always been a band with a huge tribe of semi-big fans to hardcore fans (and I say "semi-big" respectfully, because even by general "hardcore fan" standards, a semi-big DMB fan is probably a far bigger fan of DMB proportionally to the same general level of fan of just about any given mainstream/popular act), but they've rarely had the super-hit.

Really, have they ever?

Have they ever had a song as big as "Rolling in the Deep" or "Love Story" on popular radio?

No.

But who cares?

And I say that with absolutely no disrespect to Taylor Swift or Adele who I respect as writers, performers, musicians, entertainers, people, etc...

DMB has been able to maintain a huge tribe of fans that fill arenas, stadiums, amphitheaters, hell, Central Park, year after year for a long time now. That's what matters. Those are the people that are most likely to be buying your record.

And you don't have to remind at least a quarter of them that something's coming.

They know before the e-mails and the singles and the semi-official Twitter updates.

They just know. They're fans.

And for DMB, the reality of the matter is that given the size of their tribe, that relatively small sector of their tribe is large enough to easily secure a number 1 debut on the charts these days. The actual units sold number wouldn't rock the boat much 10-15 years ago, but we live in very, very different times now.

So what's the point of all this?

Who gives a flying fuck about record sales when it doesn't mean shit anymore?

Welcome to the future.

It's a beautiful fucking place where the measure of success actually has something to do with it's artistic value, because for the first time since some shady pieces of used-car dealership shit, these fucking joke-ass bookkeepers, started thinking about radio in terms of units of time that allowed them to calculate a formula to maximize advertising revenue while playing as little music as possible (especially music that is "a little out there," you know, shit that might make people switch stations...) ...fucking run-on sentence...I'm passionate about this shit...did you feel it just get real?

Let's try again.

For the first time in a long time, the art is truly starting to matter again as it relates to actual revenue for an artist.

If you can't play live, you're fucking toast!

If you put out an album with one good song, you're fucking toast!

If your Twitter is run by a marketing team, you're fucking toast!

You're a flash in the pan at the absolute best, and chances are you were too fucking stupid to secure a deal that would even allow you to profit somewhat on your profoundly shallow, meaningless "success."

Ask Lady Gaga how shit goes when it comes to getting paid and thinking you can do it all?

Oh wait, she had to file for bankruptcy a couple years ago after being arguably the biggest act of the year on just about every fucking level an act can drive revenue on (for someone other than the act when you're fucking stupid enough to sign a bullshit 360 deal).

(Google (Fuck Google, www.duckduckgo.com that shit!) that shit (!!!) if you don't believe me. Most are flabbergasted. Their tiny worlds where some fantasy-based ideas about success exist still haven't crumbled yet. Sad. Wake up already. The "internet" age is almost done and gone, giving way to the specific-use "app" age and you still haven't learned to LEARN via all this information that's so easily searchable in the internet age???)

(Fuck it. Who gives a shit?)

(It's the art that matters anyways.)

Bottom line, it's a huge fucking waste of time to be worried about antiquated measures of success.

They mean NOTHING in 2012!

Another way...

They don't mean a fucking thing in 2012!

Nothing!

Not! A! Thing!

At the end of the year, you add up all the revenue these fucking "mainstream" bands drive and DMB will be among the top without any of the "mainstream" measures of success like #1 hits and American Idol appearances and whatever the hell else these fucking idiots think matters. They'll move records and make RCA feel less bad about how colossally irrelevant they are now and forever moving forward and they'll have one of the highest grossing tours of the year. They'll also sell a shit-ton of obscenely high-margin merchandise.

Done fucking deal.

Why?

They have one of the biggest fucking tribes in the industry, and tribes care about shit that matters.

Tribes care about the art.

And great art is what drives people to spend their money, because great art means so much to people that it becomes part of their identity, and people want to experience it as much as possible and want to share it.

Deluxe editions. T-Shirts. Live releases. Stickers.

GREATNESS drives people to spend money.

Why does Apple have a relatively small share of the market yet almost all of the profits? They care about creating a great experience for their customers first and foremost! They're beholden to their customers! They say "fuck you" to the shareholders while making undisclosed financial investments in the billions of dollars to secure LCD supplies in ultra-high volumes at great price points so they can shock every pundit and release the iPad not at the expected $999 price point, but at a $499 price point that over 60 million people don't seem to have any problem with over the last two years. You don't have to give all the answers, you just have to make sure you can answer to your customers, to your ever-growing tribe, when it counts. A pure mainstream doesn't matter when you have a tribe that believes in your product and will shell out their hard-earned cash to get it.

And they'll tell everyone they know about it too.

What better marketing is their than that?

And DMB really should thank God or atheism if it's your faith thing for tribes, because if not for tribes (secured only from actually continually proving that you have talent and the work ethic to make it mean something, at least for awhile...) (anyone want to really knock the big 3-ish-Lillywhite-Sessions-4-ish era?), they wouldn't have survived a decade filled with music that is half-assed at best, underachieving, utterly pitiful in it's obviousness, in that it seeks only to achieve some sad fucking semblance of mainstream (MAINSTREAM?!?) success so some executive desk jockey piece of shit who knows little about actually producing meaningful art can pretend to be mildly-enthused because he has another excuse to avoid innovation for a little while and can attempt to capitalize on pre-established tribes while the "tribe leaders" follow a fucking nitwit into the fiery furnace of artistic hell for the sake of maximizing advertising revenue by being as fucking relentlessly boring as possible.

(That was a terrible, terrible paragraph. Walter White wouldn't say "terrible, terrible," so nor will I. And he did anyways. So...over it.)

Oh yeah, I had a point aside from the experimental Lefsetz-inspired ranting...

Marketing is bullshit. Fuck it.

(And don't drink and post as you come down from coffee-induced insomnia after trying to drive through a Thursday so you could take Friday to FOCUS ON YOUR ART!!!)

If the music is good, people will pay to hear it in a lot of different ways.

Moral of the story?

Focus on making GREAT music, and you might actually make a profit too.

You should www.duckduckgo.com (fuck Google, again) Amanda Palmer Kickstarter to see what happens when a relatively unknown act to the mainstream busts ass the right way for the sake of the art that they believe in. It's inspiring.

The project might not drive the same gross revenue (but without a single solitary shred of doubt, it will have a better net profit when you skip all the accounting tricks that go along with being on a major label), but Amanda stands to actually see real profits land in her pocket, and all the while she won't have to be whoring her art out to do it.

Enough.

I applaud anyone who made it through this. It was exactly what I needed. Brain worn down. Ready to sleep.

It's all true though. The future is here, and it is glorious.

I hope DMB joins the future soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[justink]

instantly regretting clicking on this thread...

[TwoStep2888]

♫ If you want to view paradise, view it.
Anything you want to, do it.
Want to change the world?
There's nothing to it. ♫

[justink]

♫ If you want to view paradise, view it.
Anything you want to, do it.
Want to change the world?
There's nothing to it. ♫

Hey, i just met you, and this is crazy! but here's my number, so call me maybe?

[mrignatious]

♫ If you want to view paradise, view it.
Anything you want to, do it.
Want to change the world?
There's nothing to it. ♫

:lol:lol:lol

[hmich176]

Nowadays it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the difference in total units sold in a world where they marketed this album in any way, shape or form whatsoever would only be marginally better than in a world where they dropped this on the market with no extra push whatsoever. When it comes to album sales nowadays, unless you have a huge smash hit like Adele, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift, you're only moving product based on your established customer base, or better put, your fan base. Actually, even way better put, your tribe!

Do you know anything about advertising?

[som3d3vil34]

Maybe in 1997.

Nowadays it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the difference in total units sold in a world where they marketed this album in any way, shape or form whatsoever would only be marginally better than in a world where they dropped this on the market with no extra push whatsoever. When it comes to album sales nowadays, unless you have a huge smash hit like Adele, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift, you're only moving product based on your established customer base, or better put, your fan base. Actually, even way better put, your tribe!

So again, you've just gotta be honest...why would a band that's never truly had incredible mainstream success in the popular music world benefit from outdated marketing tactics in 2012?

DMB has always been a band with a huge tribe of semi-big fans to hardcore fans (and I say "semi-big" respectfully, because even by general "hardcore fan" standards, a semi-big DMB fan is probably a far bigger fan of DMB proportionally to the same general level of fan of just about any given mainstream/popular act), but they've rarely had the super-hit.

Really, have they ever?

Have they ever had a song as big as "Rolling in the Deep" or "Love Story" on popular radio?

No.

But who cares?

And I say that with absolutely no disrespect to Taylor Swift or Adele who I respect as writers, performers, musicians, entertainers, people, etc...

DMB has been able to maintain a huge tribe of fans that fill arenas, stadiums, amphitheaters, hell, Central Park, year after year for a long time now. That's what matters. Those are the people that are most likely to be buying your record.

And you don't have to remind at least a quarter of them that something's coming.

They know before the e-mails and the singles and the semi-official Twitter updates.

They just know. They're fans.

And for DMB, the reality of the matter is that given the size of their tribe, that relatively small sector of their tribe is large enough to easily secure a number 1 debut on the charts these days. The actual units sold number wouldn't rock the boat much 10-15 years ago, but we live in very, very different times now.

So what's the point of all this?

Who gives a flying fuck about record sales when it doesn't mean shit anymore?

Welcome to the future.

It's a beautiful fucking place where the measure of success actually has something to do with it's artistic value, because for the first time since some shady pieces of used-car dealership shit, these fucking joke-ass bookkeepers, started thinking about radio in terms of units of time that allowed them to calculate a formula to maximize advertising revenue while playing as little music as possible (especially music that is "a little out there," you know, shit that might make people switch stations...) ...fucking run-on sentence...I'm passionate about this shit...did you feel it just get real?

Let's try again.

For the first time in a long time, the art is truly starting to matter again as it relates to actual revenue for an artist.

If you can't play live, you're fucking toast!

If you put out an album with one good song, you're fucking toast!

If your Twitter is run by a marketing team, you're fucking toast!

You're a flash in the pan at the absolute best, and chances are you were too fucking stupid to secure a deal that would even allow you to profit somewhat on your profoundly shallow, meaningless "success."

Ask Lady Gaga how shit goes when it comes to getting paid and thinking you can do it all?

Oh wait, she had to file for bankruptcy a couple years ago after being arguably the biggest act of the year on just about every fucking level an act can drive revenue on (for someone other than the act when you're fucking stupid enough to sign a bullshit 360 deal).

(Google (Fuck Google, www.duckduckgo.com (http://www.duckduckgo.com) that shit!) that shit (!!!) if you don't believe me. Most are flabbergasted. Their tiny worlds where some fantasy-based ideas about success exist still haven't crumbled yet. Sad. Wake up already. The "internet" age is almost done and gone, giving way to the specific-use "app" age and you still haven't learned to LEARN via all this information that's so easily searchable in the internet age???)

(Fuck it. Who gives a shit?)

(It's the art that matters anyways.)

Bottom line, it's a huge fucking waste of time to be worried about antiquated measures of success.

They mean NOTHING in 2012!

Another way...

They don't mean a fucking thing in 2012!

Nothing!

Not! A! Thing!

At the end of the year, you add up all the revenue these fucking "mainstream" bands drive and DMB will be among the top without any of the "mainstream" measures of success like #1 hits and American Idol appearances and whatever the hell else these fucking idiots think matters. They'll move records and make RCA feel less bad about how colossally irrelevant they are now and forever moving forward and they'll have one of the highest grossing tours of the year. They'll also sell a shit-ton of obscenely high-margin merchandise.

Done fucking deal.

Why?

They have one of the biggest fucking tribes in the industry, and tribes care about shit that matters.

Tribes care about the art.

And great art is what drives people to spend their money, because great art means so much to people that it becomes part of their identity, and people want to experience it as much as possible and want to share it.

Deluxe editions. T-Shirts. Live releases. Stickers.

GREATNESS drives people to spend money.

Why does Apple have a relatively small share of the market yet almost all of the profits? They care about creating a great experience for their customers first and foremost! They're beholden to their customers! They say "fuck you" to the shareholders while making undisclosed financial investments in the billions of dollars to secure LCD supplies in ultra-high volumes at great price points so they can shock every pundit and release the iPad not at the expected $999 price point, but at a $499 price point that over 60 million people don't seem to have any problem with over the last two years. You don't have to give all the answers, you just have to make sure you can answer to your customers, to your ever-growing tribe, when it counts. A pure mainstream doesn't matter when you have a tribe that believes in your product and will shell out their hard-earned cash to get it.

And they'll tell everyone they know about it too.

What better marketing is their than that?

And DMB really should thank God or atheism if it's your faith thing for tribes, because if not for tribes (secured only from actually continually proving that you have talent and the work ethic to make it mean something, at least for awhile...) (anyone want to really knock the big 3-ish-Lillywhite-Sessions-4-ish era?), they wouldn't have survived a decade filled with music that is half-assed at best, underachieving, utterly pitiful in it's obviousness, in that it seeks only to achieve some sad fucking semblance of mainstream (MAINSTREAM?!?) success so some executive desk jockey piece of shit who knows little about actually producing meaningful art can pretend to be mildly-enthused because he has another excuse to avoid innovation for a little while and can attempt to capitalize on pre-established tribes while the "tribe leaders" follow a fucking nitwit into the fiery furnace of artistic hell for the sake of maximizing advertising revenue by being as fucking relentlessly boring as possible.

(That was a terrible, terrible paragraph. Walter White wouldn't say "terrible, terrible," so nor will I. And he did anyways. So...over it.)

Oh yeah, I had a point aside from the experimental Lefsetz-inspired ranting...

Marketing is bullshit. Fuck it.

(And don't drink and post as you come down from coffee-induced insomnia after trying to drive through a Thursday so you could take Friday to FOCUS ON YOUR ART!!!)

If the music is good, people will pay to hear it in a lot of different ways.

Moral of the story?

Focus on making GREAT music, and you might actually make a profit too.

You should www.duckduckgo.com (http://www.duckduckgo.com) (fuck Google, again) Amanda Palmer Kickstarter to see what happens when a relatively unknown act to the mainstream busts ass the right way for the sake of the art that they believe in. It's inspiring.

The project might not drive the same gross revenue (but without a single solitary shred of doubt, it will have a better net profit when you skip all the accounting tricks that go along with being on a major label), but Amanda stands to actually see real profits land in her pocket, and all the while she won't have to be whoring her art out to do it.

Enough.

I applaud anyone who made it through this. It was exactly what I needed. Brain worn down. Ready to sleep.

It's all true though. The future is here, and it is glorious.

I hope DMB joins the future soon.

I am so ridiculously honored that this thing was a response to my post. This is great.


Also, yea so it looks like college blew your mind :lol

[jray1823]

That post was awesome:

If you can't play live, you're fucking Toast! :lol

Marketing is Bullshit, Fuck it!:lol

[King Harvest]

I've been lurking around here for a while, just reading snippets of speculation on the new album, but after reading this I had to make an account just to say, that may be one of the greatest posts I've ever read on a message board/forum ever. Bravo sir, bravo.

[som3d3vil34]

Cant decide if the guy is a hippie or a hipster. Maybe I'll duckduckgo.com the definitions because fuck Google.

[BotheDMBFan]

Brian, you're fucking toast.

[SpecialAgent007]

So you're telling me that none of y'all read Lefsetz?

[BotheDMBFan]

We all read your novel, absolutely.

[SpecialAgent007]

Relatively unknown and Amanda Palmer don't belong in the same sentence, unless your relation is only the top grossing acts of all time. And that's the least ridiculous thing in that post.

I'll only defend this as much of what I said was just overtly over the top in blatant imitation of a certain blogger I thought more people around here would have read.

But Amanda Palmer is not a mainstream act, so yes, that's basically what I meant. Most people don't know who the hell she is, but she has a well-developed and devoted fan base, and that's what matters. It was a compliment.

Anyways, here's what she had to say about it and dealing with a bit about how fun it is to deal with labels.

From: Amanda Palmer
Subject: Re: Kickstarter

hey bob

don’t know if you’ve noticed, but yesterday i launched the 30-day kickstarter for my new album, “amanda palmer & the grand theft orchestra”.

at the moment i’m writing this, we’ve reached over $250,000 after only one day of being live. go look:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour

that’s about $50k MORE than the scheduled recording budget i wouldn’t have been given if i’d stayed on roadrunner…AND WE’RE ONLY ON THE FIRST DAY.
i hope we reach $600k or more by the time we’re done. or a million. who knows? sky’s the limit.

since getting released, i’ve been waiting to put out - on my own terms - a big, legit solo album.
for THREE YEARS i’ve waited….three years of tweaking and agonizing over the perfect online self-release system, the perfect management team.

when i fought to get off roadrunner (my old band the dresden dolls signed in 2004; i tore off and went solo in 2009), my main problem is that they had NO IDEA how to work WITH ME.

they didn’t understand why i didn’t want to spend money and energy on stupid shit, wasting time where our audience and potential audience WASNT…opening for vapid bands, putting our songs on lame film soundtracks to sub-par horror movies. our audience was too smart for that shit.

they didn’t understand why i wanted to spend marketing budgets on what they considered “unnecessary” things….like hiring an internet marketing team, building giant web systems to showcase my fans’ art and homemade videos….like spending money and time on the online fan forums.

and i was always told them: “REALLY? you don’t get this? you don’t get why it’s not only important, but why it’s going to MAKE US MONEY? ok FUCK IT, we’ll pay for it ourselves.”

so we did. i was happy to spend the money out of our pockets: this shit OBVIOUSLY had to be done. and we were starting to make money on the road by then.

i remember one freezing chaotic day in minneapolis, on tour with the dolls in 2005….leaving soundcheck, picking up my cell and asking a frantic favor of a friend in new york (the only friend i had who was adult enough to have a checkbook at the ready, i didn’t have one on the road).

my internet marketing guy had called me, freaking. when we’d signed, the label had agreed to cover his monthly fee. now he was expecting an over-due check from the label, had been waiting six weeks, and was about to be evicted from his fucking apartment if he couldn’t get ahold of $1000. i begged my random friend to write out and mail a check it to my internet guy, promising i’d pay her back when i got to new york in a month…so he could pay his rent. i knew better than to call the label. they’d just lie and say they’d cut the check. i’d been through this 12 times already.

a few months later the label told me they wouldn’t cover our internet marketing team AT ALL while we were “between records”. they didn’t think paying someone to run our myspace and fan forums was NECESSARY unless “we had a record actively being worked”.

they didn’t get it. at. all.

THEY SERIOUSLY DIDN’T THINK THE INTERNET WAS NECESSARY UNLESS YOU HAD A RECORD TO PUSH.
they didn’t understand the value staying connected ALL THE TIME, every day, from the road, from the spaces between.

and this was 2005/2006. not the dark ages.

but still….LOST. they didn’t understand why we’d want to put the majority of our resources into connecting with our fans online.

were they on the road with us 300 nights a year? were THEY emailing & chatting online and off with these people EVERY DAY? fuck no. but i was. i knew. our fans were all geeks and gays and punks and young weirdos. ALL ONLINE ALL THE TIME. i knew the connected we did throughout the year would result in the sales later.

now, after three years OFF THE LABEL, and after ALL these collected years of talking with fans after every show, twittering daily, staying connected, singing hard, touring constantly, and answering thousands of fan emails….the result?

$250k in a day.

BAM.

fuck em.

seriously: i can’t imagine why i’d do this any other way.

love
amanda fucking palmer
www.amandapalmer.net

p.s. i just finished “strayed” by cheryl strayed and absolutely LOVED IT. thanks for the tip. and now me & cheryl and pals on twitter. amazing internet is amazing.

[SpecialAgent007]

Cant decide if the guy is a hippie or a hipster.

:lol

That actually stings.

[SpecialAgent007]

Good read for perspective related to record sales:

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2012/05/04/sales-2/

[zajDmB1]

Good read for perspective related to record sales:

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2012/05/04/sales-2/

90% of Lefsetz's emails are fantastic.

[ShotgunDMB]

It'll go platinum, nothing more. Unless they have some kind of unexpected huge radio hit.

[41ravens]

if anything it'll hurt sales cause all the kids won't like the "new" dmb sound.