Time signatures

[WesDutchMaster]

I'm confused about this. How can I count the time sig for a song, and what the heck does it mean when the first number is bigger than the second like 9/8th?

[cj4258]

That means there are nine eighth notes (or semi-quavers) in a measure. Therefore, the feel of the song is in a group of three threes. In other words, it's a duple meter so it would feel like three triplets to a measure. You would count it as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 and over again.

Then there's 12/8, which is the same thing except it feels like four triplets to a measure. You can deduce it down to two measure of 6/8 a piece.

For those meters that are not duple, like say, 11/16, you would have 11 sixteenth notes to a measure. Personally, I've grown to hate 11/16 since we had to march and play cadences in 11/16 in high school, so I won't go into too much detail. Count it like any other: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11.

[WesDutchMaster]

this is all very confusing for me. I understand [I think] the first number now so like the 9, but what does the 8 then mean in 9/8th? and why is is 8 or 16 of etc.

[jprzybys]

the second number is what gets a count. 4/4 Is 4 counts in a measure and the quarter note gets the beat. 5/4 5meas/4beat.
The 11/8 and 9/8, and eighth note gets the beat. There are easier ways of counting high number measures than countiong straight up. 7/8 is easier 1.2.1.2.1.2.3. 9/8 could be 1.2.3.1.2.3.1.2.3 and 11/8 could be 1.2.3.1.2.3.1.2.3.1.2 they cont have to be in a certain order, just have the right amount of beats there.

[Third Floor]

the bottom number shows what note gets the beat.
8-1/8th note
4=1/4 note
etc.

so in a 9/8 time sig. eachmeasure has 9 beats to the measure and 1 eighth note gets a beat. comprende?

[WesDutchMaster]

man I wish I knew music theory, it's still really confusing for me, I wish I could little to like samples

[greppson]

it really isn't that hard to understand, wes... it's a lot simpler than you think.

[WesDutchMaster]

what can I do to discover how easy it is?

[cj4258]

Learn how to waltz, Wes. All waltzes are in either 3/4 or some duple (triplet) meter, that way you know what it feels like.

I meant to stress in my first post how there are accent patterns that make counting to high numbers easier. Put an accent ont he first note of every triplet. You would then be counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9. These are the strong beats of the measure, but they are not always the accent pattern itself. Just a way to count it and make it less repetitive.

[WesDutchMaster]

Originally posted by cj4258
Learn how to waltz, Wes. All waltzes are in either 3/4 or some duple (triplet) meter, that way you know what it feels like.

I meant to stress in my first post how there are accent patterns that make counting to high numbers easier. Put an accent ont he first note of every triplet. You would then be counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9. These are the strong beats of the measure, but they are not always the accent pattern itself. Just a way to count it and make it less repetitive.

ok good, that part I understand. and I can waltz and count that one too. so a waltz is 3/4. ok. and a 4/4 would be 12 3 4 12 3 4?

[cj4258]

4/4 is a little different. Your beats are quarter notes (or quavers), so you don't really have to place an accent at the beginning of each measure. Plus, you don't have to count up through to nine or twelve.

When you're walking somewhere, anywhere, count in your head. Use the tempo of your feet. Always start with one on a left foot.

3/4:
1 2 3
L-R-L
1 2 3
R-L-R

4/4:
1 2 3 4
L-R-L-R

6/8:
1 2 3 4 5 6
L------R

9/8:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
L------R------L
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
R------L------R

12/8:
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12
L-------R------L-------R

[pr0ud3stm0nk3y]

my brain hurts

[Kshathra]

Lesson 1: Unless you're actually reading the music on a staff, IGNORE the second number. That's right, IGNORE it. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. It's only there as a reference point while reading the music. This is necessary because, in theory, the value of every note in a piece of music changes depending on how fast you tap your foot. I won't go into greater detail here unless someone asks.

With that in mind, the top number becomes very easy to understand. Whenever you listen to any song, listen to the subdivisions and just count to yourself. When you feel the music kind of... "reset" a little bit (usually accompanied by a chord change or something audible like that), start over. Odds are 9 in 10 that you'll find yourself going 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, etc. That indicates that the song is "in 4." If you go 1-2-3, etc, it's in "3." If it's 1-2-3 4-5-6, it's "in 6." (usually it'll be 6/8, but we don't have to go there). The tricky part is when you get up to seven and, being a two-syllable word, you'll probably end up spilling over into eight. Usually when you get into the bigger numbers it's better to count in groups, like 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 (that would be "in 7").

Also, some of the distinctions are more or less arbitrary, even at this level. 4 IS just 2 bars of 2, 6 IS just 2 bars of 3, and such. In this case, most just go by convention... 4 is simply more common than two, and such....

I know i didn't do a great job here, feel free to ask about which points need clarification...

Also, ignore the word "quavers." I don't know where the fuck that came from but it's probably not necessary. ;)

[cj4258]

Originally posted by Kshathra
... Also, ignore the word "quavers." I don't know where the fuck that came from but it's probably not necessary. ;)

I was going to commend you on your discussion of determining time until this line.

Sure, I may take a classical approach to my vernacular, but that's the way I was taught. Excuse me for confusing you or anyone else. My intent was to make it a little easier to understand to people who may not read take to american english as well. It is a european word, and is still used with classical guitar students.

[WesDutchMaster]

Originally posted by pr0ud3stm0nk3y
my brain hurts

huh? where did that comment by Matt come from? how is that related?

[WesDutchMaster]

and wow guys! it's getting a little clearer here through that last cj4258 and Kshathra explanation. What would you reccommend in terms of learning more about theory? are there books or something that explain it this well or can I just keep bugging you guys. :p

[darbini]

i've benefited by reading this thread, Danke schon!

[cj4258]

I don't mind you asking, chances are I may have to do a little research to answer some questions which is fine because I'm learning something too.

Bring it on, Wes.

[Kshathra]

Originally posted by cj4258
I was going to commend you on your discussion of determining time until this line.

Dude, I was just kidding. note the " ;) ." Sorry about the confusion. :)

[Kshathra]

Originally posted by WesDutchMaster
are there books or something that explain it this well or can I just keep bugging you guys. :p

There are a million music theory books out there, but when I was learning basic theory, I (personally) had greatest success through websites and just learning from other people. It was just so much less intimidating than reading a 1000 paged book by some professor who has forgotten what it's like to be a complete beginner. There are plenty of knowledgable people around on message boards like this one who would be sure to help you out (myself and cj4258 included). You can also find little online theory lessons kicking around the web was well... www.wholenote.com is a good place to start if you're a guitar player. It's up to you. Ask and thy shall recieve. :)

[WesDutchMaster]

well the next thing I would like to understand is how some chords belong together. If your verse has a certain set of say 3 chords, supposedly there is theory to tell you which chord the bridge 'should' start with. How does that work?

[SaxFunforYOU]

I find it easy also to think of complex time signatures, like 5/4 time as their compounded parts, in the case of 5/4, i think 1 2, 1 2 3.

[DaveHead36]

Just becareful with theory if you write music. I guess if you write classical it's ok. But a friend of mine had to take theory in college for 4 years and the "rules" for music theory became so engrained in his head that it became harder for him to write songs and harder for me to work with him. I'd say, let's go here... he'd say "no you can't because of the rules." I'd say "i don't know the rules, it just sounds good... let's do it." It took him 3 years to break the habit. But the plus side is, he can transition from the Stone into the Piano Man with ease and if you ask him to play LIOG in G (the song is in D), he can transpose it all in his head and do it on the fly. lol

As for your question about chord progressions. I think what you're getting at is like the 1 4 5 progression. imagine the C scale starts C(1), D(2), E(3), F(4), G(5), A(6), B(7). Your basic blues and country songs are usually in a 1, 4, 5 progression. So if you are in the key of C. C being the root note (1), then play the chord coresponding to the 4th note in the scale. In this case F, then the 5th note (G). So you just go from C, F, G. I know some people that don't read notes or changes, but rely on numbers. I don't do too well with numbers and so I don't like them much. I just learned through playing a lot of songs that when your playing 1, 4, 5 that you start on C, goto F, then to G. or E, A, B or A, E, D et cetera... Hope that answers your question. If you were wanting something else entirely, i apologize for wasting your time lol Good luck!

DH36