is dave losing his style?

[nlaposta1]

bear with me on this one. Think of Dave's stuff back in the day... well before busted stuff: big stretch chords, songs in odd keys like G#, crazy time signatures...

I finally got around to listening to his latest stuff, namely stay or leave and grave digger, and I can't help but wonder, is he done with his old style? I mean, even on busted stuff, the majority of the songs are just open chords or simple barre chords: the only songs on busted stuff that are dave-esque are busted stuff, grey street, captain, and raven.

Now don't get me wrong, I think gravedigger and stay or leave are kickass songs, but they are definitely lacking the musical complexity that his earlier songs had.

I dunno, something that occured to me while looking up tab for the two songs. When I can pick up my guitar and learn a dave song in 30 seconds, well, its never happened before, and last night I learned those two songs in a few minutes. AND I am not a good guitarist...

curious...

[Versacci41]

You also have to look at his muting and slapping technique which, after listening to some 2003 d&t shows, sounds (in my opinion) much better and more complex than in the past...dave may have some songs that are easier to play, but theres no way you could tell me that its easy to sit and play any of his stuff perfectly...

[nlaposta1]

Seriously, I looked up the tabs for gravedigger and stay or leave, and had the entire songs down in less than five minutes. I just think recently, his newer songs seem to be far less complex, which is kinda alarming to me.

[cyrusjones]

maybe you're just getting better, and btw stay or leave jumps time sigs also. He also began using the raised B tuning to his advantage. He's just playing smarter.

[pay4whatuget]

i wouldn't say losing...maybe changing. bc he obviously can still play the "other" way very very well. i know what you're getting at though...he hasn't written a stone or 41 in a while...

[longleggedfish]

I listened to the snippets on the Warehouse and i wasn't very impressed. I also notice that the majority of the songs they play at concerts are old. Good songs...no great songs...but old. I love the old stuff, dont' get me wrong, I think he has come up with a couple really good songs recently....but not a whole album like the days of old. They say that geniuses come up with their greatest revelations prior to marriage, prior to children and prior to 30.........

[nlaposta1]

yeah, I'm not saying he can't play his old stuff or his old style, but I do think, generally, his newer material is much LESS complex than his old stuff. Switching time sigs is nothing much when its 6/8 to 4/4 like in stay or leave, its when its 4/4 to 9/8 (fool to think) or 5/4-6/4-4/4-7/8-6/8 (rapunzel) that its tricky...

[Haiku Jimi]

Wait so you think Stay or Leave is less complex than Proudest Monkey? Dancing Nancies? Crash Into Me? PFWYG? Lover Lay Down?

Dude, I really don't see your point. Odd time signatures and tunings? What do you consider You Never Know and Busted Stuff (the song)? He's written simple stuff before as well. Granted you don't see many Satellites, Stones, and Billies nowadays, but people change. Basically, what I got out of your post is you just miss his songs when they used to be based on riffs (ala Rhyme & Reason, the Stone, etc...), cuz that's really the only thing that's noticeably changed: he doesnt do that as much as he used to. But I definitely disagree with his style getting worse.

And you mentioning Fool To Think in the post above...I mean everyone kinda criticized him for that whole album. Gee, I wonder why he wont write another song like that...

[AdamCU81]

I think You Never Know is pretty complicated musically....but I see what your saying.

[Mathers420]

I thought it was common knowledge that while his playing has gotten better his songwritting complexity(and quality maybe) has gotten worse.

[nlaposta1]

all I'm comparing is how hard the stuff is to play, if I cared about whether the hard songs are the more popular ones (fool to think) I would have posted this in the general discussion.

proudest monkey and lover lay down are harder to play and sing the stay or leave, or gravedigger, by a mile.

the main point of my thread was to outline how much simpler dave's music is becoming. you stick a newbie with playing BOWA or Let you Down, or Rapunzel, and then stick them with stay or leave or gravedigger and tell me which one they master first. What drew me to dmb in the first place was how great the music sounds but how non-traditional the chord shapes, keys, and timing was.

[DaveMatthewsRec]

I agree with the thread starter...it would literally take me 5 minutes to learn the new shit "perfectly"(and why would you waste your time learning the new stuff anyway IMO...you might as well work on your own music if you are gonna learn that), when as the old stuff has taken me years to just come very close.

I will always love Dave, and think he's the greatest, but I know that his new songs aren't even as good as some of the other poppy shit out there today.:(

[Haiku Jimi]

Proudest Monkey and LLD tougher to PLAY than You Never Know or SoL? I dont think so. Maybe tougher to sing while playing...

Dave's been writing simple songs all along...look at Too Much, Crash, Christmas Song, I'll Back You Up, even Two Step, etc... I'd say there were only a few exceptions like Warehouse, the Stone, etc...

"Dave, you suck now man! You're not stretching your hand over 8 frets to play songs anymore! Come on, what's up with that crap??

[The Maker_24]

Originally posted by nlaposta1
all I'm comparing is how hard the stuff is to play, if I cared about whether the hard songs are the more popular ones (fool to think) I would have posted this in the general discussion.

proudest monkey and lover lay down are harder to play and sing the stay or leave, or gravedigger, by a mile.

the main point of my thread was to outline how much simpler dave's music is becoming. you stick a newbie with playing BOWA or Let you Down, or Rapunzel, and then stick them with stay or leave or gravedigger and tell me which one they master first. What drew me to dmb in the first place was how great the music sounds but how non-traditional the chord shapes, keys, and timing was.


um let you down and rapunzel arent very hard


bowa can be tricky though

[The Maker_24]

Originally posted by DaveMatthewsRec
I agree with the thread starter...it would literally take me 5 minutes to learn the new shit "perfectly"(and why would you waste your time learning the new stuff anyway IMO...you might as well work on your own music if you are gonna learn that), when as the old stuff has taken me years to just come very close.

I will always love Dave, and think he's the greatest, but I know that his new songs aren't even as good as some of the other poppy shit out there today.:(

i guarantee you that you didnt learn to play you never know PERFECTLY in 5 minutes....

[nlaposta1]

YNK wasn't on my list of old style dave songs, but in hindsight it probably should be. let you down and rapunzel are both hard to sing and play- as is proudest monkey. I still have trouble with that song.

I know everyone hates fool to think, but I think its a good example. the verse is a simple E-D-A progression, but dave doesn't use open chords, he plays, well, dave-chords. if that song was written two years later (today), I think he would just be using open chords. imho.

he's definitely changing - give me a list of songs where he uses open chords - all I can think of is spoon, and I guess the song that jane likes, there might be a few others. whether the change is for good or bad is the real question...

[AC-777]

Originally posted by nlaposta1
YNK wasn't on my list of old style dave songs, but in hindsight it probably should be. let you down and rapunzel are both hard to sing and play- as is proudest monkey. I still have trouble with that song.

I know everyone hates fool to think, but I think its a good example. the verse is a simple E-D-A progression, but dave doesn't use open chords, he plays, well, dave-chords. if that song was written two years later (today), I think he would just be using open chords. imho.

he's definitely changing - give me a list of songs where he uses open chords - all I can think of is spoon, and I guess the song that jane likes, there might be a few others. whether the change is for good or bad is the real question...

I find rapunzel easy to play and sing. I really think it is all in the player. Complexity does not always equal a good song or a better song.

I love fool to think.

So Damn Lucky is a good example of dave using his 'dave chords' in his writing today.

Couple of older songs where open chord are used-
Ants Marching (a staple in classic DMB)
Spotlight
Seek Up (another classic DMB)
I'll Back You Up
Jimi Thing (a little bit of open chords)
Dreaming Tree (often noted as a Dave written masterpiece)
Lie In Our Graves
Pig
Dancing Nancies

Couple of older songs where basic power chords are used-
Halloween
Pay For What You Get
Heathcliff's Haiku Warriors
Pig

I don't think there is anything wrong with open or barre/power chords.

[Haiku Jimi]

Originally posted by AC-777
I find rapunzel easy to play and sing. I really think it is all in the player. Complexity does not always equal a good song or a better song.

I love fool to think.

So Damn Lucky is a good example of dave using his 'dave chords' in his writing today.

Couple of older songs where open chord are used-
Ants Marching (a staple in classic DMB)
Spotlight
Seek Up (another classic DMB)
I'll Back You Up
Jimi Thing (a little bit of open chords)
Dreaming Tree (often noted as a Dave written masterpiece)
Lie In Our Graves
Pig
Dancing Nancies

Couple of older songs where basic power chords are used-
Halloween
Pay For What You Get
Heathcliff's Haiku Warriors
Pig

I don't think there is anything wrong with open or barre/power chords.

what he said...

And besides, nlaposta1, your whole thing about "I should've included YNK with the old style songs" ...well no, you shouldnt have. First of all, its new, and thats the opposite ofwhat you're trying to prove...that none of his new stuff is "old-style". Anyway, where do you see Dave using open chords now on new songs? Gravedigger and SoL, and...maybe a few songs on SD? Most of BS was written pre-Everyday...so... where??

[AC-777]

Originally posted by Haiku Jimi
what he said...

And besides, nlaposta1, your whole thing about "I should've included YNK with the old style songs" ...well no, you shouldnt have. First of all, its new, and thats the opposite ofwhat you're trying to prove...that none of his new stuff is "old-style". Anyway, where do you see Dave using open chords now on new songs? Gravedigger and SoL, and...maybe a few songs on SD? Most of BS was written pre-Everyday...so... where??

Well said. I was thinking the same thing on the Lillywhite Stuff.

[nlaposta1]

most of his new stuff is simpler than his older stuff musically. this isn't complicated... stick all of dm's albums in front of a newbie and say: learn each one from start to finish, singing and playing, and I GUARANTEE they come back and say busted stuff was the easiest. by a mile. its not just about open chords. its about times and song rhythm too.

now, I'm not saying ALL of his new stuff/most recent stuff is easy, just a higher ratio is. see the previous paragraph.

[DaveMatthewsRec]

Originally posted by The Maker_24
i guarantee you that you didnt learn to play you never know PERFECTLY in 5 minutes....

i would consider that song "the old style" and same with fool to think...both fuckin great songs and totally worthy of being in DMBs repertoire

[dmbecky]

Originally posted by cyrusjones
maybe you're just getting better, and btw stay or leave jumps time sigs also. He also began using the raised B tuning to his advantage. He's just playing smarter.

smarter :) that and now he has the money to have many guitars...12string, raised tuning, elec, etc. . . i'd wager that if any of us had that kind of money we'd be trying out diferent things more. but yes, i agree with that he is playing smarter.

[davehead1]

Originally posted by nlaposta1
bear with me on this one. Think of Dave's stuff back in the day... well before busted stuff: big stretch chords, songs in odd keys like G#, crazy time signatures...


curious...

G# Major?!?!?!

[choffa316]

it's not the difficulty of the song, it's how it hits your ear in the end, tom petty has made an awesome career out of this, he said if a song has more than 4 chords it's showing off, dave matthews songs are more complex than his but not too ridiculously complex, also his songwriting is peaking right now and his use of guitar techniques has evolved, his style has changed but not necessarily in a negative way. i've heard most of the new cd and i'm impressed, so easy or hard to play, it doesn't matter as long as it hits you right.

[DaveMatthewsRec]

Originally posted by choffa316
it's not the difficulty of the song, it's how it hits your ear in the end, tom petty has made an awesome career out of this, he said if a song has more than 4 chords it's showing off, dave matthews songs are more complex than his but not too ridiculously complex, also his songwriting is peaking right now and his use of guitar techniques has evolved, his style has changed but not necessarily in a negative way. i've heard most of the new cd and i'm impressed, so easy or hard to play, it doesn't matter as long as it hits you right.

I agree with this, but the new ones really don't "hit me right". So in a sense, he lost his style, to me.

[nlaposta1]

yeah, I probably shouldn't have said he's 'losing his style', but his guitar style that he was known for is definitely changing, or has definitely changed.