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Old 06-10-2009, 06:47 AM   #31
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Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
You should have a listen to Ludwig's mastering job on Chinese Democracy. Not only are the songs actually very good (unless Axl's voice is insurmountable to you) but the dynamics are 100% intact and there's no clipping.
I tried, I really did. But Chinese Democracy was the Everyday of the GNR catalogue. Axl doesn't have the vocal quality he once did. The songs may have been good, but I couldn't get through it. It just wasn't GNR.
Quote:
Ludwig has a great article on it right on his site. Not only did he do it right, but the band actually picked the version with no dynamic compression of the three masters he sent to them…so they had good ears too. http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gate...udnessWars.asp
Bob Ludwig and Bob Katz are THE men when it comes to mastering.
Quote:
I believe that a small amount of clipping is preferable to compression and this is what happened with UTTAD...but with nearly all tracks on Crash there is too much clipping.
That's sort of been the battle with digital mixing. A lot of people are mixing with their eyes instead of their ears. Visible clipping doesn't equate audible clipping, and audible is the only part that matters. Some programs have clip indicators that go off from -3dB to clipping. You just have to know you're program. Audacity is closer to the -3dB light up, which isn't accurate. Crash does have some clipping that is audible, but it's not detrimental. In Drive and Too Much it actually compliments. The way it clips, though, I can tell it was in the mastering.
Quote:
I disagree that part of the mastering engineer's job has to be volume
It absolutely is. The mastering engineer has to get all of the tracks for an album to be of equal volume and sonic quality.
Briefly, a mastering engineer has four main areas they should focus on: volume (through compression), track order and pacing of the album, time spreads between songs, creating a continuity of sonic quality between the songs (through EQ, mostly). Often the artist and producer will have an idea of how they want the album to flow, but occasionally they need help getting it right. Sometimes they're too close to the songs or have a vision that doesn't quite work. Katz tells a story where an artist he mastered wanted his album to be in halves - the first about love and the second about hate. Theoretically okay, little hackneyed, but you should attempt the client's requests first. He played the halved album for the artist and the artist could not be disuaded that it didn't work. It was a disaster. Most listeners didn't get the theming, the album felt really unbalanced, as most of the love songs were ballad-like in nature and the hate was pretty rockin' non-stop without a breather. Even his fanbase was turned off by it. Mastering is an art form that most people can't appreciate, like producing, because they don't know what it does and therefore have no respect for it. I applaud you few who even know who Ludwig, Jensen, and Katz are.
Quote:
The volume is the consumer's job and in most cases that volume control is huge!
Just like driving safely is expected of drivers on the road and we all know how well that goes. I'm not talking volume in loudness, I'm talking volume in terms of within the project, and then there has to be [like it or not] volume-adjustment on the end-result. It's the way it is now. I miss dynamics, but unfortunately they went bye bye over forty years ago everywhere except classical, jazz, and old bluesmen that know better. That's it. Everybody has Spinal Tap syndrome anymore. 11.
Quote:
I'm being facetious of course, but you know what I mean. I am sure I will love the production on Crash when I finally get to hear it without Jensen's touch...because Crash is TOO loud and the dynamics do suffer so the production and the mastering are completely related to each other.
They are related in the way of (since someone brought it up) a Football team. The way the offense and the defense are related. They can help or hinder the other to a degree, but they are only really related by the jerseys. Mastering is not production. If you write a report, that's production. If you have it embossed and notarized, that's mastering. There's a difference, and the ear can be trained to hear it - it just takes a looong time and access to a lot of before and after product to be able to pick it out.
Quote:
The mastering can affect the production.
No, it affects the product.
Quote:
Granted Crash isn’t as bad as anything from Oasis, but it's not a pretty CD and the more vinyl you listen to the more you realize what you're missing when you pop in a CD like Crash. RTT might not be well produced, but it’s ever so much more pleasant to listen to on the ears.
But it sounds very amateur, which is one reason why it's endearing, but also why they make sure to let everyone know that it's an independent release. R2T gets a little boring after awhile. Granted not for us, the core fanbase - but to the average listener. It is easier on the ears, but it doesn't grab you and keep you there unless you were already there [like you saw/heard a Trax show and it brings you back to that place, etc]. There are always exceptions to the rule, and everyone on here can be considered an exception, but to the average joe it's just another jam band record that starts with 5 minutes of just a snare. R2T is unique in that it was mostly live, so comparing it to the studio process on all but two songs is a bit eroneous. R2T should more be compared to Red Rocks or Chicago or Listener Supported, that would be more accurate.
Quote:
I don't think the blame lies solely with the person responsible for the mastering either. I have chatted with several owners of mastering studios in Toronto and they all have the same story - if they won't make it loud like "x" (insert another band's CD here) then they'll not get the job.
No, but a lot of times it does. Sometimes the mix sucks. But the mastering engineer can bring the volume down to where it doesn't clip [unless it is already clipping in the mix], yet maintain that volume.
Don't forget, the band is often the visible face blamed for anything - like the QB of a team [unless it's Brett Favre and then it is his fault <- Favre]. If the band's management, agent, legal, [or most often] label says it needs to be louder - it might as well come from the band. LWS is a good example if this labeling. Lillywhite was just the messenger between the label and the band, but because he was delivering the label's notes in their name, he was one of them. Ergo, he was the label to them. Even though he wasn't.
Quote:
For every song you can open up and show clipping, there’s another without it. The Stone Roses CD is absolutely spot on the money, production and mastering. No clipping, 15dB+ of dynamic range.
Of course I totally understand that the average consumer doesn't care about any of this...and that includes the majority of artists too. SO, the producers and mastering engineers that do get it should be just keeping the life of the music intact so that those of us who do care are satisfied...as those that don't are satisfied regardless!
But in the end, you have to do what the client wants. You can always decline the job, or even use a pseudonym. You woldn't believe the amount of people that actually do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
Here's an example of what Katz was talking about, this is my brother-in-law's track. The unmastered version is on top, the mastered on the bottom. I've removed the name just so that no-one gets any crap for it (like me),

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5967/waveform.jpg

Now granted the mastered version isn't a disaster or anything and most people won't notice much of a difference, but the first one sounds more open and more like a performance to me on my system...and I'm sure I'll notice it even more once my main listening room gets treated acoustically.
That's what you can see, but you've got to go by what you hear. Remember audacity isn't professional grade, and indicates clipping earlier than it should. It can sound like a performance, but if they are going for a studio sound and they get a live sound - they failed their objective. Here's a good example, one band I produced here in Orlando came in to do a live one hour set for a canned radio broadcast. The interview was a bit boring, but when I went to mix the songs I found that everything was isolated from the drums enough to sound very studio. They got an 11 track studio album out of one afternoon of their time, in production value it sound very close and intimate like Rickie Lee Jones Pop Pop album [check it out, you'll love the production and mastering as well as the music]. Their album sounds intimate and laid back, but not live. There is a difference, it's subtle. Oh so subtle. But there is a difference and it drives me up a wall when I hear a studio album that sounds live when it doesn't suit the artist or the album to do so.

As a side note, this is the most I have enjoyed any discussion I have ever had on this board.
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  • Old 06-10-2009, 08:53 AM   #32
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    This may be the most informative thread in the history of threads.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 09:06 AM   #33
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kydmb99 View Post
    This is what I would've done personally... I'll go song by song and assume I started with the same tracks he was working with...

    Grux - I might have made this a little longer.... Add a good Dave riff and gotten Boyd more involved (although that's almost every song)... But I understand it's more of a LeRoi thing and I like this track so that's more nitpicking than anything...

    Shake Me - I would have changed the bridge in this song drastically... It's so generic. I would've either scrapped it and replaced it with an instrumental jam or made it longer with more instruments and less lyrics.. This is the only part of the song I don't like... I also would have put a nice little jam at the end. It's almost like a SUAD/Rapunzel type song to me in that it just is asking for some kind of jam at the end.

    Funny - This song would've never made it anywhere near the album if I was producing it.

    LITHOG - Definitely would've had a longer intro. Definitely some Boyd/Roi interplay at the beginning with some nice Tim fills. Maybe kind of like a Seek Up live intro only with some Boyd. Also, again I would've had more instrumentation at the end of the song. It's a really beautiful song that I think deserves a really beautiful ending... It starts to at the end but ends abruptly. Kind of dissapoints me.

    Why I Am - I think production wise this song is about as good as it can get I suppose. It's kind of a meh song to begin and I think this song reaches it's potential.

    Dive In - This song is actually produced pretty well I guess unless you want to pretty much re-do it. I don't think a jam or anything would really fit this song.

    Spaceman - DEFINITELY needs horns and violins. This song is just asking for Boyd and Roi/Jeff.

    Squirm - Kind of like LITHOG I think this song needs an intro to really build the mood because the lyrics and mood they create are exceptional. Overall, I like it though.

    Alligator Pie - BOYD BOYD BOYD. This song should've definitely been jammed out more towards the end IMO... Probably would've changed the bridge somewhat too to add more Danny Barnes and of course, Boyd to it. Boyd should've been way more prominent on this song.

    Seven - Fine as is IMO although I might've turned the horns up more and made them more audible in this song.

    Time Bomb - Definitely needs a longer intro.. I also would've jammed the fuck out of the end of this song to get that emotional jolt the lyrics build through the song.

    Baby Blue - Perfect as is.

    You And Me - Probably wouldn't have made the final cut but definitely needs more instrumentation. Also, that chorus would've gone down the shitter in a heartbeat...
    I don't get why people assume that Rob Cavallo is the one that made all these decisions. I'm sure he had input, but ultimately, it's the band's call. You may have suggested those things and they would have simply said, "No."

    It's not like you could just say to Dave, "You and Me, it needs a new chorus. Scrap the old one." And then expect Dave to run and write you a new chorus. He wrote the effing song the way he wrote it. You could tweak and suggest things, but stuff like, "Totally new bridge here," is completely unreasonable.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 09:43 AM   #34
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    On Baby Blue, I wish Dave there was an interlude between the end of the chorus and the second verse. The singing needs a quick break for the music to really sink in, and he just keeps singing.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 10:11 AM   #35
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HolyCow View Post
    I don't get why people assume that Rob Cavallo is the one that made all these decisions. I'm sure he had input, but ultimately, it's the band's call. You may have suggested those things and they would have simply said, "No."

    It's not like you could just say to Dave, "You and Me, it needs a new chorus. Scrap the old one." And then expect Dave to run and write you a new chorus. He wrote the effing song the way he wrote it. You could tweak and suggest things, but stuff like, "Totally new bridge here," is completely unreasonable.
    not really, that's a part of a producer's job. To make the songs as good as they can possibly be, especially if the song is being written in the studio. If something doesn't work it's the producers place to let it be known. Songs go through a lot more evolution, and in a different way in the studio than most would imagine.

    Different producers do it differently, I usually try to be as general as I can that way the idea is there, but the creation is all the artist. Some step in and play something and depending on the mood/productivity/etc that ends up flying. They then usually get some sort of writer credit on it then, too. To me, that's exerting too much influence over a project. Giving a broad general idea, or suggesting changing a chord here or there for emphasis is one thing, but when you take it to the point of writing it for them - that's a stepping over the boundary a bit.

    Don't forget, it's the producer's work, too. If the product ends up not being what they want their name on, it's embarassing for both parties.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 01:13 PM   #36
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dodo36 View Post
    not really, that's a part of a producer's job. To make the songs as good as they can possibly be, especially if the song is being written in the studio. If something doesn't work it's the producers place to let it be known. Songs go through a lot more evolution, and in a different way in the studio than most would imagine.

    Different producers do it differently, I usually try to be as general as I can that way the idea is there, but the creation is all the artist. Some step in and play something and depending on the mood/productivity/etc that ends up flying. They then usually get some sort of writer credit on it then, too. To me, that's exerting too much influence over a project. Giving a broad general idea, or suggesting changing a chord here or there for emphasis is one thing, but when you take it to the point of writing it for them - that's a stepping over the boundary a bit.

    Don't forget, it's the producer's work, too. If the product ends up not being what they want their name on, it's embarassing for both parties.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 04:20 PM   #37
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    I mean, if I had an equal production skills I could probably get the album I wanted out of them. I don't know if it would be the album that anyone would want. However, coming out of the 2008 tour I wanted to see a DMB album that effectively used Tim as a prominent player in the band and wanted to see them really build upon that swaggering horn work/horn section sound that Roi and Ross had been working on up until Roi's death, the kind we hear in songs like Kill The King, Shake Me and especially Seven. The latter song, with it's heavier Motown/Stax influence, is definetely the direction I would have gone in with this record, in terms of how I would have wanted the horns to sound. It's a much different use for horns and the saxophone then DMB has used in the past, and it is a great and natural progression to try out. I probably would have pushed the band to go even further in that direction than they ended up doing, making that the centerpiece of the songs. As it is now, horns, or at least the horn sound I'm talking about, really drive only two songs on the record, Shake Me and Seven. So I would have added that, but that probably would have made the record less diverse.

    It's just hard to talk in hypotheticals, because if any of us had been producing these songs would never have existed, likely. A thousand different variables brought these songs to life.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 04:49 PM   #38
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by inmytree View Post
    It's just hard to talk in hypotheticals,
    you seem to have mastered it.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 04:54 PM   #39
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    I would have secretly hired Steve Lillywhite as my production assistant and we would have added a lot more in between song transitions and violin would have been louder in Why I Am. Monkey would have one more cadence added to the ending build up. Funny is cut and Beach Ball in. You and Me exactly the way it is. A stronger but suttle violin track on LITHOG, kinda like how the drums are strong, but not too noticable. Would have forced Dave to right more lyrics for Alligator Pie. The build in Time Bomb would grow a bit longer. Thats all for now.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 04:59 PM   #40
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Born To Run View Post
    probably the most retarded thread ive ever seen


    if i had the football skills of kurt warner could i throw a football better?


    this is stupid.
    The question is phrased oddly, but it's heads n shoulders better than your "Full time rapper on tour" thread.

    Having heard the album, I only know what I would want to change. I don't think I could have done anything from scratch. I mostly would do what the "producer" above said...

    1. Extend Boyd's solos on Alligator Pie and Funny.
    2. Change Time Bomb's structure to make it more interesting.
    3. Get that deep baritone sax sound (so much to say) into Why I Am
    4. Change the Y&M chorus
    5. Write A Song makes the album, but maybe not in its current form.
    6. Spaceman needs more...cowbell

    sorry to be vague, but that's why I'm not a producer.
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    Old 06-10-2009, 05:01 PM   #41
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    I would have secretly hired Steve Lillywhite as my production assistant and we would have added a lot more in between song transitions and violin would have been louder in Why I Am. Monkey would have one more cadence added to the ending build up. Funny is cut and Beach Ball in. You and Me exactly the way it is. A stronger but suttle violin track on LITHOG, kinda like how the drums are strong, but not too noticable. Would have forced Dave to right more lyrics for Alligator Pie. The build in Time Bomb would grow a bit longer. Instead of 3 new songs on the extra disc I would have made 4 to 5 of the old songs on it since its an extras anyways. Idea, Corn B., Break Free, Sugar, 27, and Crazy Easy!
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    Old 06-10-2009, 05:12 PM   #42
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    Re: Hypothetical Album Production Question...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Millstone View Post
    you seem to have mastered it.
    Not really, since my ideas on how I would have produced the album would probably have led to there being different songs written than these. What does anything I said have to do with these specific songs?
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