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Old 01-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #1111
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Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

I feel like the song is probably just one of those sort of formless drone songs Dave has written a ton of. Like a Toy Soldiers, It's All Gravy, Looking at You, Once in a Wild Afternoon, Don't Burn the Pig, etc type thing. There's a song somewhere in all of those but that one wasn't easy to pull out.
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  • Old 01-23-2013, 07:07 AM   #1112
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SeekUpTheCubs View Post
    If they reworked it a little and put it in a new record that Steve produces it could be really good. I think away from the world is amazing and even if you don't songs like snow outside and drunken soldier are definitely very good.
    I thought about this while driving this morning... my first reaction a few days ago was Hell no, and while I stand by the fact that I don't want Steve wasting his time rehashing old territory trying to make bad stuff sound better.. it's interesting to think what could have been.. although I'm sure many of these songs wouldn't exist because they came about from a writing process that likely wouldn't have happened with Steve at the helm.

    But.. Steve did mention a song or two that he liked from the concert he went to last summer.. the one I remember was You Might Die Trying. I guess it just made me think that he heard something live that he figured he could have done something good with. So maybe it wouldn't have been so bad. Ultimately, there are some riffs and licks that might have made it through, but those songs would probably be very different if he had been the producer back then, and simply dressing these up with good production really wouldn't be enough for most of these songs. To me, Old Dirt Hill, YMDT, Hello Again and Bayou are the only songs that could be truly improved by a different approach on production... but who knows.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 07:50 AM   #1113
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post
    EXACTLY... the choice of producer is important.. mostly in that they don't need a producer to help them write (Ballard, Batson) and pull away from what makes them DMB. They need a producer that can help motivate, and get their best performance.. but I don't believe that Lillywhite is the answer for DMB. The songwriting has to be great, first and foremost, and Lillywhite has little to do with that. No doubt he cold make whatever they do sound good, maybe have some good input on arrangements and stuff like that.. but the fundamental songwriting has to be up to par. There are plenty of producers out there that can producer DMB just fine... now if the band will only work with them and not the likes of Ballard and Batson.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 08:08 AM   #1114
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post
    EXACTLY... the choice of producer is important.. mostly in that they don't need a producer to help them write (Ballard, Batson) and pull away from what makes them DMB. They need a producer that can help motivate, and get their best performance.. but I don't believe that Lillywhite is the answer for DMB. The songwriting has to be great, first and foremost, and Lillywhite has little to do with that. No doubt he cold make whatever they do sound good, maybe have some good input on arrangements and stuff like that.. but the fundamental songwriting has to be up to par. There are plenty of producers out there that can producer DMB just fine... now if the band will only work with them and not the likes of Ballard and Batson.

    I beg to differ there. Listen to ALL DMB Albums who SL produced VS all others. There's a HUGE difference in quality, production and arrangement! I think Cavallo was the closest they've come to the "other producer being able to produce DMB"....and it still wasn't up to par sound-wise. Steve just GETS IT; he understands they're a layered studio band. Tim doesn't have to knock your tits off with hard electric, Dave's vocal delivery carries the album, Boyd HAS TO SHOW UP, and Roi's subtle sax must live on in respect to Jeff playing it. I don't believe "plenty of other producers" can appreciate and execute that the way Steve does. AFTW is a flash of what DMB can do. However, it's not their best work....but I'll be damned if someone says it's not just about perfectly arranged and produced...
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    Old 01-23-2013, 10:33 AM   #1115
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    that person needs to seriously get a life.
    That person is the reason you are able to voice your opinion on this great site! Just sayin...
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    Old 01-23-2013, 10:42 AM   #1116
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MColin28 View Post
    I beg to differ there. Listen to ALL DMB Albums who SL produced VS all others. There's a HUGE difference in quality, production and arrangement! I think Cavallo was the closest they've come to the "other producer being able to produce DMB"....and it still wasn't up to par sound-wise. Steve just GETS IT; he understands they're a layered studio band. Tim doesn't have to knock your tits off with hard electric, Dave's vocal delivery carries the album, Boyd HAS TO SHOW UP, and Roi's subtle sax must live on in respect to Jeff playing it. I don't believe "plenty of other producers" can appreciate and execute that the way Steve does. AFTW is a flash of what DMB can do. However, it's not their best work....but I'll be damned if someone says it's not just about perfectly arranged and produced...
    I agree with a lot of this. Lillywhite and DMB simply complement each other well in the studio. Lillywhite knows how to take their creations and make them sound rich and textured and all around delightful. But Robb is right about the songwriting. Lillywhite never wrote the songs. If Dave and co. need another person, another voice to motivate the songwriting, then they should work with that person as well.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 11:33 AM   #1117
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dramageek View Post
    I agree with a lot of this. Lillywhite and DMB simply complement each other well in the studio. Lillywhite knows how to take their creations and make them sound rich and textured and all around delightful. But Robb is right about the songwriting. Lillywhite never wrote the songs. If Dave and co. need another person, another voice to motivate the songwriting, then they should work with that person as well.
    I see what y'all mean. Yes, someone needs to push Dave lyrically.....but Steve MUST produce or at least master their studio album(s). Nobody has the DMB ear like Steve. Maybe Dave should go with Stefan on a camping trip ala BTCS sessions to knock out some songs or better lyrics....then meet with Steve. Whatever the process, Steve needs to be in that studio.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 11:37 AM   #1118
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SeekUpTheCubs View Post
    It was before time bomb on June 15 2010

    And before Needle & The Damage Done on July 04 2010
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    Old 01-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #1119
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MColin28 View Post
    I beg to differ there. Listen to ALL DMB Albums who SL produced VS all others. There's a HUGE difference in quality, production and arrangement! I think Cavallo was the closest they've come to the "other producer being able to produce DMB"....and it still wasn't up to par sound-wise. Steve just GETS IT; he understands they're a layered studio band. Tim doesn't have to knock your tits off with hard electric, Dave's vocal delivery carries the album, Boyd HAS TO SHOW UP, and Roi's subtle sax must live on in respect to Jeff playing it. I don't believe "plenty of other producers" can appreciate and execute that the way Steve does. AFTW is a flash of what DMB can do. However, it's not their best work....but I'll be damned if someone says it's not just about perfectly arranged and produced...
    Attaboy.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #1120
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MColin28 View Post
    I beg to differ there. Listen to ALL DMB Albums who SL produced VS all others. There's a HUGE difference in quality, production and arrangement! I think Cavallo was the closest they've come to the "other producer being able to produce DMB"....and it still wasn't up to par sound-wise. Steve just GETS IT; he understands they're a layered studio band. Tim doesn't have to knock your tits off with hard electric, Dave's vocal delivery carries the album, Boyd HAS TO SHOW UP, and Roi's subtle sax must live on in respect to Jeff playing it. I don't believe "plenty of other producers" can appreciate and execute that the way Steve does. AFTW is a flash of what DMB can do. However, it's not their best work....but I'll be damned if someone says it's not just about perfectly arranged and produced...
    I'm not sure pointing to other past producers of DMB really makes a good case.. the band really didn't think through those choices very well. But to think some other producer couldn't make a great record with them is ludicrous, particularly when you think about the credentials of the 'others' -

    Ballard - Pop producer. Didn't care to try to figure the band out. Made the band do it his way, including songwriting. Bad choice.

    Harris - essentially an engineer who was elevated to the role of producer. Not a bad choice but essentially just had to track existing songs. He learned a few things from Steve and his production is technically great, but also simply serviceable. Fair choice.

    Batson - Techno and hip/hop. Trainwreck despite some classical training. To be fair, he was brought in to deal with a band at the height of their dysfunction, it seems. Had to help write stuff as well. Bad choice.

    Cavallo - Rock guy. Didn't know how to use Boyd, buried him. Album was pretty solid otherwise. But still... not the right choice. Looked solid at first, but looking back, seems like it should have been obvious.

    Busted Stuff didn't stand a chance in the court of public opinion, in many ways it's well produced, but the album itself feels uninspired and utilitarian in a sense. But as for Harris, look no further than Some Devil.. which is fantastically done. Would I have preferred to hear a Lillywhite produced Some Devil album? Most likely, yes, just because I love his production style on anyone he produces...and I'd bet it would be even better. That doesn't change the fact that Harris did a damn fine job on that album... and has grown into a pretty damn good producer in his own right. It'd be interesting to see what he could do with DMB at this point.

    Look, you can't deny what Steve brings to the DMB table, and I'm not trying to argue against that.. I'd be perfectly happy if Steve is the guy from here on out. But of all the guys out there in the world making records, its silly to think someone else can't do DMB properly, particularly when the band isn't looking for songwriting help. They've made some very bad producer choices and there may be others similar to Steve out there that could do it. I'm open to it.. but you won't hear me bitch so long as Steve as behind the boards.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 02:13 PM   #1121
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    As a musician, who has also spent time recording...I have many specific opinions on each album (as we all do) and each respective producer/engineer.

    Ill put it in simple terms. When Lillywhite produces an album, it sounds like DMB.

    You can hear each instrument, it is NOT muddy, competitive or crowded.

    There is balance, clarity and a knack for it almost sounding urgent and really necessary.

    The use of layering creates a very circular and thought/dream provoking listen. Its almost playful.

    I dont know what else to say and what Ive listed above may not even make sense. Its just...he's the guy to produce DMB. Plain and simple.
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    Old 01-23-2013, 02:41 PM   #1122
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post
    I'm not sure pointing to other past producers of DMB really makes a good case.. the band really didn't think through those choices very well. But to think some other producer couldn't make a great record with them is ludicrous, particularly when you think about the credentials of the 'others' -

    Ballard - Pop producer. Didn't care to try to figure the band out. Made the band do it his way, including songwriting. Bad choice.

    Harris - essentially an engineer who was elevated to the role of producer. Not a bad choice but essentially just had to track existing songs. He learned a few things from Steve and his production is technically great, but also simply serviceable. Fair choice.

    Batson - Techno and hip/hop. Trainwreck despite some classical training. To be fair, he was brought in to deal with a band at the height of their dysfunction, it seems. Had to help write stuff as well. Bad choice.

    Cavallo - Rock guy. Didn't know how to use Boyd, buried him. Album was pretty solid otherwise. But still... not the right choice. Looked solid at first, but looking back, seems like it should have been obvious.

    Busted Stuff didn't stand a chance in the court of public opinion, in many ways it's well produced, but the album itself feels uninspired and utilitarian in a sense. But as for Harris, look no further than Some Devil.. which is fantastically done. Would I have preferred to hear a Lillywhite produced Some Devil album? Most likely, yes, just because I love his production style on anyone he produces...and I'd bet it would be even better. That doesn't change the fact that Harris did a damn fine job on that album... and has grown into a pretty damn good producer in his own right. It'd be interesting to see what he could do with DMB at this point.

    Look, you can't deny what Steve brings to the DMB table, and I'm not trying to argue against that.. I'd be perfectly happy if Steve is the guy from here on out. But of all the guys out there in the world making records, its silly to think someone else can't do DMB properly, particularly when the band isn't looking for songwriting help. They've made some very bad producer choices and there may be others similar to Steve out there that could do it. I'm open to it.. but you won't hear me bitch so long as Steve as behind the boards.
    Not sure how pointing out other producers' comparative shortcomings doesn't make a good case. Forget about doing better than LW, even approaching LW failed with 4 people.

    Though, no, that doesn't mean no other producer could do well with them. I think a number of guys have potential to pull something great out of them sonically, but in much different ways than LW.

    Eno could probably doing something very cool with drawing out instrumental ideas.

    T-Bone could make a great bluesier record with them and probably hone in some of Dave's songwriting a bit more.

    I could go into more, but meh
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    Old 01-24-2013, 06:49 AM   #1123
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zajDmB1 View Post
    Not sure how pointing out other producers' comparative shortcomings doesn't make a good case. Forget about doing better than LW, even approaching LW failed with 4 people.

    Though, no, that doesn't mean no other producer could do well with them. I think a number of guys have potential to pull something great out of them sonically, but in much different ways than LW.

    Eno could probably doing something very cool with drawing out instrumental ideas.

    T-Bone could make a great bluesier record with them and probably hone in some of Dave's songwriting a bit more.

    I could go into more, but meh
    Again, the argument was there is really no other producer that 'gets' DMB, and that's evidenced by their past collaborations. I'm saying that, past producers as a sample, it's not really a fair comparison.. it's not as if these guys do what Steve does. They're all niche producers, or just inexperienced in Harris' case. So to say these guys are a good sampling of available producers out there that can produce DMB well... I just don't think that holds up on any level. It's as if they set out to make some concept albums (pop, hiphopish, rock), and failed (that's up for debate for some, I'm sure). I just think you need something more to make that case than comparing Lillywhite to these guys.

    I'm sure there are producers out there that can make a great DMB album, but the band has only found Steve so far. Suits me if they just stick with him.
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    Old 01-25-2013, 03:23 AM   #1124
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post

    I'm sure there are producers out there that can make a great DMB album, but the band has only found Steve so far. Suits me if they just stick with him.
    Steve Wilson for example.
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    Old 01-25-2013, 12:02 PM   #1125
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by blusi View Post
    Steve Wilson for example.
    Now that'd be real interesting. Porcupine tree ftw
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    Old 01-27-2013, 12:05 AM   #1126
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by blusi View Post
    Steve Wilson for example.
    There's also Daniel Lanois. Not only does DMB obviously like his work (the Maker, For the Beauty of Wynona, Still Water), he knows Dave personally, and he has worked with Steve Lillywhite on multiple occasions.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 07:43 AM   #1127
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rantingthespian View Post
    There's also Daniel Lanois. Not only does DMB obviously like his work (the Maker, For the Beauty of Wynona, Still Water), he knows Dave personally, and he has worked with Steve Lillywhite on multiple occasions.
    I'd also like to see them work with Nigel Godrich. He's worked on all of Radiohead's albums, plus he also produced one of McCartney's best albums in his later career (Chaos and Creation in the Backyard). I think he'd do a great job with a DMB album.

    But, ya know, only if Lillywhite isn't available. Lillywhite should always be the first choice.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 07:53 AM   #1128
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    It's funny not to mislead anyone, but yesterday pulled out an old bootleg bought in 99 Syracuse, NY 1-29-99. I was listening and when I looked at the tracking I started to laugh. On track 3 it's listed Machead, it starts off like a wierd Tim solo then leads into what seems to be Leave Me Praying. Just wondered if anyone is familiar with this show, probably just labeled wrong. Someone will know? Back in the day the bootleggers always were getting the title wrong, I have seen Typical Saturation. Ha Ha
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    Old 01-28-2013, 08:17 AM   #1129
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    BW would have been a far, far different record if Roi didn't pass. That video right before the 08 tour..the 5 second clip in the beginning is all sax and is very different than the record we got. I actually think guitar replaced a lot of what would have been sax. Dave and Carter said Roi and Cavallo hit it off right away in an interview before the spring tour in 09.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 12:19 PM   #1130
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaymas9 View Post
    BW would have been a far, far different record if Roi didn't pass. That video right before the 08 tour..the 5 second clip in the beginning is all sax and is very different than the record we got. I actually think guitar replaced a lot of what would have been sax. Dave and Carter said Roi and Cavallo hit it off right away in an interview before the spring tour in 09.
    I assume you mean this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQWXMWC4e08

    I'm pretty sure that was a transition from what became Time Bomb. So it's really hard to say what we would have gotten at the end, and what would have been mixed down (see Boyd on BW) if Roi had been there to recognize it and speak up. This raw mix, he's pretty much at the forefront but I'd expect it would have been different in the final mix, even if that sax riff made it through.

    But I'm not going to say that it would have been a drastically different record. In the end, I think they were going to let Cavallo be Cavallo, so we got a bit of a heavier (relative to DMB) and kind of bombastic rock record... as opposed to Lillywhite's steady hand that allowed the band members to breath and not be buried under layers of other stuff.

    Just my two cents though. I suppose I'm agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. I just think it hinged on Cavallo, and that wouldn't have changed too much if Roi had been there.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 12:49 PM   #1131
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    I would love to see what Rick Rubin could contribute. I love his work with Gogol Bordello and Johnny Cash.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 01:38 PM   #1132
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chadizzy1 View Post
    I would love to see what Rick Rubin could contribute. I love his work with Gogol Bordello and Johnny Cash.
    I don't know. I hear he's more of a CEO type producer, and lets the artist and engineers do it. He recorded the Avetts in Asheville via Skype. They even said that he just let them do what they wanted (which was fine in their case). I think DMB needs a more hands on producer like Lillywhite.
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    Old 01-28-2013, 02:00 PM   #1133
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post
    I assume you mean this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQWXMWC4e08

    I'm pretty sure that was a transition from what became Time Bomb. So it's really hard to say what we would have gotten at the end, and what would have been mixed down (see Boyd on BW) if Roi had been there to recognize it and speak up. This raw mix, he's pretty much at the forefront but I'd expect it would have been different in the final mix, even if that sax riff made it through.

    But I'm not going to say that it would have been a drastically different record. In the end, I think they were going to let Cavallo be Cavallo, so we got a bit of a heavier (relative to DMB) and kind of bombastic rock record... as opposed to Lillywhite's steady hand that allowed the band members to breath and not be buried under layers of other stuff.

    Just my two cents though. I suppose I'm agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. I just think it hinged on Cavallo, and that wouldn't have changed too much if Roi had been there.
    I agree with a lot of this, and the record was always going to be more bombastic, but you can tell the approach to the sax there is just different. I think the band did what it could to flesh out the record while respecting Roi, and it led to a lot of heavy lead guitar (which may have been a prominent part anyway) but there undoubtedly was going to be more sax on that record. And I bet the arrangements would have been different for the most part.
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    Old 01-30-2013, 12:28 AM   #1134
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chadizzy1 View Post
    I would love to see what Rick Rubin could contribute. I love his work with Gogol Bordello and Johnny Cash.
    Rick Rubin hasn't been a good producer since 1994, maybe.
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    Old 01-30-2013, 06:00 AM   #1135
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nycrispy View Post
    It's funny not to mislead anyone, but yesterday pulled out an old bootleg bought in 99 Syracuse, NY 1-29-99. I was listening and when I looked at the tracking I started to laugh. On track 3 it's listed Machead, it starts off like a wierd Tim solo then leads into what seems to be Leave Me Praying. Just wondered if anyone is familiar with this show, probably just labeled wrong. Someone will know? Back in the day the bootleggers always were getting the title wrong, I have seen Typical Saturation. Ha Ha
    It's not the third track, but Dave and Tim debuted an early version of Bartender at that show, which may be what you're referring to: http://dmbalmanac.com/TourShowSet.as...=16&where=1999
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    Old 01-30-2013, 01:50 PM   #1136
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    part of me wants them to self produce an album but that would be a disaster given past experience, but someone like jeff could spearhead an impressive effort imo

    There has to be a producer out there that would recognize the talent in the band and would push them further than anyone before, steve is incredible but i fear they might plateau with him given this later stage in their career
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    Old 01-30-2013, 05:46 PM   #1137
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yanks7533 View Post
    part of me wants them to self produce an album but that would be a disaster given past experience, but someone like jeff could spearhead an impressive effort imo

    There has to be a producer out there that would recognize the talent in the band and would push them further than anyone before, steve is incredible but i fear they might plateau with him given this later stage in their career
    If you're expecting a return to early days quality (particularly in lyrics) then I think you should resign yourself to the fact that those days are long gone. The band is different now, and Dave is just not the lyricist he used to be. No producer will change that.
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    Old 01-31-2013, 12:18 AM   #1138
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yanks7533 View Post
    part of me wants them to self produce an album but that would be a disaster given past experience, but someone like jeff could spearhead an impressive effort imo

    There has to be a producer out there that would recognize the talent in the band and would push them further than anyone before, steve is incredible but i fear they might plateau with him given this later stage in their career
    I don't think any certain producer is the issue unless they can channel some old-school Dave through hypnosis or something. The issue is Dave's complacency and probably everyone else's secondary complacency because Dave is the reason they're all rich and famous.

    Now, a lot of this is speculation so I'm not trying to say I know what anyone is thinking, but Fonz is obviously 100% into going above and beyond based in things he's said, Jeff and RR I'm sure love every second of being in this band and are more than capable of going above and beyond, Tim and Carter can go above and beyond without even trying, and Boyd is just Boyd.

    The band is certainly capable of going into some left-field shit, I just don't think Dave wants to or cares enough.
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    Old 01-31-2013, 01:17 AM   #1139
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobbtheRevelatr View Post
    The band is different now, and Dave is just not the lyricist he used to be. No producer will change that.
    I agree that Dave isn't the lyricist he used to be. However, I do think a producer could get Dave to improve on his lyrics.

    I don't think Steve was quite as focused on that as much as he was on getting the band to produce good music, which they did. I suspect that if Lillywhite were going to really push Dave on the lyrics front, he wouldn't have wanted to do that with AFTW given the nature of coming back together after ten plus years to make that album. Would you, after having an acrimonious "break up" with the band, so to speak, want to push Dave that hard down the road that got them to where they were with tLWS?

    I think if the band and Lillywhite were to make another album together, the writing is clearly on the wall: if they're going to make an album better than AFTW, Dave has to write better lyrics; the music is there, the lyrics are not. I don't know why Lillywhite would come back if he knew the effort was going to be on par with (or potentially worse than) the last album. I'm sure he knows the lyrics could have been better on AFTW. (EDIT: Even if he doesn't publicly admit that.)
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    Last edited by hmich176; 01-31-2013 at 01:18 AM.
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    Old 02-18-2017, 10:11 AM   #1140
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    Re: Steve Lillywhite - "Found MacHead"

    So it sounds like Sweet apparently, according to Stefan.

    https://twitter.com/slessard/status/833014783356002305
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