Big 4

[TheKramer26]

Go have a listen to SMLAM from Jones Beach 2009

[bibby1044]

Originally Posted by coolhotwaves

Here's my take on it:

Big Whiskey comes out and we are all jumping for joy because the sound of the album reminds us of the band that we all love. They dropped the cheesy sound of Stand Up, and that was something to celebrate. We should all know by now that the true test of great music is how it holds up over time, and let's be honest, a lot of Big Whiskey hasn't held up well. Some of the songs just fall flat live. It could also stem from the fact that the band used to road test the majority of their material before recording it, developing the intricacy's and nuances that add depth to the songs.

It's my opinion that the latter is the reason for the slightly lower views of Big Whiskey in the last couple of years, in comparison with the year it was first released. Think of how excited we were to hear SMLAM, it had promise to be the next Too Much, and then we hear it and it just sounds "off" live.

Everything you said is spot on. The bold is completely true.

One of the reasons LITHOG stands out from the album is the room for improvisation in the live setting. Almost every other song has a set structure which is required to play it. I feel like Time Bomb could have a long drawn intro like Seek Up but they just refuse(d) to do it. I feel like if Steve was the one working on Time Bomb we would have a 6 to 8 minute studio track as opposed to the 4 minute version that was released.

[rantingthespian]

Originally Posted by DMBzilla

. . . There's no Big Four just because you think there is. The topic has been beaten to death, but the Big Three is named as such because of the overwhelming agreement across the fanbase regarding the quality of those three records (and, to a lesser extent, because it is comprised of consecutive releases representing a specific era of DMB that died sometime before February 27, 2001).

Sorry, but just because something is supported by a majority doesn't make it a fact.

To me, there is a "Big 4". Anything that you say will not change my mind about it.

Originally Posted by kittensXLI

I'm not laughing at you. It's good someone likes BW.

Sorry, I got the wrong impression from your emoticon.

[haefs11]

Originally Posted by rantingthespian

Sorry, but just because something is supported by a majority doesn't make it a fact.

To me, there is a "Big 4". Anything that you say will not change my mind about it.




Sorry, I got the wrong impression from your emoticon.

But the term big 3 mostly comes from talking on these boards, so you can't come on here saying big 4 and expect people to know what you're talking about. Especially considering most people would think that includes tLWS. You can have your opinion of BWGK being in your own big 4, but you will have to preface each time you use the term big 4.

[Evans]

The story of Big Whiskey for me is that they took "that pace" and turned it into Time Bomb. Under the proper corralling, this band takes "that pace" and turns it into something classic (hint: the "if martians fell from the sky, what would that do to God?" line would be nowhere near it).

Don't get me wrong! Big Whiskey was the best officially released studio effort in 10 years and it was leagues better than most other albums put out that year. Carter especially drummed out all his pent up studio magic that had been suppressed over the last decade. But "big 4", it was not.

I've been revisiting The Lillywhite Sessions this week......what an amazing album that would have been if Steve could have finished it with them. It would have no doubt been the proper BTCS follow-up.

[webbo_5]

Originally Posted by coolhotwaves

Every time a new album is coming out it is "the band's best yet!". I'll leave it at that.

It is a little easier to listen to it this time though with Lillywhite back.

[hmich176]

Originally Posted by rantingthespian

Sorry, but just because something is supported by a majority doesn't make it a fact.

To me, there is a "Big 4". Anything that you say will not change my mind about it.

The bold is where you're wrong. The basis of there not being a Big 4 is that there isn't a consensus about the fourth album. Some say Big Whiskey, others say tLWS, others say Busted Stuff, others say there isn't one. This is about the lack of a majority, not that there is a majority.

You can keep thinking there is a Big 4. But think a little objectively.

[#41Tom]

I'm really surprised that it seems like everyone prefers Big Whiskey to Busted Stuff...

[jray1823]

Originally Posted by haefs11

I think this is how it should be with this band. Their live performances are their life blood. And I think that is the way Big Whiskey is, I like listening to the studio album, but I don't really have a true desire to hear many of them live because they just don't translate well. See: Shake Me Like a Monkey (Fuck Me Like a Donkey)

Ya I can understand this for this band. But maybe if the band were to put out more albums more so on a Neil Young pace, they could scrap big whiskey for live shows and it would still be a good album to listen to.

Just because I'd rather hear Zuma, after the gold rush, Rust never sleeps, and ragged glory live over Harvest, it doesn't make Harvest a bad album. It's actually one of the best imo

[jray1823]

Originally Posted by #41Tom

I'm really surprised that it seems like everyone prefers Big Whiskey to Busted Stuff...

Yet everyone is in love with Lillywhite sessions.... Same effing songs minus the two in red and the shitty lyrics from Kit Kat Jam. Sure, where are you going sucks, but I'm pretty sure YNK cancels that out.

1. "Busted Stuff" – 3:48
2. "Grey Street" – 5:08
3. "Where are you going" – 3:53
4. "You Never Know" – 5:54
5. "Captain" – 3:46
6. "Raven" – 5:38
7. "Grace Is Gone" – 4:38
8. "Kit Kat Jam" – 3:35
9. "Digging a Ditch" – 4:47
10. "Big Eyed Fish" – 5:04
11. "Bartender" – 8:32

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer102

Of course he's gonna hype it up, but, as a lot of people are saying, he knows what the band's TRUE style is. Ballard and Cavallo came in after and tweaked everything the wrong way. So, in that sense, Ballard and Cavallo saying they're proud of their work is of little significance to us compared to Lillywhite saying that.

This just is not true. He came into the shittiest of situations, and got a good record out of them, and reminded them how musically dynamic they can be. He'll indirectly be responsible if this album is good, because the band clearly got something back with him. He is a very good producer.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by jray1823

Yet everyone is in love with Lillywhite sessions.... Same effing songs minus the two in red and the shitty lyrics from Kit Kat Jam. Sure, where are you going sucks, but I'm pretty sure YNK cancels that out.

1. "Busted Stuff" – 3:48
2. "Grey Street" – 5:08
3. "Where are you going" – 3:53
4. "You Never Know" – 5:54
5. "Captain" – 3:46
6. "Raven" – 5:38
7. "Grace Is Gone" – 4:38
8. "Kit Kat Jam" – 3:35
9. "Digging a Ditch" – 4:47
10. "Big Eyed Fish" – 5:04
11. "Bartender" – 8:32

I honestly don't even acknowledge Busted Stuff exists. Flat, emotionless versions of a lot of great material. I guess I'm glad it was released thus guaranteeing a lot of great songs get played live...but as an album, it's a joke. A band-aid to the fanbase that the band didn't even try on. Not to mention several songs had many elements removed from them that made them as good as they were on tLWS. Put it this way when an album that was about 70 percent done (Lillywhite's words, not mine) beats a completed, fully produced, mixed, and mastered album in every category...the finished album isn't good.

[jray1823]

Originally Posted by jaymas9

I honestly don't even acknowledge Busted Stuff exists. Flat, emotionless versions of a lot of great material. I guess I'm glad it was released thus guaranteeing a lot of great songs get played live...but as an album, it's a joke. A band-aid to the fanbase that the band didn't even try on. Not to mention several songs had many elements removed from them that made them as good as they were on tLWS. Put it this way when an album that was about 70 percent done (Lillywhite's words, not mine) beats a completed, fully produced, mixed, and mastered album in every category...the finished album isn't good.

Is this because you heard Lillywhite sessions though? On its own, would you actually consider Busted Stuff a bad album?

[pele69]

Originally Posted by jray1823

Yet everyone is in love with Lillywhite sessions.... Same effing songs minus the two in red and the shitty lyrics from Kit Kat Jam. Sure, where are you going sucks, but I'm pretty sure YNK cancels that out.

1. "Busted Stuff" – 3:48
2. "Grey Street" – 5:08
3. "Where are you going" – 3:53
4. "You Never Know" – 5:54
5. "Captain" – 3:46
6. "Raven" – 5:38
7. "Grace Is Gone" – 4:38
8. "Kit Kat Jam" – 3:35
9. "Digging a Ditch" – 4:47
10. "Big Eyed Fish" – 5:04
11. "Bartender" – 8:32

Listen to Captain on both Albums back to back and tell me that they are even close ....
Very silly comment you made.

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by rantingthespian

Sorry, but just because something is supported by a majority doesn't make it a fact.

This is entirely incorrect.

The "majority" created the moniker "Big Three" based upon the fact that it's almost unanimously agreed upon across the fanbase that UTTAD, Crash and BTCS are all excellent albums (most consider them the band's three best albums). If you ask someone what the "Big Four" consists of, nearly all responses will include the three aforementioned albums, plus either BWGK, BS, or LWS; hence, there is no consensus as to what makes up the Big Four, and therefore there is no Big Four.

You can like another album as much, and it's great that you do, but just because you personally feel that way doesn't mean a Big Four exists.

Originally Posted by jray1823

Yet everyone is in love with Lillywhite sessions.... Same effing songs minus the two in red and the shitty lyrics from Kit Kat Jam. Sure, where are you going sucks, but I'm pretty sure YNK cancels that out.

1. "Busted Stuff" – 3:48
2. "Grey Street" – 5:08
3. "Where are you going" – 3:53
4. "You Never Know" – 5:54
5. "Captain" – 3:46
6. "Raven" – 5:38
7. "Grace Is Gone" – 4:38
8. "Kit Kat Jam" – 3:35
9. "Digging a Ditch" – 4:47
10. "Big Eyed Fish" – 5:04
11. "Bartender" – 8:32

There is no comparison between LWS and BS.

First, look at the unique songs -- JTR, Sweet Up & Down and Monkey Man vs. YNK and WAYG. YNK is a great song, but you're comparing three great songs to one great song and one below-average (at best) song.

Second, the overall production quality of the unfinished LWS trumps BS across the board. The latter just sounds too polished, while LWS sounds honest and, most importantly, more like DMB.

Lastly, most songs are better on LWS than BS, with some exceptions.

Point being, you can't just look at the songs and say they're the same, because they're not in the least.

[jray1823]

Originally Posted by pele69

Listen to Captain on both Albums back to back and tell me that they are even close ....
Very silly comment you made.

So Dave changed the lyrics to the song, which on lws were awkward and unfinished.. Who says he wouldn't have made the same changes with lillywhite?

Originally Posted by DMBzilla

There is no comparison between LWS and BS.

First, look at the unique songs -- JTR, Sweet Up & Down and Monkey Man vs. YNK and WAYG. YNK is a great song, but you're comparing three great songs to one great song and one below-average (at best) song.

Second, the overall production quality of the unfinished LWS trumps BS across the board. The latter just sounds too polished, while LWS sounds honest and, most importantly, more like DMB.

Lastly, most songs are better on LWS than BS, with some exceptions.

Point being, you can't just look at the songs and say they're the same, because they're not in the least.

Yes, there is no comparison because LWS was not complete! It was just some raw recordings that we all heard in shitty mp3 quality when napster came out. NOT an album

Also, Who says those three songs would have made Lillywhite's album.

And how can u say lws were better because they weren't actually polished? It was incomplete and raw. Maybe you like it because of that, a big reason why people like old lps of jimi hendrix or prefer albums that are made live. DMB is a live band, so it makes sense that you prefer the more raw cut, but that does not mean that lillywhite wouldn't have polished them if given the chance.

I'm not doubting that the album could have gone differently, but Busted stuff is a great album. Maybe a lot of great albums had some great things in the studio that never made it to the final piece. You can't hate something because of its potential, just enjoy what it is.

[TreySteck18]

Originally Posted by DMBzilla

This is entirely incorrect.

The "majority" created the moniker "Big Three" based upon the fact that it's almost unanimously agreed upon across the fanbase that UTTAD, Crash and BTCS are all excellent albums (most consider them the band's three best albums). If you ask someone what the "Big Four" consists of, nearly all responses will include the three aforementioned albums, plus either BWGK, BS, or LWS; hence, there is no consensus as to what makes up the Big Four, and therefore there is no Big Four.

You can like another album as much, and it's great that you do, but just because you personally feel that way doesn't mean a Big Four exists.



There is no comparison between LWS and BS.

First, look at the unique songs -- JTR, Sweet Up & Down and Monkey Man vs. YNK and WAYG. YNK is a great song, but you're comparing three great songs to one great song and one below-average (at best) song.

Second, the overall production quality of the unfinished LWS trumps BS across the board. The latter just sounds too polished, while LWS sounds honest and, most importantly, more like DMB.

Lastly, most songs are better on LWS than BS, with some exceptions.

Point being, you can't just look at the songs and say they're the same, because they're not in the least.

^^ One of the most ignorant and incorrect statements I have ever seen. In no way does support from the majority make anything a fact.

In this case, its just accepted that UTTAD, Crash and BTCS are the "better" albums because the others have a different sound, so "Big Three" is just a term to refer to all three of them at a time. In no way does that mean there isn't room for BW, or LWS or BS if one thinks that it is up to par with the B3.

In no way does a majority's opinion make something a fact

[Dramageek]

Originally Posted by jray1823

So Dave changed the lyrics to the song, which on lws were awkward and unfinished.. Who says he wouldn't have made the same changes with lillywhite?



Yes, there is no comparison because LWS was not complete! It was just some raw recordings that we all heard in shitty mp3 quality when napster came out. NOT an album

Also, Who says those three songs would have made Lillywhite's album.

And how can u say lws were better because they weren't actually polished? It was incomplete and raw. Maybe you like it because of that, a big reason why people like old lps of jimi hendrix or prefer albums that are made live. DMB is a live band, so it makes sense that you prefer the more raw cut, but that does not mean that lillywhite wouldn't have polished them if given the chance.

I'm not doubting that the album could have gone differently, but Busted stuff is a great album. Maybe a lot of great albums had some great things in the studio that never made it to the final piece. You can't hate something because of its potential, just enjoy what it is.

I am going to argue that, with the exceptions of Kit Kat Jam, Raven and the lyrics to Grey Street, the songs on tLWS were pretty damn complete. I know there was no mastering and final polishing, but the album was set to be another great effort from the band. I think ultimately Busted Stuff is a solid album, but they cut the nuts out of Captain and Big Eyed Fish, and Bartender lost some punch. I also kind of prefer the rough lyrics to Grey Street, but not by a large margin. So, in the end, yes, I prefer the "incomplete and raw" LWS to what became the final product.

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by jray1823

Yes, there is no comparison because LWS was not complete! It was just some raw recordings that we all heard in shitty mp3 quality when napster came out. NOT an album

Yeah, I guess the remastered lossless versions I have aren't comparable either.

Originally Posted by jray1823

Also, Who says those three songs would have made Lillywhite's album.

And how can u say lws were better because they weren't actually polished? It was incomplete and raw. Maybe you like it because of that, a big reason why people like old lps of jimi hendrix or prefer albums that are made live. DMB is a live band, so it makes sense that you prefer the more raw cut, but that does not mean that lillywhite wouldn't have polished them if given the chance.

Who cares what he would have done? In fact, why is that even being mentioned? I'm comparing WHAT WE HAVE to what was released in BS, and in that regard LWS is better. The band sounds more like DMB. The production of the album to that point is better. The sound of LWS isn't that different from UTTAD or BTCS, so I don't really know what you're trying to prove.

Originally Posted by jray1823

I'm not doubting that the album could have gone differently, but Busted stuff is a great album. Maybe a lot of great albums had some great things in the studio that never made it to the final piece. You can't hate something because of its potential, just enjoy what it is.

Sure I can. I heard how great most songs on LWS sounded, and then I heard them decline in quality on BS.

[hmich176]

Originally Posted by TreySteck18

^^ One of the most ignorant and incorrect statements I have ever seen. In no way does support from the majority make anything a fact.

In this case, its just accepted that UTTAD, Crash and BTCS are the "better" albums because the others have a different sound, so "Big Three" is just a term to refer to all three of them at a time. In no way does that mean there isn't room for BW, or LWS or BS if one thinks that it is up to par with the B3.

In no way does a majority's opinion make something a fact

The reason why there isn't the Big 4 is because there isn't a common consensus on what the fourth album is. There is no one album that currently exists that could fit the Big 4 because the fourth album is a variable, not a constant.

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by TreySteck18

^^ One of the most ignorant and incorrect statements I have ever seen. In no way does support from the majority make anything a fact.

In this case, its just accepted that UTTAD, Crash and BTCS are the "better" albums because the others have a different sound, so "Big Three" is just a term to refer to all three of them at a time. In no way does that mean there isn't room for BW, or LWS or BS if one thinks that it is up to par with the B3.

In no way does a majority's opinion make something a fact

You clearly missed the point.

It is a fact that the term "Big Three" was adopted by the fanbase to specifically refer to UTTAD, Crash and BTCS. This was entirely based upon the opinion of the majority.

That doesn't mean that you have to like those three albums most, or that you can't consider another album as good as any of those three. However, without a general consensus, there simply cannot be a Big Four.

[TreySteck18]

Originally Posted by DMBzilla

You clearly missed the point.

It is a fact that the term "Big Three" was adopted by the fanbase to specifically refer to UTTAD, Crash and BTCS. This was entirely based upon the opinion of the majority.

That doesn't mean that you have to like those three albums most, or that you can't consider another album as good as any of those three. However, without a general consensus, there simply cannot be a Big Four.

Fair enough. Just got offended at the overall statement that majority=fact. When applied to many other situations, then it is far from true

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by TreySteck18

Fair enough. Just got offended at the overall statement that majority=fact. When applied to many other situations, then it is far from true

Sometimes, majority can equal, or create, a fact.

For example, as I said, it is a fact that "Big Three" means UTTAD/Crash/BTCS. This was a majority opinion that became fan. It is also a fact that the term "Big Four" is meaningless, because there is no majority consensus on what it includes.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by jray1823

Is this because you heard Lillywhite sessions though? On its own, would you actually consider Busted Stuff a bad album?

The recording is flat in general, very uninspired, vocally bartender is the only track that stands out, and maybe grey street. Sonically it is very clearly it is not a Lillywhite produced album. A lot of intricacy is just not there. The record sounds exactly like what it is, dull and uninspired. They recorded the songs for the sake of recording the songs. Luckily the songs at their core are very good..but as an album, it just is not there.

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by jaymas9

The recording is flat in general, very uninspired, vocally bartender is the only track that stands out, and maybe grey street. Sonically it is very clearly it is not a Lillywhite produced album. A lot of intricacy is just not there. The record sounds exactly like what it is, dull and uninspired. They recorded the songs for the sake of recording the songs. Luckily the songs at their core are very good..but as an album, it just is not there.

I've been saying the exact same thing since BS was released. It's not bad, but it's not good either. As an album, I'd put BWGK ahead of it; as a collection of songs, it kills BWGK.

[LJCoviello]

Busted Stuff IS flat, emotionless, and unimpressive, but the Lillywhite Sessions IS NOT an album, in that there was never a finished product. To use tLWS in any of these arguments is akin to using studio outtakes or demos.

[Dramageek]

Originally Posted by LJCoviello

Busted Stuff IS flat, emotionless, and unimpressive, but the Lillywhite Sessions IS NOT an album, in that there was never a finished product. To use tLWS in any of these arguments is akin to using studio outtakes or demos.

At this point we are arguing semantics. But this semantical argument is why there is no universally recognized "Big 4." Many people prefer the "raw" and "unfinished" versions of the songs on tLWS to the final products on Busted Stuff. Because Busted Stuff as an album is less than great despite the strong collection of songs, and because tLWS technically isn't an "album," neither got elevated to the same level as UTTAD, Crash and BTCS.

[jray1823]

Originally Posted by DMBzilla

Yeah, I guess the remastered lossless versions I have aren't comparable either.

Remastered Lossless? Lossless from what?

[crashintonickdm]

how bad is it then that a studio unfinished album is better than the last 3 things this band has done? according to them too, they put their hearts and souls into each project. we see them spew out bullshit during every studio interview around the time of a release.

[DMBzilla]

Originally Posted by LJCoviello

Busted Stuff IS flat, emotionless, and unimpressive, but the Lillywhite Sessions IS NOT an album, in that there was never a finished product. To use tLWS in any of these arguments is akin to using studio outtakes or demos.

I think whether LWS is an album or not is debatable, though it is certainly unfinished. However, the fact that an unfinished collection of songs is held in higher regard than a finished collection of most of those same songs is very telling as to the overall quality of BS.