Gotham (FOX Show)

[wampa3]

Anybody catch the premier? I dug it. Definitely some ham-fisted exposition throughout, but that's to be expected with any new series. Hoping it keeps up a good pace.

[TrippinNancies1]

Fish Mooney is Mr. Freeze. Book it.

[chadizzy1]

I like it. I think it's a very well done show.

For anyone with kids, the "comedian" who may become the Joker is Twist from the Fresh Beat Band.

[M. Steng]

I thought the pilot was very, very good. My girlfriend kept complaining that it was boring, so I kicked her out of the room . Not every episode of every show on TV has to be gunshots and explosions. I thought it was well-done, obviously with a pilot it's tricky because you have to spend a good amount of time introducing the characters and their roles, but I think it sets a good foundation for what's to come. I think the take on Bullock is interesting, how he's so into the game, has made all the right connections, etc. Definitely a bit of a departure from his characterization from the more recent comics, reminded me more of Flass from Batman Begins. But I really love that actor, so I think it'll be a nice change of pace. The dialogue was just a bit on the cheesy side for me, but I'm sure the writers will work out some of the kinks as they get deeper into the season. Overall I'd give it somewhere between a 7.5-8/10. Very good, but not great.

Btw, the chick that plays Catwoman is very strange looking. Almost so much so that it makes me uncomfortable. They couldn't have cast a better looking or at least more normal looking person? Holy moly.

[wampa3]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

I like it. I think it's a very well done show.

For anyone with kids, the "comedian" who may become the Joker is Twist from the Fresh Beat Band.

Totally didn't think about that comedian as being the Joker. Good call! Right out of the Killing Joke. Good on the writers for that nod.

[chadizzy1]

I love what this show is setting up.

Some of the more obvious ones - Catwoman, Bullock, Ed Nygma (Riddler), Ivy "Poison Ivy" Pepper and The Penguin were fairly obvious.

Also, a LOT of neat Easter Eggs from the comics.

The dancers at Fish Mooney's club were very obviously wearing Harley Quinn-esque outfits. If you're interested in her backstory, The Batman Adventures: Mad Love is a good read. (Batman Adventures: Mad Love)

The "tougher" Alfred is probably inspired by Earth One Alfred - he was ex military. (Alfred Earth One)

Mayor James is also from the comics, from before the Waynes were shot. From the "Madmen of Gotham" arc of the Legends of the Dark Knight comic. An obscure pull, the only time I can recall him being mentioned was in this comic which came out around the time of the original Batman movie. (Madmen Of Gotham)

Lt. Essen was also in the comics, and has an interesting backstory, it won't let me spoiler it in this post so I'll post it in a second post.
She appeared in Batman Year One, and again later in Legends of the Dark Knight. (Legends of the Dark Knight), (Batman Year One)

"The Comedian" - as I mentioned earlier, if you read "The Killing Joke" - a possible backstory for the Joker was that he was a stand-up comedian. (The Killing Joke)

Montoya and Allen are directly from the Gotham Central series of comics that focused a lot on Gotham Police. (Gotham Central Comic)

The Roman (Falcone) was from Batman Year One. Also in the Batman Begins film. (Batman Year One)

4th and Grundy was a neat nod to Solomon Grundy. (Solomon Grundy)

Barbara Kean (future Mrs. Gordon) lives in an apartment that has a clock tower face looking out on the city. She eventually became Oracle and provided intel to superheroes. And her headquarters was in a clock tower, so a nice nod to that character.

If you remember in Arrow, Canary's headquarters was in a clock tower which was eventually destroyed. But Canary and Oracle had a series as well that's a good read. (Birds of Prey)

And I didn't directly observe this but a friend told me in graffiti on one of the rooftops when the camera does a pan, you can see the word "Smile" spray painted in red (maybe a nod to the Joker). I'll be rewatching today to see if I can catch it.

[chadizzy1]

As I mentioned above, in the comics (regarding Lt. Essen):

she has an affair with Jim Gordon and eventually they get married.

Click the "Show Spoiler" Button to reveal hidden text.

[sheldonlevene]

Good breakdown Chad. I enjoyed the pilot for what it was. An introduction to this version of Gotham and the characters that will occupy it.

Like someone above said, some of the dialog was overly expository, but I'm hoping that will come along. Gordon, imo, was a little too tough/cynical/rough around the edges for me. This was more or less his first day on the job in Gotham. I'm 100% ok with him becoming more hardened, but I would have enjoyed him starting out a bit more optimistic.

One thing I didn't like was the "they're all interconnected" thing. Not sure why Selina had to witness the Wayne's murder. Sidenote: she must have the best knees ever. Crouched dang near the entire show.

[WidespreadMule3]

So, it was worth a watch? I didn't get to check it last night but I thought I'd give it a watch one night this week.

[sheldonlevene]

^ Short answer: yes

[chadizzy1]

Rewatched again this morning and caught a scene where Detective Allen said “Stay Frosty” - I wonder if they could set him up to become Mr. Freeze or Captain Cold? (obviously would have to change his backstory)

I know the show runners said Mr. Freeze would be in the show, so that could be an interesting set up, but going by how they've kept pretty close to canon so far, I can't imagine that would happen. Just seemed an odd choice of words to randomly say in a pilot where everything seemed to have meaning behind it.

[chadizzy1]

An interesting look at what "could" happen with Montoya and Allen from the comics:

Also another couple that I didn't mention - Montoya eventually becomes "The Question" (passed on from Vic Sage) and Allen eventually becomes "The Spectre" - both DC universe heroes. In DC Comics, the Presence is the comic version of "God", and the Spectre is the voice of The Presence - one of the hosts the Presence passes (or rather forces) the Spectre on to is Allen.

This would cancel out Allen becoming Mr. Freeze or Captain Cold unless they change canon.

Click the "Show Spoiler" Button to reveal hidden text.

[Jordan#41]

"The Comedian" - as I mentioned earlier, if you read "The Killing Joke" - a possible backstory for the Joker was that he was a stand-up comedian. (The Killing Joke)


Chad,

Has it been confirmed that the comedian kid was in fact the Joker? Or this has yet to be established?

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by Jordan#41

"The Comedian" - as I mentioned earlier, if you read "The Killing Joke" - a possible backstory for the Joker was that he was a stand-up comedian. (The Killing Joke)


Chad,

Has it been confirmed that the comedian kid was in fact the Joker? Or this has yet to be established?

I haven't watched it yet, but from everything I've seen and read there is no definite Joker yet. They want to draw it out for a while and not dive right into The Joker. They said there may be little teases here and there but in the end it may be a complete surprise.

[sheldonlevene]

Yeah, I read on a different site that they'll likely have multiple nods (Easter eggs w/e you want to call them) to various elements of Joker's backstory, but will hold off, possibly entirely, on showing him.

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by Jordan#41

"The Comedian" - as I mentioned earlier, if you read "The Killing Joke" - a possible backstory for the Joker was that he was a stand-up comedian. (The Killing Joke)


Chad,

Has it been confirmed that the comedian kid was in fact the Joker? Or this has yet to be established?

No, no confirmation. From what I read the show runners plan to tease "multiple" jokers throughout the show, I guess to mess with us. We won't know until it's "announced" on the show, which one actually is the joker. I think it's neat - it'll keep the audience guessing and reading into easter eggs, like Beavers showing up as a Comedian.

This is what's been said about it so far:

http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-seri...-facts-batman/

* Joker is coming, but it’s going to be a slow-burn and carefully built reveal.
* It’ll be a darker sort of Joker (like Heath Ledger), but a new design; they aren’t shying away from interpreting the character for their own universe.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/07/...ode-of-gotham/

" Basically, every episode in the first season will introduce a character that might be a future Joker, each emphasising aspects of the character’s iconography, a card sharp, a flower seller, a clown, or just a guy with a very big grin.

All relatively unknown actors. All potentially a Joker. But only one of them being the actual Clown Prince Of Crime.

Get ready to be Joker-teased on a weekly basis…."

[KevinTH]

Even better than I hoped it would be. They really captured the gritty Gotham as it should be. If there's ONE complaint I have about the Dark Knight Trilogy it's that Gotham lost a bit of it's character after Batman Begins. Gotham was absolutely perfect in Batman Begins, and the show reminds me a lot of that. But once we hit The Dark Knight it was obvious that we were in Chicago, and then in The Dark Knight Rises we were in NY, Pittsburgh and LA. The city is such an important part to Batman and if the first episode is any indication then this should be a great show.

[junior94]

I find it a little disheartening this is supposedly the best fall pilot out of them all, because about the first 2/3rds of it, I thought the writing was downright awful. And the exposition, good lord they were an inch away from just holding up cue cards to the camera with information written on them. I mean I know it can be difficult to establish certain things at the start, but talented people can pull it off with you barely even noticing. Granted, they even things out quite a bit by the end, so I'll happily watch the next couple of episodes, but it was a rough time getting there.

And I'd heard that most of the future villains would be obvious but that they'd lay out a few red herrings of who would turn out to be the Joker. But that scene of watching Mooney auditioning the stand up comic, it's like I know they THINK they were doing something sly there, but I felt like it was pounded over my head with a hammer. It was like "hey ya see, he's really funny, he's making Fish Mooney laugh (and luckily they have her straight out tell us that), why... you could almost call him a JOKE-r!!" oye vay.
Having Cobblepot literally walk like a penguin as Gordon is leading him to the edge of the dock? please tell me they're going to at least try to be more subtle.

[coldengrey12]

I agree with Kevin a lot. This was pretty bleh for me.

I thought Falcone was the best thing in the pilot. And not just because he was played by John Doman (aka Bill Rawls from The Wire). If they can do more stuff like that scene between him and Gordon, this thing might have a prayer.

The little tips of the cap to all of the future Batman villains were unnecessary and insulting. We know this show is set in that universe. It's fucking called Gotham, not Metropolis. Tell your own story, not the one we've seen before.

[junior94]

well I mean, from what I understand it's not really a "tip of the cap" at all, that these long established villains in the zeitgeist, most if not all of them will feature prominently in the show. And it's all about Gordon descending into a drawn out war with these characters that gets worse and worse, thereby prompting the need for Batman at the very end. But even setting up these villains in their younger days, okay the viewer knows they'll be around for a little while so you don't a big info dump on each one to identify them. But practically each one here in the pilot, they had the details and exposition just battling together in some fireworks show. It's like okay writers, you can be a weeeeee bit more subtle about it than that.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by coldengrey12

I agree with Kevin a lot. This was pretty bleh for me.

I thought Falcone was the best thing in the pilot. And not just because he was played by John Doman (aka Bill Rawls from The Wire). If they can do more stuff like that scene between him and Gordon, this thing might have a prayer.

The little tips of the cap to all of the future Batman villains were unnecessary and insulting. We know this show is set in that universe. It's fucking called Gotham, not Metropolis. Tell your own story, not the one we've seen before.

How would you have presented those characters? Just have them be normal-looking, normal-sounding people? Normal people don't become supervillians in the comics (most of the time). Of course Penguin is going to be slimy, scheming, etc. before he makes it to the top as an arms/black-market dealer, of course Riddler is going to be nerdy and quirky and obsessed with clues/riddles/quips.

[wampa3]

My hope is that the pilot was there to just establish the city/universe of the show and that episodes here on out will be more focused. It would be a bit ridiculous if they followed the path all of the rogues gallery every episode. It would be like Spiderman 3 if it was 12 hours long.

[cooke726]

I think the introduction of future criminals was done really well (with the exception of Ivy, and Catwomen, they seemed forced), but the Nigma intro, and Copperpot I thought was done perfectly. Personally I hope at some point in this show they finally bring "Black Mask" into the batman story line.

[wampa3]

Of all of the exposition, I think Poison Ivy bothered me the most. First off, no need/reason to change her name (Pamela Isley/Ivy Pepper). It's a nit pick, but completely unnecessary IMO. Second, every shot of her in the episode has her hovering around some indoor plant. Come on writers, you're better than that.

I still say that the show did a pretty good job and i was engaged throughout most of it. I will reserve judgement until we get a few more episodes in.

[Jordan#41]

Originally Posted by coldengrey12

I agree with Kevin a lot. This was pretty bleh for me.

I thought Falcone was the best thing in the pilot. And not just because he was played by John Doman (aka Bill Rawls from The Wire). If they can do more stuff like that scene between him and Gordon, this thing might have a prayer.

The little tips of the cap to all of the future Batman villains were unnecessary and insulting. We know this show is set in that universe. It's fucking called Gotham, not Metropolis. Tell your own story, not the one we've seen before.

Maurice Levy (Attorney from The Wire) also made an appearance in the pilot playing the police officer who who found Bruce Wayne's parents killed.

[WidespreadMule3]

Watched it last night. It was really good. I think it has a lot of potential and it's very cool the way they have all the "bad guys" set up right now. I caught myself kept thinking "I wonder when Batman is gonna show up!" But he's still a kid :/

Only problem was some of the dialogue. It was pretty cheesy and cliche in some scenes. However, it still wasn't near as bad as Agents of Shield.

Last thought. Gordon's slampiece was HOT!

[Jordan#41]

Originally Posted by WidespreadMule3

Watched it last night. It was really good. I think it has a lot of potential and it's very cool the way they have all the "bad guys" set up right now. I caught myself kept thinking "I wonder when Batman is gonna show up!" But he's still a kid :/

Only problem was some of the dialogue. It was pretty cheesy and cliche in some scenes. However, it still wasn't near as bad as Agents of Shield.

Last thought. Gordon's slampiece was HOT!

Such a smoke show!

[KevinTH]

It was definitely not without it's flaws, but I really enjoyed it. I'm not big on the whole idea of seeing a bunch of characters in their younger years and finding out that in some way they all crossed paths before (probably why I never watched Smallville). So my hopes weren't incredibly high. But I'm a HUGE Batman fan and a fan of his whole world so I figured I'd give it a shot.

I can agree that knowing Selina Kyle was there when Bruce's parents were killed, or having Ivy around, and Nigma crossing paths with Gordon just feels a bit forced. the first episode did not need to have 6 villains introduced all at once - we get it, you're going to have Poison Ivy and The Riddler in the show. However, while the writers weren't very subtle about it, the characters were really just touched upon. It's not like they spent 10 minutes on each character, so my hope is that they did that just for the pilot to get people excited a bit. They're ARE doing a show based on the world of Batman and it doesn't have Batman in it. So my guess is that they just wanted to drop a few characters in there to make people interested. That being said, I find the relationship between Gordon and Bullock compelling enough and I am REALLY liking Penguin, so hopefully they're done with the little character drops and get back to the real story. My thought is that you have to trust your writing and the viewers interest in it. If there is a compelling enough story then you won't need to drop the unsubtle hints like Poison Ivy or Riddler. Just focus on the story at hand and let those characters fit into it naturally along the way. Penguin fit in perfectly. It would be cool if they just focused on one villain a season. So this season would be a focus on the Penguin and his rise to power within Gotham and then next season take the focus off of him a bit and bring in another villain and so on. This show can be really great or it could become a victim of the Spider-man 3 disaster.

[Jordan#41]

Originally Posted by KevinTH5

It was definitely not without it's flaws, but I really enjoyed it. I'm not big on the whole idea of seeing a bunch of characters in their younger years and finding out that in some way they all crossed paths before (probably why I never watched Smallville). So my hopes weren't incredibly high. But I'm a HUGE Batman fan and a fan of his whole world so I figured I'd give it a shot.

I can agree that knowing Selina Kyle was there when Bruce's parents were killed, or having Ivy around, and Nigma crossing paths with Gordon just feels a bit forced. the first episode did not need to have 6 villains introduced all at once - we get it, you're going to have Poison Ivy and The Riddler in the show. However, while the writers weren't very subtle about it, the characters were really just touched upon. It's not like they spent 10 minutes on each character, so my hope is that they did that just for the pilot to get people excited a bit. They're ARE doing a show based on the world of Batman and it doesn't have Batman in it. So my guess is that they just wanted to drop a few characters in there to make people interested. That being said, I find the relationship between Gordon and Bullock compelling enough and I am REALLY liking Penguin, so hopefully they're done with the little character drops and get back to the real story. My thought is that you have to trust your writing and the viewers interest in it. If there is a compelling enough story then you won't need to drop the unsubtle hints like Poison Ivy or Riddler. Just focus on the story at hand and let those characters fit into it naturally along the way. Penguin fit in perfectly. It would be cool if they just focused on one villain a season. So this season would be a focus on the Penguin and his rise to power within Gotham and then next season take the focus off of him a bit and bring in another villain and so on. This show can be really great or it could become a victim of the Spider-man 3 disaster.

I think the writers were just trying to get the viewers excited about what's to come. I will agree, the Riddler introduction was unnecessary and forced. We still have a handful of villains yet to be introduced (Joker, Mr. Freeze, Harvey Dent). And yes, Penguin was the best part of the pilot episode. His ending scene was fantastic.

[KevinTH]

I will wait to pass full judgment on the show until we're about mid-season, but so far I think the first episode shows a lot of promise. They just need to stick to something and go with it and not try to jam too much into one season. I can understand their hesitations given the fact that there is no Batman in the show, but good writing is good writing so hopefully they rely on that.