** Official Obama Thread ** - Page 998 - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 09-23-2012, 07:26 AM   #29911
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Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by opshannon View Post
They did it through reconciliation. Try google.
All he said was that the left forced it through, which they did, no?
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  • Old 09-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #29912
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    Serious question for lefties or left leaning folks:

    When taxes increase for the wealthy and they are paying their fair share and not one thing in this country changes, what will be your running platform? What will your next "solution" be? Unemployment has become a lost cause with the left. The stimulus was a complete failure and the only idea on the table is higher taxes. I just don't see how anyone can envision real solutions to these problems with this admin.
    An interesting question. What happens when taxes are raised on the wealthy and nothing changes, i.e. the economy continues to recover? Since the Republicans entire economic platform is based on the demonstrably false premise that lowering taxes will unleash the 'job creators' from the shackles of over-taxation by the greedy government.

    Will they STFU when their ideas are proven false once again? I think not.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 09:33 AM   #29913
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    All he said was that the left forced it through, which they did, no?
    "Forced through" in the same way that the Bush tax cuts were. Reconciliation can only be used in certain types of legislation, so it is not an end all solution to Republican obstructionism.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 10:02 AM   #29914
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    Serious question for lefties or left leaning folks:

    When taxes increase for the wealthy and they are paying their fair share and not one thing in this country changes, what will be your running platform? What will your next "solution" be? Unemployment has become a lost cause with the left. The stimulus was a complete failure and the only idea on the table is higher taxes. I just don't see how anyone can envision real solutions to these problems with this admin.
    Well, it's not simply the idea of raising taxes on the rich will solve all the problems. At least for sane people, it's not. I know there's plenty of lefties shouting that. It's sort of a mix. The way I see it, the problem is that you have the lower class that can get all sorts of tax breaks to pay as little tax as possible, and you have the upper class who get all sorts of tax breaks to pay as little tax as possible, and then you have the middle class that kinda gets fucked on taxes often. That's what's not really fair. It's just weird that rich people get these preferential treatments tailored for the rich that can cut your tax burden in half or more and middle class gets generic save $43 here and there.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 01:35 PM   #29915
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    An interesting question. What happens when taxes are raised on the wealthy and nothing changes, i.e. the economy continues to recover? Since the Republicans entire economic platform is based on the demonstrably false premise that lowering taxes will unleash the 'job creators' from the shackles of over-taxation by the greedy government.

    Will they STFU when their ideas are proven false once again? I think not.
    The economy continues to recover? Surely you jest. Without QE1-3, the plane has crashed into the mountain. I don't even believe that's a partisan opinion.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #29916
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    "Forced through" in the same way that the Bush tax cuts were. Reconciliation can only be used in certain types of legislation, so it is not an end all solution to Republican obstructionism.
    Republican obstruction is the end all solution. People forget that, although the pres is dem, congress is not....And that was also voted upon. Because BO won te pres, doesn't mean that everyone thongs BO's ideas are the bee's knees. Just a "the more you know"...for free!! (see, us righties don't profit on everything!)
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    Old 09-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #29917
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zajDmB1 View Post
    Well, it's not simply the idea of raising taxes on the rich will solve all the problems. At least for sane people, it's not. I know there's plenty of lefties shouting that. It's sort of a mix. The way I see it, the problem is that you have the lower class that can get all sorts of tax breaks to pay as little tax as possible, and you have the upper class who get all sorts of tax breaks to pay as little tax as possible, and then you have the middle class that kinda gets fucked on taxes often. That's what's not really fair. It's just weird that rich people get these preferential treatments tailored for the rich that can cut your tax burden in half or more and middle class gets generic save $43 here and there.
    Okay. I get that, I really do. Let's say a family of four can save $45/month with a reduced tax rate that is now being absorbed by the upper class. (so high income taxes increase and middle income taxes decrease.). That family will enjoy an extra $540/year. Do you think that will really make a difference?

    Next, a "rich" person can make the money up that much faster. So, you take some from the rich and give to the poor (for lack of more eloquent expression). What happens when that rich person creates the same or larger gap in income? Is the thought that, and this is a serious question, that taxes are consistently reset to accomodate this? If you start with 2k and I start with 200k, and we both get 20% back, I am always, always, always going to have more than you. I think that's where I get "lost" in the "liberal agenda". And, I don't mean that rudely at all. I just don't see the end game or finish line. As a conservative, I feel like I see the end game clearly... Be responsible for yourself about 99.99% of the time. To me, it's as simple as resetting expectations of our society (specifically raising them, whereas I see the liberal viewpoint as decreasing them).
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    Old 09-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #29918
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    An interesting question. What happens when taxes are raised on the wealthy and nothing changes, i.e. the economy continues to recover? Since the Republicans entire economic platform is based on the demonstrably false premise that lowering taxes will unleash the 'job creators' from the shackles of over-taxation by the greedy government.

    Will they STFU when their ideas are proven false once again? I think not.
    every President that has lowered taxes (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush II) has seen job increases, and an economy take off.


    Please don't troll with false claims. We're not doing that stuff in here.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 05:44 PM   #29919
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    An interesting question. What happens when taxes are raised on the wealthy and nothing changes, i.e. the economy continues to recover? Since the Republicans entire economic platform is based on the demonstrably false premise that lowering taxes will unleash the 'job creators' from the shackles of over-taxation by the greedy government.

    Will they STFU when their ideas are proven false once again? I think not.
    the economy isnt recovering.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 05:53 PM   #29920
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    every President that has lowered taxes (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush II) has seen job increases, and an economy take off.


    Please don't troll with false claims. We're not doing that stuff in here.
    Then please read your first sentence.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 07:02 PM   #29921
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    An interesting question. What happens when taxes are raised on the wealthy and nothing changes, i.e. the economy continues to recover? Since the Republicans entire economic platform is based on the demonstrably false premise that lowering taxes will unleash the 'job creators' from the shackles of over-taxation by the greedy government.

    Will they STFU when their ideas are proven false once again? I think not.
    Wait, what idea has been proven false?
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    Old 09-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #29922
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShotgunDMB View Post
    Wait, what idea has been proven false?
    don't even bother... it's revisionist history week here in the Prompter... where facts from the past suddenly don't matter.
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    Old 09-23-2012, 09:40 PM   #29923
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    Okay. I get that, I really do. Let's say a family of four can save $45/month with a reduced tax rate that is now being absorbed by the upper class. (so high income taxes increase and middle income taxes decrease.). That family will enjoy an extra $540/year. Do you think that will really make a difference?

    Next, a "rich" person can make the money up that much faster. So, you take some from the rich and give to the poor (for lack of more eloquent expression). What happens when that rich person creates the same or larger gap in income? Is the thought that, and this is a serious question, that taxes are consistently reset to accomodate this? If you start with 2k and I start with 200k, and we both get 20% back, I am always, always, always going to have more than you. I think that's where I get "lost" in the "liberal agenda". And, I don't mean that rudely at all. I just don't see the end game or finish line. As a conservative, I feel like I see the end game clearly... Be responsible for yourself about 99.99% of the time. To me, it's as simple as resetting expectations of our society (specifically raising them, whereas I see the liberal viewpoint as decreasing them).
    Again, there's a few different points that this touches on, which I think is why it's so hard for any remotely reasonable compromise to even be approached, let alone made. There's so many angles to look at, there will also be a group who disagrees with at least 1.

    But anyway, it's sort of the principal of things (which is obviously already where our ideologies will differ most likely). I don't think this idea of rich people are evil, raise their taxes, yada yada yada would be nearly as much of a thing if the economy was good or even fine. What's happened, though, is during a time of shittiness, more and more things keep popping up to make it very apparent our financial system kowtows to a relatively very small group of people, not to mention the al ighty ollar. OWS would not have ever existed if WS didn't make dumb bets, fuck the economy, get bailed out and give people record bonuses year after year. That's why there's issues; the seemingly free reign these people get. And sure there's exception, but like the Indian guy and Madoff, it's usually not until the crime has hit the hundreds of millions, if not billions.

    It's not anything, again for sane people, against capitalism or making money, it's about the obvious fixed system working against the majority of americans. The tax system is just an obvious target. I really think it's less about stealing from the rich and giving to the poor and more about either 'give us the free passes those guys get' or 'they fucked this up and/or benefitted from it, make them fix it.' And if even the idea of wiping out a bunch of debt, or getting our credit rating back up, or whatever would be beneficial since most shit is all speculation anyway, raised taxes might be an easy solution, at least short-term.

    Last edited by zajDmB1; 09-23-2012 at 09:43 PM.
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    Old 09-24-2012, 12:21 AM   #29924
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShotgunDMB View Post
    Wait, what idea has been proven false?
    Supply-side economics.
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    Old 09-24-2012, 12:24 AM   #29925
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    every President that has lowered taxes (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush II) has seen job increases, and an economy take off.


    Please don't troll with false claims. We're not doing that stuff in here.
    Conveniently you leave out that the one who raised them saw greater increases. Talk about revisionist....
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    Old 09-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #29926
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    Supply-side economics.
    Yeah, economy was terrible 1983-2008. Gotta pin that housing crisis on supply side economics.
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    Old 09-25-2012, 02:48 AM   #29927
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    This is very true. Mitt is only helping Obama get re-elected.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard...p_ref=politics
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    Old 09-25-2012, 04:05 AM   #29928
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elliott Evans View Post
    This is very true. Mitt is only helping Obama get re-elected.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard...p_ref=politics
    Good article. Haven't really thought about the election from that angle. A better Republican candidate would be producing a better President Obama instead of one that's coasting and being as unspecific and non-explanatory as Romney.
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    Old 09-25-2012, 12:50 PM   #29929
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zajDmB1 View Post
    Again, there's a few different points that this touches on, which I think is why it's so hard for any remotely reasonable compromise to even be approached, let alone made. There's so many angles to look at, there will also be a group who disagrees with at least 1.

    But anyway, it's sort of the principal of things (which is obviously already where our ideologies will differ most likely). I don't think this idea of rich people are evil, raise their taxes, yada yada yada would be nearly as much of a thing if the economy was good or even fine. What's happened, though, is during a time of shittiness, more and more things keep popping up to make it very apparent our financial system kowtows to a relatively very small group of people, not to mention the al ighty ollar. OWS would not have ever existed if WS didn't make dumb bets, fuck the economy, get bailed out and give people record bonuses year after year. That's why there's issues; the seemingly free reign these people get. And sure there's exception, but like the Indian guy and Madoff, it's usually not until the crime has hit the hundreds of millions, if not billions.

    It's not anything, again for sane people, against capitalism or making money, it's about the obvious fixed system working against the majority of americans. The tax system is just an obvious target. I really think it's less about stealing from the rich and giving to the poor and more about either 'give us the free passes those guys get' or 'they fucked this up and/or benefitted from it, make them fix it.' And if even the idea of wiping out a bunch of debt, or getting our credit rating back up, or whatever would be beneficial since most shit is all speculation anyway, raised taxes might be an easy solution, at least short-term.
    Okay, I can agree with some of this. I think everyone thought the bailouts were total BS. However, I would stop short of calling this a free pass. Here's a somewhat recent article outlining what AIG has paid back, what the government owns, etc...

    It's not like these companies necessarily received free money. Paying out the bonuses was infuriating, no way around that.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/03/mark...ings/index.htm
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    Old 09-25-2012, 04:02 PM   #29930
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    Okay, I can agree with some of this. I think everyone thought the bailouts were total BS. However, I would stop short of calling this a free pass. Here's a somewhat recent article outlining what AIG has paid back, what the government owns, etc...

    It's not like these companies necessarily received free money. Paying out the bonuses was infuriating, no way around that.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/03/mark...ings/index.htm
    Well, yea it wasn't a total free pass, and obviously some banks failed, so you're right. But the idea is still there that it seems rich people need to be really fucking dumb to ever not be rich in the first place PLUS the gov't continues to actively find ways, or look the other way, to make people who already have money, more money, while not doing the same for most of America.

    I'm even 100% convinced insider trading and all sorts of "self-regulation" infractions happen all the time, the fed just only gets involved when it's massive and good PR. Like, there is no doubt in my mind insider trading happens every day, just to smaller amounts. I guarantee there's ways some guy is like, man I need an extra $50K today, and calls up a buddy to pull some strings for something in return. What's wrong about is they bet with our money, and we see very little return, except maybe lower interest rates sometimes.
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    Old 09-27-2012, 09:27 AM   #29931
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Now that it is established that the Obama administration lied about the assassination of the ambassador being because of a film no one ever saw, you have to wonder if that will hurt Obama in the polls?
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    Old 09-27-2012, 09:39 AM   #29932
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    At least he was on the view though right?
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    Old 09-27-2012, 09:48 AM   #29933
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Now that it is established that the Obama administration lied about the assassination of the ambassador being because of a film no one ever saw, you have to wonder if that will hurt Obama in the polls?
    on a scale of "things that matter"...this would be pretty low.
    so no, it won't hurt..and it shouldn't.
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    Old 09-27-2012, 11:05 AM   #29934
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AJF_41 View Post
    on a scale of "things that matter"...this would be pretty low.
    so no, it won't hurt..and it shouldn't.
    I keep forgetting that a certain percentage of the population don't care if a President lies.

    Except Bush. His lies count. Everyone else, not so much...
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    Old 09-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #29935
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Do you really not think this was some sort of catalyst? Even if the people didn't see it, someone (news channels in some areas) were just saying it happened. That's enough to spur on crazy people to do crazy shit.

    Or is there some news item I'm missing where this was going to happen that day anyway?
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    Old 09-27-2012, 10:06 PM   #29936
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    yes. the "movie" was made to be the catalyst by the administration because they can't openly blame terrorism. if they do that, than obama's entire foreign policy goes out the window. he killed bin laden, remember? al queda is running from the great usa! there's no war on terror, haven't you heard? obama went to cairo and brought peace between the muslims and the christians. even though there had only been 300 views on youtube of that so called movie when the riots broke out, they had to have been caused by that!
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    Old 09-28-2012, 03:07 AM   #29937
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    I believe we are just one well-reasoned argument away from convincing Obama haters to change their tune. Let's keep posting, liberal friends!!!
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    Old 09-28-2012, 08:39 AM   #29938
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmcox3333 View Post
    yes. the "movie" was made to be the catalyst by the administration because they can't openly blame terrorism. if they do that, than obama's entire foreign policy goes out the window. he killed bin laden, remember? al queda is running from the great usa! there's no war on terror, haven't you heard? obama went to cairo and brought peace between the muslims and the christians. even though there had only been 300 views on youtube of that so called movie when the riots broke out, they had to have been caused by that!
    Uh...ok...?
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    Old 09-29-2012, 11:50 AM   #29939
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Fucking Obama supporter just showed up at my door.
    I normally don't answer random door knocks b/c 99% of the time it's the Jehovah Witnesses, but since I didn't see their car on my street and saw a button and clipboard, I was curious to see who she was going door to door for.
    I would have talked, but I was more annoyed that it was nap time and my 2 dogs bark when someone comes to the door, so my child often wakes up.

    I politely told her I would not be voting for Obama and shut the door.
    Actually, I wish I would have played along, asked some questions and then been like "My goodness. I was so confused before, but now I know I should vote for Obama." Like, do people really get swayed by door to door salesmen and phone calls? If they do, I don't think I really want them voting in the first place. Gee, I had no idea who to vote for, but thanks to your 5 minute pitch, it's so obvious!
    mandy18 is offline  
    Old 09-29-2012, 01:09 PM   #29940
    zajDmB1
     
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    Re: ** Official Strongly Condemning Prez BHO, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2009), Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mandy18 View Post
    Fucking Obama supporter just showed up at my door.
    I normally don't answer random door knocks b/c 99% of the time it's the Jehovah Witnesses, but since I didn't see their car on my street and saw a button and clipboard, I was curious to see who she was going door to door for.
    I would have talked, but I was more annoyed that it was nap time and my 2 dogs bark when someone comes to the door, so my child often wakes up.

    I politely told her I would not be voting for Obama and shut the door.
    Actually, I wish I would have played along, asked some questions and then been like "My goodness. I was so confused before, but now I know I should vote for Obama." Like, do people really get swayed by door to door salesmen and phone calls? If they do, I don't think I really want them voting in the first place. Gee, I had no idea who to vote for, but thanks to your 5 minute pitch, it's so obvious!
    You'd be great at Sarcastaball.
    zajDmB1 is offline  
     

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