Live Trax Vol. 40 - 12.21.02 Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY

[TheLastPig]

Originally Posted by DMB1983

Makes sense that you're still on the boards for a band that hasn't existed in 8 years.

So youre arguing this band doesnt exist, but at the same time youre the one who was railing for a 2016 release.

[lockman21]

Originally Posted by RainDog1980

The band doesn't exist. Hasn't since Roi died.

It is Dave Matthews and Carter Beauford, formerly of the Dave Matthews Band, with supporting band, and special guest, Boyd Tinsley. Occasionally.

Or, more succinctly, the Dave Matthews Band Revue.

So do the RHCP exist? Does the E Street band not exist without Danny Federici?

Your logic is flawed. And awful.

[kelchlsm]

The whole "the band hasnt sounded the same since Leroi" is kind of comical to me. I mean I get it, dont get me wrong, I prefer just Boyd/ Leroi, and no horn section just like everyone else. I miss the old sound, and as a result have not gone to as many shows as I would have like to because of this current lineup.

That said, what I find funny is that if Leroi was still in the band today, im not so sure the sound would be that much different- and thats where a lot of people i think always give him way too much credit IMO. Im assuming it was his idea (or atleast a big part) in bringing in Rashawn to add the horn section in DMB. It began when he was still playing even. So youd still have the horn section and youd still have Tim Reynolds overpowering everyone.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by TheLastPig

So youre arguing this band doesnt exist, but at the same time youre the one who was railing for a 2016 release.

He's replying to the person that says the band doesn't exist.

[ToySoldier#34]

Thinking DMB is just Dave and Carter now is hilarious

[ToySoldier#34]

Originally Posted by TheLastPig

Yeah alot of people just know Crash and Ants and make a bunch of assumptions about what the band is without listening to anything else. I always bite my tongue when people talk shit about them because I know they are just talking out of their ass. Nearly every knock against DMB is a generic, incorrect one.

Most people I know think DMB is elevator music, can't really blame them considering that is the impression management has given. They have no idea there are songs ranging from I'll Back You Up to What You Are.

[crashintonickdm]

Originally Posted by kelchlsm

The whole "the band hasnt sounded the same since Leroi" is kind of comical to me. I mean I get it, dont get me wrong, I prefer just Boyd/ Leroi, and no horn section just like everyone else. I miss the old sound, and as a result have not gone to as many shows as I would have like to because of this current lineup.

That said, what I find funny is that if Leroi was still in the band today, im not so sure the sound would be that much different- and thats where a lot of people i think always give him way too much credit IMO. Im assuming it was his idea (or atleast a big part) in bringing in Rashawn to add the horn section in DMB. It began when he was still playing even. So youd still have the horn section and youd still have Tim Reynolds overpowering everyone.

Whys it comical? It's absolutely fact.

Whether it's good or not is matter of opinion

[kelchlsm]

Originally Posted by crashintonickdm

Whys it comical? It's absolutely fact.

Whether it's good or not is matter of opinion

Not sure you understand why i find it funny.

My post is full of assumptions and opinions and I state that.

I think the band in 2016 would sound the same with Leroi in it as they do today without him- this is what I find funny- and i think many people on these boards act like it wouldnt.

There would be a horn section and Tim Reynolds, and no Boyd.

Again that is all an assumption- but based on the fact the horn section started with Leroi, im assuming Leroi had an integral part of adding Rashawn to the band, who everyone hates.

[ryguy637]

Originally Posted by crashintonickdm

Whys it comical? It's absolutely fact.

Whether it's good or not is matter of opinion

Nick is absolutely correct.

They don't sound the same - fact

They don't sound as good - opinion.

[ryguy637]

Thus DVD is awesome. Can't say enough about how good this release is

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by kelchlsm

The whole "the band hasnt sounded the same since Leroi" is kind of comical to me. I mean I get it, dont get me wrong, I prefer just Boyd/ Leroi, and no horn section just like everyone else. I miss the old sound, and as a result have not gone to as many shows as I would have like to because of this current lineup.

That said, what I find funny is that if Leroi was still in the band today, im not so sure the sound would be that much different- and thats where a lot of people i think always give him way too much credit IMO. Im assuming it was his idea (or atleast a big part) in bringing in Rashawn to add the horn section in DMB. It began when he was still playing even. So youd still have the horn section and youd still have Tim Reynolds overpowering everyone.

I disagree. Now, before I begin, note that I am still a huge fan, still go to shows, still buy releases and still love the new material. But yes, I miss the days that the band played with dynamics, weren't so in your face, you could actually hear Boyd, and I do not like Rashawn and never did. With that said, the fact of the matter is that Roi is dead and he's not coming back, so we'll never know how the band would have continued to progress had Roi lived. However, I think most of us tend to base these kind of arguments on history, and what we heard from the band while Roi was still alive. We had two full tours with a horn section that included Roi, and we had 17 shows with Tim Reynolds and Roi together in 2008. Now, go and listen to Live Trax 13 and tell me that doesn't sound like the DMB we all knew and loved. The few shows played in May 2008, and the remaining shows played in June 2008, make me lean towards the idea that the band would have remained dynamic and have less of a hard rock sound. While the energy picked up in the songs given the addition of Rashawn, and eventually Tim, they still kept a lot of qualities that many hardcore fans consider to be what makes them sound like DMB. My inclination is to believe that was because Leroi Moore was still in the band.

It's my opinion that had Roi not died things would have stayed a little more dynamic and less loud, fast and intense. It's also my opinion that because Roi died, and now the band had a new sax player, had just added Tim back and Rashawn was still relatively new that they needed to reinvigorate themselves and the sound of the music they were playing. They needed to spark new life into the music so they could move past the death of their great friend. I believe that new excitement and renewed love for each other and the band led them to a more intense sound. I think it also helped them to get past Roi's death and not dwell on the past.

[lockman21]

Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34

Most people I know think DMB is elevator music, can't really blame them considering that is the impression management has given. They have no idea there are songs ranging from I'll Back You Up to What You Are.

I mean, there are a lot of "boring" songs that were picked as singles.

Crash, Space Between, Grace is Gone, Satellite, Where Are You Going, You and Me, Mercy, Dreamgirl...

[hailtopitt]

whoever thinks Crash is a boring song has never heard it live

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by kelchlsm

Not sure you understand why i find it funny.

My post is full of assumptions and opinions and I state that.

I think the band in 2016 would sound the same with Leroi in it as they do today without him- this is what I find funny- and i think many people on these boards act like it wouldnt.

There would be a horn section and Tim Reynolds, and no Boyd.

Again that is all an assumption- but based on the fact the horn section started with Leroi, im assuming Leroi had an integral part of adding Rashawn to the band, who everyone hates.

For all we know the Boyd factor may never have been an issue had Roi lived. There's been speculation that he spiraled downhill after Roi's death. Also, now that they have a harder edge he seems less inclined to be a standout player. You may also notice the interweaving of violin and sax is not something that happens anymore. I believe that to be because Boyd just doesn't play along with Jeff and Rashawn as he did with Roi. Boyd and Roi had a special blend that tied both sides of the stage together which no longer exists. In my opinion Jeff and Rashawn work together and do their own thing, whereas Boyd and Roi played together and off of each other. Now Jeff and Rashawn have each other to do that which, in turn, creates a totally different sound and dynamic. With that no longer taking place, and the horn section seemingly in their own world, so to speak, what use is Boyd in the mix anymore? So he pops in when he needs to solo, hits some signature lines, takes a few puffs, and then goes back to Narnia and plays with Crystal Garden.

All opinions and speculation, but I try to base these things off of actual history, the changes I've seen since 2008 and a little bit of logic. As opposed to just saying "this is how they sound now, so this is how they would have sounded either way". I'm inclined to say they would not sound the way they do now had Roi lived.

[ToySoldier#34]

Originally Posted by lockman21

I mean, there are a lot of "boring" songs that were picked as singles.

Crash, Space Between, Grace is Gone, Satellite, Where Are You Going, You and Me, Mercy, Dreamgirl...

You're making my point

[kelchlsm]

Originally Posted by KevinTH

For all we know the Boyd factor may never have been an issue had Roi lived. There's been speculation that he spiraled downhill after Roi's death. Also, now that they have a harder edge he seems less inclined to be a standout player. You may also notice the interweaving of violin and sax is not something that happens anymore. I believe that to be because Boyd just doesn't play along with Jeff and Rashawn as he did with Roi. Boyd and Roi had a special blend that tied both sides of the stage together which no longer exists. In my opinion Jeff and Rashawn work together and do their own thing, whereas Boyd and Roi played together and off of each other. Now Jeff and Rashawn have each other to do that which, in turn, creates a totally different sound and dynamic. With that no longer taking place, and the horn section seemingly in their own world, so to speak, what use is Boyd in the mix anymore? So he pops in when he needs to solo, hits some signature lines, takes a few puffs, and then goes back to Narnia and plays with Crystal Garden.

All opinions and speculation, but I try to base these things off of actual history, the changes I've seen since 2008 and a little bit of logic. As opposed to just saying "this is how they sound now, so this is how they would have sounded either way". I'm inclined to say they would not sound the way they do now had Roi lived.

I like this input and was a good read, its all just speculation

But i attribute Boyd's decline more on his arthritis, so dont think much would have mattered in that department, and it shows in his play that he physically cant do what he used to be able to do anymore

I agree that in early 08 with Tim and Rashawn, it sounded great- but i think they still wouldve continued to evolve the horn section to where it is today. It seemed as though that is exactly where the band was and did end up heading, regardless of Roi.
Maybe less in your face, with the way Jeff Coffin's style develops it compared to Roi, but the sound would be still very similar.


Who knows though.

Back to the topic of this release being fantastic.

[lockman21]

Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34

You're making my point

I know I am. I'm agreeing with you?

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by kelchlsm

I like this input and was a good read, its all just speculation

But i attribute Boyd's decline more on his arthritis, so dont think much would have mattered in that department, and it shows in his play that he physically cant do what he used to be able to do anymore

I agree that in early 08 with Tim and Rashawn, it sounded great- but i think they still wouldve continued to evolve the horn section to where it is today. It seemed as though that is exactly where the band was and did end up heading, regardless of Roi.
Maybe less in your face, with the way Jeff Coffin's style develops it compared to Roi, but the sound would be still very similar.


Who knows though.

Back to the topic of this release being fantastic.

I see what you're saying. I think Boyd's issues are a mix of things. The arthritis or tendinitis (whatever it is), definitely is a factor, if it's really what's happening with him. But if you've ever met the guy or seen some of his videos his behavior is very bizarre. I lean more towards a combination of tendinitis, a bizarre mental state (possibly some drug use) and tension in the band. ALL SPECULATION The lack of chemistry he has shown with the rest of the band, and likewise, over the course of the last few years has been pretty evident on stage and in videos. Of course, we're just spectators in very small portions of these people's lives, but when you watch older videos of interviews and live performances it's not hard to notice the change.

as for the horn section...who knows what would have happened there. If you listen back, Roi's playing seemed a bit less inspired around roughly 2005. I remember hearing some versions of songs back then thinking, "damn Roi, you sound so bored". There were also rumors of his health being poor around 2005/06/07. I always got the impression that something was up with Roi personally so Rashawn was brought in to give a bit of a boost. I know that there was tension in the band at that time period as well. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Roi brought in Rashawn (or maybe someone suggested it) to reinvigorate his playing and become a little more inspired while also dealing with personal health issues. I don't know what happened, but in 08 Leroi Moore came back to life and was playing better than I had heard him play in years, and I know many others would agree with that. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they decided Rashawn was no longer necessary and returned to form, while also hanging on to Tim. But unfortunately we lost Roi and we'll never know what could have been.

Anyway...now that that's out of my system haha.

It's a real joy to watch this blu-ray and listen to the band during one of their peak years. This release is fantastic.

[RainDog1980]

Originally Posted by DMB1983

Makes sense that you're still on the boards for a band that hasn't existed in 8 years.

Yes, it does, as I am a Dave Matthews fan.

[RainDog1980]

Originally Posted by lockman21

So do the RHCP exist? Does the E Street band not exist without Danny Federici?

Your logic is flawed. And awful.

Did you read any of my following statements? Yes, clearly, the band still exists.

[snake911]

Originally Posted by KevinTH

I see what you're saying. I think Boyd's issues are a mix of things. The arthritis or tendinitis (whatever it is), definitely is a factor, if it's really what's happening with him. But if you've ever met the guy or seen some of his videos his behavior is very bizarre. I lean more towards a combination of tendinitis, a bizarre mental state (possibly some drug use) and tension in the band. ALL SPECULATION The lack of chemistry he has shown with the rest of the band, and likewise, over the course of the last few years has been pretty evident on stage and in videos. Of course, we're just spectators in very small portions of these people's lives, but when you watch older videos of interviews and live performances it's not hard to notice the change.

as for the horn section...who knows what would have happened there. If you listen back, Roi's playing seemed a bit less inspired around roughly 2005. I remember hearing some versions of songs back then thinking, "damn Roi, you sound so bored". There were also rumors of his health being poor around 2005/06/07. I always got the impression that something was up with Roi personally so Rashawn was brought in to give a bit of a boost. I know that there was tension in the band at that time period as well. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Roi brought in Rashawn (or maybe someone suggested it) to reinvigorate his playing and become a little more inspired while also dealing with personal health issues. I don't know what happened, but in 08 Leroi Moore came back to life and was playing better than I had heard him play in years, and I know many others would agree with that. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they decided Rashawn was no longer necessary and returned to form, while also hanging on to Tim. But unfortunately we lost Roi and we'll never know what could have been.

Anyway...now that that's out of my system haha.

It's a real joy to watch this blu-ray and listen to the band during one of their peak years. This release is fantastic.

Many of the changes that are pretty unanimously hated around here has started before Roi was injured/died such as, non-dynamic Grey Street, the abysmal "note" they play during the OSW intro, electric guitar on every frickin song, etc... Obviously you can never predict what would have been had Roi not died, but the sound was already changing from the "glory days" sound. And thats probably a good thing, I dont think anybody wants to relive 2007 again. Whatever happened in the offseason between 07 and 08 they were back with a new energy, and while early 08 was the best they had sounded in a long time, it was still different from the old days, much denser arrangements, faster tempos. I dont think for a second that Rashawn and Tim came in and told the other band members how DMB was going to sound. They were brought in because they fit with the direction that the rest of the band wanted to go (or the direction whoever makes the decisions, none of us actually knows who that is i.e. band is taking 2018 off from touring, clearly dave and tim didnt want a break they are doing tons of shows) and without that change we very well might not have DMB today.. the 05-07 progression was not a band with a bright future.

[hailtopitt]

Originally Posted by snake911

(or the direction whoever makes the decisions, none of us actually knows who that is.

yes, we do know who that it is. it's Dave. Dave makes the decisions.

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by snake911

Many of the changes that are pretty unanimously hated around here has started before Roi was injured/died such as, non-dynamic Grey Street, the abysmal "note" they play during the OSW intro, electric guitar on every frickin song, etc... Obviously you can never predict what would have been had Roi not died, but the sound was already changing from the "glory days" sound. And thats probably a good thing, I dont think anybody wants to relive 2007 again. Whatever happened in the offseason between 07 and 08 they were back with a new energy, and while early 08 was the best they had sounded in a long time, it was still different from the old days, much denser arrangements, faster tempos. I dont think for a second that Rashawn and Tim came in and told the other band members how DMB was going to sound. They were brought in because they fit with the direction that the rest of the band wanted to go (or the direction whoever makes the decisions, none of us actually knows who that is i.e. band is taking 2018 off from touring, clearly dave and tim didnt want a break they are doing tons of shows) and without that change we very well might not have DMB today.. the 05-07 progression was not a band with a bright future.

I get your point, but I completely disagree about the bold above. That just isn't true from my perspective. Grey Street started becoming less dynamic once Jeff took over (even though I think 7/5/08 is one of the best Grey Streets of all time), and then it took a quick hard fall off a cliff and died in 2009. The One Sweet World note doesn't really bother me too much, but that also didn't change until after Roi passed. I just listened to a version from 2008 and it sounds just like it did. I see your other points though and don't completely disagree with you.

[Floyd47]

Originally Posted by KevinTH

I get your point, but I completely disagree about the bold above. That just isn't true from my perspective. Grey Street started becoming less dynamic once Jeff took over (even though I think 7/5/08 is one of the best Grey Streets of all time), and then it took a quick hard fall off a cliff and died in 2009. The One Sweet World note doesn't really bother me too much, but that also didn't change until after Roi passed. I just listened to a version from 2008 and it sounds just like it did. I see your other points though and don't completely disagree with you.

What is this referring to? I guess I'm not as up on my OSW knowledge as I should be....

[crashintonickdm]

One sweet worlds main riff on horns is what's being discussed

It is in short horrendous

[RainDog1980]

Originally Posted by snake911

Many of the changes that are pretty unanimously hated around here has started before Roi was injured/died such as, non-dynamic Grey Street, the abysmal "note" they play during the OSW intro, electric guitar on every frickin song, etc... Obviously you can never predict what would have been had Roi not died, but the sound was already changing from the "glory days" sound. And thats probably a good thing, I dont think anybody wants to relive 2007 again. Whatever happened in the offseason between 07 and 08 they were back with a new energy, and while early 08 was the best they had sounded in a long time, it was still different from the old days, much denser arrangements, faster tempos. I dont think for a second that Rashawn and Tim came in and told the other band members how DMB was going to sound. They were brought in because they fit with the direction that the rest of the band wanted to go (or the direction whoever makes the decisions, none of us actually knows who that is i.e. band is taking 2018 off from touring, clearly dave and tim didnt want a break they are doing tons of shows) and without that change we very well might not have DMB today.. the 05-07 progression was not a band with a bright future.

I agree with the bolded. Grey Street really started to stagnate when Roi and Rashawn changed the outro up for a set horn arrangement.

Funny thing about 2007, some songs were just as big of a mess sonically as they are now. When Butch was bad, he was bad. And Rashawn was just screeching.

I don't think these changes were the result of bringing new members in, just like I don't think Butch was responsible for the band's sound in '05-'07. It comes down to Dave. As Roi said, he had to lead the band. It seems that is the case now.

[YouNeverKnow25]

my own personal opinion is that they've never sounded worse than 07

[snake911]

Originally Posted by hailtopitt

yes, we do know who that it is. it's Dave. Dave makes the decisions.

I'm guessing that there is much less unilateral decision making than that, for instance "band is taking a break from touring in 2018", but Dave isn't. So, either one of more of the others wanted a year off, or if its unilateral Dave he told the rest of them "Im sick of playing with the band, its me and tim in 2018 and the rest of you can pound rocks". To me the second scenario sounds unlikely. Dave clearly has the bulk of the production in terms of songwriting, and scrapping and reworking albums, I just don't think any of us knows how decisions in the band actually get made.

[crashintonickdm]

One sweet world didn't turn for the worse til 7/1/08.

[hailtopitt]

Originally Posted by snake911

I'm guessing that there is much less unilateral decision making than that, for instance "band is taking a break from touring in 2018", but Dave isn't. So, either one of more of the others wanted a year off, or if its unilateral Dave he told the rest of them "Im sick of playing with the band, its me and tim in 2018 and the rest of you can pound rocks". To me the second scenario sounds unlikely. Dave clearly has the bulk of the production in terms of songwriting, and scrapping and reworking albums, I just don't think any of us knows how decisions in the band actually get made.

Stefan has made it pretty clear that Dave calls the shots too

it's very obvious that Dave makes the decisions