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Old 02-26-2014, 02:12 PM   #61
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Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

It doesnt fucking help future negotiations
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  • Old 02-26-2014, 02:16 PM   #62
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    John (St. Louis)

    Pujols' future is not all about money, you're absolutely wrong about that . . . He isn't a greedy person
    Klaw (1:15 PM)

    Right. That's why, after the Cardinals overpaid him by a factor of 2.5 for his last pre-arbitration year, he cut them absolutely no discount on the long-term deal, and made a stink about how they had to give him that deal or he'd go year-to-year and leave as a free agent. (I'm not criticizing that stance. Just pointing out that he, like just about every other human being in history, has an inherently greedy streak.)
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:45 PM   #63
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    I don't think some people in here are good at managing money or budgets or people. If an extra hundred thousands here or there, or maybe even a few million could potentially help with future negotiations (even if you buy the premise it is not happened one time before), then its a smart deal, since a million dollars is pennies to an MLB club. The Angels are paying an extra 500k this year to Trout, from a payroll of about 140,000 million. That extra 500k is 0.36% of their payroll budget (just for MBL players). Even if the extra 500k does no good in future negotiations, who cares about an extra 0.36% of your budget. The Angels are doing this right - giving him some extra, and hoping to buy out 2-4 prime free agency years.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:47 PM   #64
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    And to be fair, the Pujols situation was 3 years difference and about 70 million difference in a contract. Of course a player is going to move with that much extra scratch.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:49 PM   #65
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lee3691 View Post
    I don't think some people in here are good at managing money or budgets or people. If an extra hundred thousands here or there, or maybe even a few million could potentially help with future negotiations (even if you buy the premise it is not happened one time before), then its a smart deal, since a million dollars is pennies to an MLB club. The Angels are paying an extra 500k this year to Trout, from a payroll of about 140,000 million. That extra 500k is 0.36% of their payroll budget (just for MBL players). Even if the extra 500k does no good in future negotiations, who cares about an extra 0.36% of your budget. The Angels are doing this right - giving him some extra, and hoping to buy out 2-4 prime free agency years.
    Prove to me it helps get a discount. There is no proof.

    I find the bold to be laughable. You say we are bad at budgeting then just throw away a couple hundred thousand for no reason.

    When comcast calls for your cable bill and they say it is 120 do you pay them 180 Lee and then hope they will reduce it to 90 bucks next year?
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:51 PM   #66
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gocubsgo3822 View Post
    Prove to me it helps get a discount. There is no proof.

    I find the bold to be laughable. You say we are bad at budgeting then just throw away a couple hundred thousand for no reason.

    When comcast calls for your cable bill and they say it is 120 do you pay them 180 Lee and then hope they will reduce it to 90 bucks next year?
    When I have allocated bonus money to people I manage - more than what was required, despite putting a bit of strain on other parts of my budget - it was money well spent, since it provided higher morale. I'll use an analogy that is actually a similar situation and makes sense versus your ridiculous one.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:53 PM   #67
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    BTW, I don't think giving the extra 500k to Trout is about getting a discount at all - but rather letting him know that he is wanted. One can use David Ortiz as an example of how taking care of a player can lead to a discount though, if you want to go there.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 02:53 PM   #68
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    My ridiclous one is the one that matterd. Name a player that it has helped with Lee.

    I will patiently wait for one
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    Old 02-26-2014, 03:04 PM   #69
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gocubsgo3822 View Post
    My ridiclous one is the one that matterd. Name a player that it has helped with Lee.

    I will patiently wait for one
    You're under the impression that I think giving the extra 500k (or 0.36% of the player payroll budget) is because of a possible future discount, when I have already stated the most important thing has to do with the employee morale. The possibility of a future discount - even if it has never happened before - is only a possible benefit that may or may not be beneficial. People like to work for employers that are not about the dollar with every decision the employer makes. A great example of this is when Mark Cuban bought the Dallas Mavs, which was a shithole of a franchise, and started spending money (money he didnt have to spend) to upgrade locker rooms, planes, etc. Google periodically has given every employee 10% raises out of the blue - not because they have to, but because it inspires employees to be better.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 03:09 PM   #70
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Also, Evan Longoria took a discounted contract extension in 2012 - I wonder if that had anything to do with getting a multi year contract at such a young age.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 03:21 PM   #71
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lee3691 View Post
    You're under the impression that I think giving the extra 500k (or 0.36% of the player payroll budget) is because of a possible future discount, when I have already stated the most important thing has to do with the employee morale. The possibility of a future discount - even if it has never happened before - is only a possible benefit that may or may not be beneficial. People like to work for employers that are not about the dollar with every decision the employer makes. A great example of this is when Mark Cuban bought the Dallas Mavs, which was a shithole of a franchise, and started spending money (money he didnt have to spend) to upgrade locker rooms, planes, etc. Google periodically has given every employee 10% raises out of the blue - not because they have to, but because it inspires employees to be better.
    mark cuban invested in the locker room since he wanted to lure players to come to a historically awful franchise. Google gives raises because they fight the major tech companies for the best.

    baseball is different. Owners have 3 years of cheap labor. They have to get as much value out of that labor as possible before it skyrockets. Throwing him an extra 500K is a waste of resources. You know how many latin american prosepcts can be signed for that . It is 100% a zero sum game.

    Also if you are going to argue that they should do this to help with future deals, why didnt they do it the year before? Did thy not think it would matter then? Same owner, same GM

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    Also, Evan Longoria took a discounted contract extension in 2012 - I wonder if that had anything to do with getting a multi year contract at such a young age.
    Nothing to do with it at all. They got him on a great contract that was small to begin with. Then got him on a HUGE contract that was still underpaid. His agent is an idiot. Also cant use him as an example since he never went to arbritration to begin with.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 03:29 PM   #72
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
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    It doesnt fucking help future negotiations
    Chill out. It can potentially help. It does not hurt them one bit to do this.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 03:32 PM   #73
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Sure it does, I have 550K reasons why it hurts them.

    And it cant potentially help. Unless you submit evidence other than "it seems like a good idea"
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    Old 02-26-2014, 04:15 PM   #74
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    well gocubs, obviously that isn't a point that can definitively be proven, right now, by the very nature of the argument itself. It's something that involves a potential future. it's like the same thing as trying to prove a negative. And trying to argue that the 500 grand is some major blow to the organization is just absurd, but as you're little more than a troll as usual I wouldn't really expect much more from you.
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    Old 02-26-2014, 04:31 PM   #75
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Dodgers!!!!
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    Old 02-26-2014, 06:21 PM   #76
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

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    Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 View Post
    Just as a point of fact, Ryan Howard won't be "out of the Phillies' hair" until he's 37.

    Again, there is zero evidence that suggests even in the slightest that giving an increase now helps later. Not one shred. It's kind of ridiculous to think that these players and their agents are so petty that they would take 400K from 2014 as such a slight as to not even listen to deals for 2018 and beyond with three more zeroes on the end of them. There is no evidence of that level of pettiness anywhere in the history of sports--money from years past is a whisper compared to the roar of money from years to come.

    The offer the Angels give him whenever they decide to do it is not going to have anything to do with Mike Trout's 2014 salary as it stands today, and neither will his acceptance or denial of it.
    i know this. but if they did what i said, his contract ends last year. maybe they re-sign him, but he wont make another $75mm from now til 37
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    Old 02-26-2014, 06:48 PM   #77
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gocubsgo3822 View Post
    mark cuban invested in the locker room since he wanted to lure players to come to a historically awful franchise. Google gives raises because they fight the major tech companies for the best.
    Owners and managers invest in their companies - sports franchises and otherwise - to make their businesses better. A great example of what that extra 500k this year buys is goodwill with your customers, who are going to be more willing to go to games and buy shit when they their team treating the star player with respect.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gocubsgo3822 View Post
    baseball is different. Owners have 3 years of cheap labor. They have to get as much value out of that labor as possible before it skyrockets. Throwing him an extra 500K is a waste of resources. You know how many latin american prosepcts can be signed for that . It is 100% a zero sum game.
    You are assuming that the extra 500k would be used for something. Most likely it would just be sitting in Moreno's bank account. The best companies know that treating employees better then their competition is a great long term business move.

    Quote:
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    Also if you are going to argue that they should do this to help with future deals, why didnt they do it the year before? Did thy not think it would matter then? Same owner, same GM
    Maybe they wanted to see if he was a one hit wonder? Irrelevant question. The whole point of this - besides treating employees really well - is to buy out some of their prime free agency years. Buying out those years - even if you pay market value - is a smart move, because that means you are less likely to have to overpay at the end of the contract, when the player is in decline.


    Quote:
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    Nothing to do with it at all. They got him on a great contract that was small to begin with. Then got him on a HUGE contract that was still underpaid. His agent is an idiot. Also cant use him as an example since he never went to arbritration to begin with.
    Um, Trout has never gone to arbitration, so even though that it is irrelevant, it shows how similar the cases are. Tampa Bay gave him a huge contract when he was unproven and bought out some prime free agency years....and then a few years later he agrees to an extension that was well under market value. That's exactly the situation you asked for - a player who gave his team a discount when they signed him to an earlier contract that bought out free agency years, so at least we dont you have to hear the argument that it has never happened before.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 06:19 AM   #78
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gocubsgo3822 View Post
    Sure it does, I have 550K reasons why it hurts them.

    And it cant potentially help. Unless you submit evidence other than "it seems like a good idea"
    gocubs thinks they care about 550k
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    Old 02-27-2014, 06:32 AM   #79
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Evan Longoria absolutely did not sign a below market deal. He signed a six year guaranteed 100 million dollar extension for seasons that were five years in the future, coming off of two seasons where he had played a total of 200 games! Good lord.

    Last edited by YouNeverKnow25; 02-27-2014 at 06:33 AM.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 06:32 AM   #80
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lee3691 View Post

    You are assuming that the extra 500k would be used for something. Most likely it would just be sitting in Moreno's bank account. The best companies know that treating employees better then their competition is a great long term business move.



    of course it doesnt guarantee a discount later...but its the employer telling the employee "we're invested in you, we believe in you 100%, we're going to get something worked out"

    Me personally- if my company gives me the absolute minimum raise despite incredible performance, I'll remember that. It doesn't mean I won't sign on long term later, but I'll def be looking. If they offer me a 50% raise (even if I know I deserve more), and I believe in what they are doing, I'll take it as a good faith raise with the understanding that something will be worked out.

    Thats all it is. This isn't football, there's no salary cap...if that extra $ makes Trout a little happier, its absolutely worth every penny
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    Old 02-27-2014, 07:49 AM   #81
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 View Post
    Evan Longoria absolutely did not sign a below market deal. He signed a six year guaranteed 100 million dollar extension for seasons that were five years in the future, coming off of two seasons where he had played a total of 200 games! Good lord.
    You and I must have different definitions of a below market deal. He'd probably get 150 million for those 6 years, which is 50 million more than what he signed for. Maybe we can share definitions and compare?
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    Old 02-27-2014, 07:52 AM   #82
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Neither you nor I have any idea how much he'd get for those years because we haven't played the 2014 season yet and that deal doesn't kick in until 2017, and the deal was signed over a year ago.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 07:56 AM   #83
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
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    Neither you nor I have any idea how much he'd get for those years because we haven't played the 2014 season yet and that deal doesn't kick in until 2017, and the deal was signed over a year ago.
    Well, I guess we could play the "either you nor I have any idea how much he'd get for those years because we haven't played the 2014 season yet" for any of these guys - we're all speculating. The point is that you and GoCubs said no player has ever taken a discount with his current team after signing a contract that buys our some free agency years and gives them a little bit more money at earlier in the contract, and Evan Longoria proves that wrong, so we don't have to hear that argument any more.

    Question - have you ever manged people, including their salaries, bonuses, raises and budgets? Do you not understand that in most cases giving more $$ or benefits creates a happier work force, which means a more productive workforce?
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:03 AM   #84
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    But Evan Longoria does not prove that wrong, because Evan Longoria didn't take a discount. 100 million dollars in 2012 for 2017-2023 is in no way, shape, or form taking a discount. It's not even close to taking a discount. To even suggest that it's taking a discount is laughable.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:06 AM   #85
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    And Lee as great as I'm sure your managerial skills are, I bet dollars to donuts your employees are not working under a collective bargaining agreement. Your experience means nothing. You are like the guy who is saying that he hit .300 in high school, so he could probably hit .250 in MLB.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:09 AM   #86
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 View Post
    But Evan Longoria does not prove that wrong, because Evan Longoria didn't take a discount. 100 million dollars in 2012 for 2017-2023 is in no way, shape, or form taking a discount. It's not even close to taking a discount. To even suggest that it's taking a discount is laughable.
    How do you know this?
    I'm not a baseball historian, but a top 5 player at his position at age 31 is going to get offered more than 6 years, 100 million - especially in 2017. If he was a free agent this year, he'd be offered a lot more money. It's a great example of how giving a player some extra money earlier can really pay off in the long run, disproving your point.

    And even so, I dont think the point of giving Trout an extra 500k is to get a future discount. It's about treating him correctly, and motivating him to give up some free agency years in his prime.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:11 AM   #87
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 View Post
    And Lee as great as I'm sure your managerial skills are, I bet dollars to donuts your employees are not working under a collective bargaining agreement. Your experience means nothing. You are like the guy who is saying that he hit .300 in high school, so he could probably hit .250 in MLB.
    That's a Gocubs analogy - it makes no sense. Treating people well, rewarding them for good deeds is something that can benefit all businesses, all industries, collective bargaining agreement or not.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:12 AM   #88
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
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    How do you know this?
    I'm not a baseball historian, but a top 5 player at his position at age 31 is going to get offered more than 6 years, 100 million - especially in 2017. If he was a free agent this year, he'd be offered a lot more money. It's a great example of how giving a player some extra money earlier can really pay off in the long run, disproving your point.

    And even so, I dont think the point of giving Trout an extra 500k is to get a future discount. It's about treating him correctly, and motivating him to give up some free agency years in his prime.
    But he's NOT A FREE AGENT THIS YEAR. That's the whole point! He was 5 years away from free agency! That's literally the entire reason why it's not a discount.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:16 AM   #89
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lee3691 View Post
    How do you know this?
    I'm not a baseball historian, but a top 5 player at his position at age 31 is going to get offered more than 6 years, 100 million - especially in 2017. If he was a free agent this year, he'd be offered a lot more money. It's a great example of how giving a player some extra money earlier can really pay off in the long run, disproving your point.
    And if Longoria blows out a knee this year and never plays a single inning during that extension, how much of a discount is it?

    edit: and ^^^^, what YNK said.
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    Old 02-27-2014, 08:28 AM   #90
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    Re: The 2014 Major League Baseball Season

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 View Post
    But he's NOT A FREE AGENT THIS YEAR. That's the whole point! He was 5 years away from free agency! That's literally the entire reason why it's not a discount.
    I am going to do this slowly.

    First, remember that this discussion started with Mike Trout, who is also NOT A FREE AGENT THIS YEAR. Trout is 4 years away from free agency! That's literally the entire reason why it's a similar discussion.

    The point you and gocubs tried to make was giving him an extra 500k this year would provide no financial benefit to the team in the future, and you said it had never happened before. Besides my point being is that getting a salary discount wasn't a primary factor in the motivation for the Angels to give him the extra 500k, I brought up a player who has given his team a discount after getting some extra money earlier, in Evan Longoria. No while you can say it wasn't a discount (which I think is absurd, considering contracts that are handed out), I'm not sure what your point is, if all you are going to do is say someone IS NOT A FREE AGENT. None of these guys who sign contracts that buy out their free agency years are FREE AGENTS. If they were FREE AGENTS, we would not be having a discussion about buying out years of FREE AGENCY before the player is a FREE AGENT.

    Since, we're going slowly, I'll show you why Longoria did give his team a discount. As you pointed out, he was 5 years away from free agency, and he accepted a 6 year extension worth about 100 million, avg approx 16.5 million per year - all years he would of been a free agent, in his prime. This offseason, Freddie Freeman, who has not been as a productive as Longoria at a position that is traditionally more productive than Longoria position, signed a contract worth 135 million over 8 years. However, 3 of those years would of been arbitration years, when he couldn't have been a free agent - those 3 years, he is being paid approx 25.5 million over 3 years. Hence, the free agency years of his contract (i.e. the years he could of been a free agent) are 5 years / 106.5 million, which is definitely higher than Longoria's contract for a player not as good.
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