Making a Murderer - Page 2 - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 01-05-2016, 11:29 AM   #31
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Re: Making a Murderer

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Originally Posted by TimHonks View Post
This is what I tend to think, but then I think there is no way he is smart enough to cover up all tracks of the murder.

Side note to a specific part of the doc. When Brendan was testifying and had an answer to, "What book did you get it from?", my jaw hit the floor. He can read but doesn't know what inconsistent means?
Sure, I can read but come across plenty words I don't know.
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  • Old 01-05-2016, 11:29 AM   #32
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    7 episodes in. didn't backread to avoid spoilers. see you later tonight
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:31 AM   #33
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TimHonks View Post
    This is what I tend to think, but then I think there is no way he is smart enough to cover up all tracks of the murder.

    Side note to a specific part of the doc. When Brendan was testifying and had an answer to, "What book did you get it from?", my jaw hit the floor. He can read but doesn't know what inconsistent means?
    but how many tracks are we sure there actually were? I don't think it's unreasonable that he kidnapped her, shot her, burned her, all in a very small overall area

    a lot of what he may need to cover up could easily have been made up by brendan
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:34 AM   #34
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    but how many tracks are we sure there actually were? I don't think it's unreasonable that he kidnapped her, shot her, burned her, all in a very small overall area

    a lot of what he may need to cover up could easily have been made up by brendan
    There was just so much junk everywhere in the house that you would think there would be SOME DNA evidence somewhere. I guess it could have been outside or something, who knows?

    He definitely could have done it, but I think we can agree that the argument on how he did it is very far fetched.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:34 AM   #35
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    but how many tracks are we sure there actually were? I don't think it's unreasonable that he kidnapped her, shot her, burned her, all in a very small overall area

    a lot of what he may need to cover up could easily have been made up by the investigators
    fixed your post
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:36 AM   #36
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    the key, the lack of blood/dna in the bedroom, and the blood in the car (but no fingerprints) is what's so shocking to me. And that the test tube containing Avery's blood was tampered with...
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:53 AM   #37
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    I don't think he killed her in the bedroom
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    Old 01-05-2016, 11:54 AM   #38
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    IF he did in fact kill her
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:12 PM   #39
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Would have been interesting to be in deliberations with the jury. Plenty of seeds of doubt sowed, IMO, even after reading the about the additional evidence that was omitted from the documentary. The lack of blood/dna, the stretch of time the investigators had the property to themselves, the cop calling in the plates of the Rav-4, the magically appearing key, the magically appearing tainted bullet, the tampered with blood vile packaging, the 'hacked' password/un-investigated alternated suspects, the forced confession, etc.

    Whether or not you believe in your gut he did it is a separate issue from reviewing the admissible evidence presented and deciding as a group that no reasonable doubt exists that the crime was committed by the defendant. From what little we know about the jury from the comments of the excused juror, it sounds as if several strong personalities had their minds made up in advance and were able to strong-arm the undecideds to their side, maybe merely for the sake of expediency.

    If you believe he did it, maybe that type of back door justice is acceptable in your eyes. But, if you're truly on the fence, it is appalling.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:20 PM   #40
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Maybe it's just me but I can't look at Len Kachinsky (Dasseys first "lawyer") and not think of Jerry Lundegaard.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:23 PM   #41
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    One Avery trial juror (not the excused juror featured in the show) has come forward stating he (or she) believes that Avery was framed:

    http://www.vulture.com/2016/01/makin...as-framed.html
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:24 PM   #42
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by M. Steng View Post
    Says the guy who just admitted five minutes ago to having no interest in watching the show . It's clear to anyone with two eyes and a brain who watched it that they were incredibly passionate about the case and showed empathy for Steven and the rest of the Avery family every step of the way. Hell, the shorter lawyer seemed on the verge of tears several times when discussing what he believed to be the injustice done to Steven and the family. Not sure what your agenda is, but I never mentioned they did it out of the kindness of their hearts for free.
    Agenda? I have the agenda?

    I don't want to watch the "doc" I don't want to watch someone create the least bit of sympathy for that guy.

    The best trial lawyers are able to gather sympathy for the most vile creatures on earth. Of course they were passionate - that is what they do.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by socopithy View Post
    Why do you say this? Personal emotions aside.

    Didn't they stick around beyond what he paid for and put in a lot of extra hours off the books?

    If they truly didn't care, they're excellent actors.
    Actors, lawyers - fine line. This was a pretty high profile case for these guys. Putting in extra hours for the added exposure I'm sure was worth it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbetc View Post
    He didn't have a choice. He had to get money somehow to represent himself. His original lawsuit was 36million. Not like the $260,000 was the plan.

    How do you know they didn't care for him? I don't care for my boss, the person who pays me, but I still do my job to the best of my ability. I'm sure more layers than not don't care for their clients.
    I guess I can not say for certain that they did not care for him, but its not like they were doing this case pro bono because they believed so truly in his innocence. He cashed out to get the best lawyers he could to try and be free.

    He was never going to get $36 million, just because you sue for an amount does not mean much. And no, he did not have to get money to defend himself, only if he wanted to get the best.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:26 PM   #43
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Would have been interesting to be in deliberations with the jury. Plenty of seeds of doubt sowed, IMO, even after reading the about the additional evidence that was omitted from the documentary. The lack of blood/dna, the stretch of time the investigators had the property to themselves, the cop calling in the plates of the Rav-4, the magically appearing key, the magically appearing tainted bullet, the tampered with blood vile packaging, the 'hacked' password/un-investigated alternated suspects, the forced confession, etc.

    Whether or not you believe in your gut he did it is a separate issue from reviewing the admissible evidence presented and deciding as a group that no reasonable doubt exists that the crime was committed by the defendant. From what little we know about the jury from the comments of the excused juror, it sounds as if several strong personalities had their minds made up in advance and were able to strong-arm the undecideds to their side, maybe merely for the sake of expediency.

    If you believe he did it, maybe that type of back door justice is acceptable in your eyes. But, if you're truly on the fence, it is appalling.
    Apparently another juror has come forward to the producers of the documentary saying he/she feared for their life if a not guilty verdict would have been reached. Of course that's all hearsay at this point. But when the dad of the Manitowoc County sheriff and the spouse of a Manitowoc county clerk is on the jury, it's not hard to see how one could be influenced.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:35 PM   #44
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Originally Posted by dmbetc View Post
    the key, the lack of blood/dna in the bedroom, and the blood in the car (but no fingerprints) is what's so shocking to me. And that the test tube containing Avery's blood was tampered with...
    This is the biggest thing for me. If Brendon's story was true, where did all the blood go?
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:37 PM   #45
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Originally Posted by Dramageek View Post
    One Avery trial juror (not the excused juror featured in the show) has come forward stating he (or she) believes that Avery was framed:

    http://www.vulture.com/2016/01/makin...as-framed.html
    Instead, the juror says a "compromise" was reached, with the jurors "ultimately trading votes in the jury room and explicitly discussing, 'If you vote guilty on this count, I will vote not guilty on this count.'" The directors say they have not been able to verify the source's claims, but that if Avery was offered a new trial, the juror would participate as a "source."

    Whoa, if true. That actually makes me sick to my stomach.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:39 PM   #46
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    The whole thing is completely fucked up regardless of which way you sway. So incredibly fucked up.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:40 PM   #47
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    The whole thing is completely fucked up regardless of which way you sway. So incredibly fucked up.
    This.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:42 PM   #48
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Originally Posted by sbuzzz View Post
    I guess I can not say for certain that they did not care for him, but its not like they were doing this case pro bono because they believed so truly in his innocence. He cashed out to get the best lawyers he could to try and be free.

    He was never going to get $36 million, just because you sue for an amount does not mean much. And no, he did not have to get money to defend himself, only if he wanted to get the best.
    Why would someone do this pro bono if they can get money? Just because the lawyers got paid doesn't mean they didn't like the guy.

    I would want the best lawyer to defend me if I were up for murder as well! Your post seems like you're skeptical of him because he paid for top lawyers.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:47 PM   #49
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    Re: Making a Murderer

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    Why would someone do this pro bono if they can get money? Just because the lawyers got paid doesn't mean they didn't like the guy.

    I would want the best lawyer to defend me if I were up for murder as well! Your post seems like you're skeptical of him because he paid for top lawyers.
    I think they should get money. People make it sound like the lawyers are bleeding hearts. They were paid to do a job, and they did that job pretty damn well. I would be very surprised if the lawyers were still exchanging Christmas Cards with him.

    I would want a top lawyer too, it certainly helps your chances to be found innocent. I am not skeptical of him because he paid for top lawyers. I don't like him because he murdered somebody.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:49 PM   #50
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snow1868 View Post
    This.
    The big thing for me is the amount of time investigators were on the compound without the family being let back on, and the whole vial of blood thing. That was probably the most fucked up thing. No physical evidence besides a bit of blood on the dash of the missing car along with a tampered with vial of blood. Yet no reasonable doubt exists? Please.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:49 PM   #51
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sbuzzz View Post
    Agenda? I have the agenda?

    I don't want to watch the "doc" I don't want to watch someone create the least bit of sympathy for that guy.

    The best trial lawyers are able to gather sympathy for the most vile creatures on earth. Of course they were passionate - that is what they do.

    Actors, lawyers - fine line. This was a pretty high profile case for these guys. Putting in extra hours for the added exposure I'm sure was worth it.

    I guess I can not say for certain that they did not care for him, but its not like they were doing this case pro bono because they believed so truly in his innocence. He cashed out to get the best lawyers he could to try and be free.

    He was never going to get $36 million, just because you sue for an amount does not mean much. And no, he did not have to get money to defend himself, only if he wanted to get the best.
    I truly am not sure if you understand how anything law-related works. I hope to God you're not an attorney or participate in law enforcement in any capacity.

    The documentary doesn't need to "create" sympathy for Avery. He was unjustly confined against his will for 18 years for a crime he didn't commit. If that doesn't, on some level, disturb you, then I don't know how you can ever have sympathy for anyone. Imagine you or a loved one wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for 18 years.

    Also, the lawyers were already very well-known in Wisconsin and had an established reputation. Sure, being a part of a documentary that wouldn't be released for 10 years after its inception (and 8 years after they had anything to do with Avery) might be some sort of business investment, but they seemed like genuinely good guys who, although retained to provide a service, showed a ton of heart and made great arguments. I also don't think I need to distinguish the difference between acting and lawyering .

    Anyways, what I think is fascinating about this particular set of circumstances is how it's transcended political lines and mostly everyone seems to be in agreement that at least something suspicious was involved in this case. I know people on both sides of the political divide who have reached the same conclusion. I personally have worked in a prosecutor's office and am a pretty staunch supporter of PDs and even I am pretty adamant about my suspicions. It's really raised some important questions about the legitimacy of police and prosecutorial power, as well as the justice system and its functions, especially at the appellate level.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:52 PM   #52
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbetc View Post
    A place to discuss the trendy Netflix show, Making a Murderer

    Did Steven Avery kill Teresa Halbach?
    Was he framed?
    Did Brendan Dassey help?
    Do you know what inconsistent means?
    Should there be a retrial?


    Yeah?
    Yeah

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_a_Murderer
    http://www.slashfilm.com/making-a-murderer-theories/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5189670/
    1. Yes
    2. Not sure I can think he did it and got framed. I think some unethical approaches were taken by the police, though
    3. Yes
    4. Yes
    5. No
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:57 PM   #53
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by M. Steng View Post
    I truly am not sure if you understand how anything law-related works. I hope to God you're not an attorney or participate in law enforcement in any capacity.
    Nice shot. Not sure what this has to do with anything I said, or is being said, but I hope it makes you feel better.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by M. Steng View Post
    The documentary doesn't need to "create" sympathy for Avery. He was unjustly confined against his will for 18 years for a crime he didn't commit. If that doesn't, on some level, disturb you, then I don't know how you can ever have sympathy for anyone. Imagine you or a loved one wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for 18 years.
    I understand the show tied those two things together very nicely and it made for a great story. But seriously, the one trial had absolutely nothing to do with the other. I do not know much about the unjust rape trial. I know plenty about the murder trial. Those two have nothing to do with each other.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by M. Steng View Post
    Also, the lawyers were already very well-known in Wisconsin and had an established reputation. Sure, being a part of a documentary that wouldn't be released for 10 years after its inception (and 8 years after they had anything to do with Avery) might be some sort of business investment, but they seemed like genuinely good guys who, although retained to provide a service, showed a ton of heart and made great arguments. I also don't think I need to distinguish the difference between acting and lawyering .
    Of course they made great arguments. These guys are very good at what they do. Not sure what the "doc" has to do with that, there was a trial.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by M. Steng View Post
    I know people on both sides of the political divide who have reached the same conclusion.
    People who have watched a biased "doc" came to the same conclusion? Shocking.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 12:58 PM   #54
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LadyMadonna68 View Post
    IF he did in fact kill her
    Oh shit, great avatar, LM!

    Happy New Year, bud!
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:02 PM   #55
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Interesting that a lot of Wisconsinites aren't moved by any of this (from what I've seen here and other forums). Seems they either a) aren't interested in revisiting this case at all after having seen wall-to-wall local coverage on local news at the time or b) are convinced of guilt and assume any sympathizers are swayed by an overly biased presentation. Obviously those are generalizations of the small sample sizes I've observed. But, interesting nonetheless.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:14 PM   #56
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    At the end of the day, the show is opening up a discussion about our awful criminal justice system. I have yet to finish the show, but much like Serial I am keeping an open mind and not labeling him guilty or innocent. Seems apparent that before the trial even started the public was throwing away the key. Which is all too common.

    Just because a show is biased doesn't mean the facts they are presenting are not true. Some corrupt, sketchy shit was happening, innocent or not.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:14 PM   #57
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    I'm amazed at all the sympathy for him, to be honest.

    It seemed pretty obvious that the filmmakers wanted to create that sentiment, as the film seemed to be edited in that manner.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:32 PM   #58
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    I'm amazed at all the sympathy for him, to be honest.

    It seemed pretty obvious that the filmmakers wanted to create that sentiment, as the film seemed to be edited in that manner.
    I do have sympathy for him because, whether or not he was a complete asshole or weirdo, he should not have gone to jail for 18 years for a crime he did not commit.

    And whether or not he murdered Teresa Halbach, the State of Wisconsin has the burden of proving that beyond a reasonable doubt, and I'm not fully convinced they did here.

    The thrust of the show seems to be that the criminal justice system is not always out to serve and protect, and here's an example.

    Click the "Show Spoiler" Button to reveal hidden text.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:32 PM   #59
    socopithy
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    I'm amazed at all the sympathy for him, to be honest.

    It seemed pretty obvious that the filmmakers wanted to create that sentiment, as the film seemed to be edited in that manner.
    Please explain how fancy editing made anything look one way, when it was another.
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    Old 01-05-2016, 01:34 PM   #60
    Rodey
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    Re: Making a Murderer

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by socopithy View Post
    Please explain how fancy editing made anything look one way, when it was another.
    To me, the entire documentary just seemed like an extension of his defense. It was pretty biased, in my opinion.
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