Evolution vs. Creation

[taphntm]

This is something I promised a few people I'd do. This is all going to be discussion rather than me attacking your beliefs. I'm only here to hear you and vice versa. Hopefully I'm not the only one who believes in Creation or I am in for a ride

I'll start us off with this

The overall non-biblical/philosophical reason I believe in Creation of the universe by a god, whether the God I believe in or another is because of the chance that this earth fell into place. There isn't a single part of this universe, whether it be the laws, the molecules or the creatures that exist in a fragile nature. It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

[Nautiest_monkey]

I'm from Kansas, I don't think that I should be allowed to talk about this issue for fear of what my State government might do to me if they found out.

[Tomriddle]

Here it comes! Run for cover!

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by taphntm

It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

Can you please expand this statement?

Oh, and where is Doc Strangelove?

[taphntm]

Also this is from the other thread

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

How do you know that?

It's what the bible says

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

Of course, since God is perfect he could make laws that govern his universe and never need to change them- they're perfect too. But how does that relate to the age of the Earth? Why would he make all science true and logical and then fake one thing?

But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

ok, that's what I had before I decided to see if I should do this so now I'm going to try and finish getting this dinner ready, I hope I didn't just open a can of worms, for some reason it feels that way

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by taphntm

This is something I promised a few people I'd do. This is all going to be discussion rather than me attacking your beliefs. I'm only here to hear you and vice versa. Hopefully I'm not the only one who believes in Creation or I am in for a ride

I'll start us off with this

The overall non-biblical/philosophical reason I believe in Creation of the universe by a god, whether the God I believe in or another is because of the chance that this earth fell into place. There isn't a single part of this universe, whether it be the laws, the molecules or the creatures that exist in a fragile nature. It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

if you're interested in non-biblical/philosophical theories of creation... you should check out Intelligent Design Theory

here's a link to a site with links to information on ID... i think the theory is crap but it does provide actual arguments, and it's more interesting to me than religious "arguments".

http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/links.htm

[taphntm]

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

Can you please expand this statement?

Oh, and where is Doc Strangelove?

yes and...

no! Where's HolyCow?

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by taphntm

Also this is from the other thread


It's what the bible says

I wouldn't trust a man's word on his own infallibility.

Originally Posted by taphntm

But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

Can't you expand that arguement and say we can never know anything for certain, and so it doesn't pay to believe in anything, (since everything is as unlikely as anything else if you say that reality is fake)

[ryguy178]

I posted something abuot the Kansas Education thing not too long back and that got a pretty good debate going...

[taphntm]

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

Can you please expand this statement?

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by taphntm

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.

[hombreComeMorbo]

science is fact.
god is fiction.

[TheBigCaptain]

Ive always believed the earth's creation was set into motion by a god but he did not simply make the earth and everything on it in a few days day. So in a sense its a combination of evolution/creation

[Audrey]

Why can't people see the beauty of randomness and happenstance?

[taphntm]

Originally Posted by ExistenceNow

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.

A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

[davehead86]

Originally Posted by taphntm

But what is true about the laws of physics? They exist, but why do they exist? Why do things fall towards each other? Why do things even exist in space? Are they real? The age of the earth is as fake as the earth itself to me. The molecules exist because of a fake balance that is created by something that according to evolution existed from eternity, but it was just there and for some reason some laws held it together. Why? Is the dirt the god of the universe?

ok, that's what I had before I decided to see if I should do this so now I'm going to try and finish getting this dinner ready, I hope I didn't just open a can of worms, for some reason it feels that way

Did you just say that gravity and the phyisical properties of the universe are wrong, wow. The argument cant be made with that type of reeasoning. Its there it exists you cant disprove it. The fact is that God made it, and we arent supposed to understand it.
Have you ever just thought about the Big Bang, the idea in itself is absolutly ridiculous and its impossible to try and wrap your head around something so massive. No one knows how the universe was created b/c God made it mysteriously. I cross both boarders on this one (obviously). God made the universe and just lets it run its self, i think the earth is older than 10 thousand year, and that God created the earth and everything on it but that it took millions of years for things to evovle (not humans from monkeys, the evolution of species and extinction of others).

But i would like to hear the POV of a "true" creationist, where the hell do the dinosaurs fit in, they werent around in any recorded human history, and im sure as hell positive that an entire species was wipped out without the human race being wipped out with it.




--Good topic, hope it dosent get hijacked--

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by taphntm

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

True, but consider the size of the Universe.

Also, does the term "Self-Organizing systems" mean anything to you?

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by taphntm

A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

Depends on your concept of time.

[mikedevoss6]

Originally Posted by taphntm

It's more likely that by chance Alpha particles from all over the universe move molecules into my room that recreate the signing of the declaration of independence rather than this earth be created by chance.

Where did you get this info? It seems like you're just using God as an explanation for the improbable. Maybe this is proving the oither side of your argument. Maybe God made the world by forcing this improbable mass of particles to come together. It is a lot better of an explanation than that of Adam and Eve. I don't see how anyone can believe that. Here's basically what would have to happen. God creates Adam and Eve and all other animals. He then kills off all of these animals and humans and trees and natural life and turns the world into what we know it was like in the beginning. Adam and Eve is impossible.

[taphntm]

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

Can't you expand that arguement and say we can never know anything for certain, and so it doesn't pay to believe in anything, (since everything is as unlikely as anything else if you say that reality is fake)

Our souls are real to me, but this earth is a medium for it. That's just a little thought I've had.

For all the people that are going to read this anything I say is my opinion which may change... Just thought I'd clear that up instead of waiting like last time.

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by taphntm

A god doesn't come into existence, it must have already existed.

well.. i'm more likely to believe that the laws of physics always existed than i am to believe something infinitely more complicated has always been... if the laws of physics require creation then so does god...

[Audrey]

Originally Posted by taphntm

It's highly unlikely that the earth fell into place the way it has like one in
1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x 10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^(1x10^99999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9))))))))))))))

Very true...but it did happen!

Aren't we lucky to be here?

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by taphntm

Our souls are real to me, but this earth is a medium for it. That's just a little thought I've had.

For all the people that are going to read this anything I say is my opinion which may change... Just thought I'd clear that up instead of waiting like last time.

Interesting thought.

Now, my opinion: evolution is true, but natural selection by mutation is wrong. Anyone get what I'm getting at?

[ExistenceNow]

oh and the only reason we're here is because of Jupiter... not god.

[davehead86]

Originally Posted by mikedevoss6

Adam and Eve is impossible.

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by Tomriddle

Interesting thought.

Now, my opinion: evolution is true, but natural selection by mutation is wrong. Anyone get what I'm getting at?

if natural selection by mutation is wrong, how do you explain how new alleles come about in a controlled population?

[TheBigCaptain]

Originally Posted by ExistenceNow

yea. and it's TOTALLY likely that an all powerful deity, capable of manipulating that probability, came in to being from nothing.

where did these particles come from though if there is no god to create them?
they couldnt have just appeared for no reason

[davehead86]

Originally Posted by ExistenceNow

oh and the only reason we're here is because of Jupiter... not god.

true that

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by davehead86

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

for the 1,000,000,000 time NO ONE IN HISTORY HAS EVER SAID WE CAME FROM MONKEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tomriddle]

Originally Posted by davehead86

its not impossible, everything had to start from somewhere evolution or creation, and if we did come from the monkeys one of them had to evolved, and the other left behind, which is basically the same as two people creating the world.

Again, not according to my belief (that of self-organization). Then, all the monkeys would evolve at once and there is no Adam and Eve.