A potentially borderline pretentious post about the lead-up to AFTW

[Paton]

So, I’ve been reading the posts on the forum about the upcoming studio album and the comments about the tracks we’ve heard thus far.

I’ve read the positive and the negative comments and I’ve been very much reminded of the discussions that occurred during the release of both Stand Up and Big Whiskey.

I promise that it’s not my intention to create a re-hash of topics already discussed ad nauseam in previous posts. I’m also very much trying to avoid a discussion of “this is awesome” or “this sucks”. I’d instead like to talk about the experiences of a die-hard DMB fan and what has contributed to where I am today, as I imagine others might be too.

I’ve followed the band since ’96, when I was a very young and impressionable 15 year old. I very much dove in during the “Crash” era. I’ve gone on to see 30 shows; and the two upcoming shows at Alpine Valley will add to this total; which I’m very excited to do as I’ve not attended this venue before.

But I digress….and will apologize up front that this is likely going to be a long, sometimes tangent-filled post. But I find it difficult to adequately describe how I feel now without understanding how I got there.

I, like so many, was blown away by unique sound created with Crash and was immediately hooked. I think we can all remember that time; all of us much younger than we are now, regardless of how old we were at the time. I loved the “live life to the fullest” sentimentality and the phenomenal musicianship. It just felt so much more rich and immersive to me than anything else I was listening to at the time. I really connected to it and it’s absolutely the album I think of when I think of music from my high school days.

Then came Before These Crowded Streets. Although I absolutely love this album and consider it to be amongst the top 5 albums I’ve ever heard, I will, somewhat embarrassingly, admit that I HATED it when it first came out. The sound was just so much more complex and I couldn’t really get into it. It was also so HEAVY lyrically. I thought it was a real downer, to be honest. Over a period of about six months, I forced myself to listen to it and it grew on me more and more with each play. As we all know, BTCS has gone on to become the most universally accepted as THE defining album of the band; and rightfully so IMHO.

I’m going to have to spend a little time talking about Everyday. Ironically, there’s lots to say about an album….that had precious little to say! Truth be told, it’s not a completely terrible album; and if it had been released by any other band, I’m sure I’d have a pretty neutral opinion of it. There are four things that make me hate it though, as unreasonable as they might be:

1. It is the follow-up to what many consider to be the band’s greatest album…..and it happens to be their weakest
2. They scrapped what I feel would have been a stunning companion piece to BTCS in tLWS in order to record ED instead
3. Dave relegated the “Band” part of DMB to “studio player” status, which I think is pretty insulting to all involved
4. Up until it’s release, I felt as though the band could “do no wrong”. It felt like such a sell-out at the time and it’s hard to look back at it in any other light. I was 20 when it came out and the concept of a “hero” meant a lot more at that age. Dave kind of lost his “hero” status for me when this all played out.

Looking back on it at 31 years of age now, it all seems so melodramatic, quite frankly. But my reaction to Everyday changed views on the band- and this has influenced my subsequent perceptions about them since.

I’m not going to spend much time on Busted Stuff. It was a good album. I, like many, feel as though a properly released LWS would have been better. It certainly sounded like DMB, which was great. It still feels a little hollow, because the tracks are a reminder of “what could have been”. I will say that I popped the album in a few months ago for the first time in a long time (I listen to live shows far more often than the studio albums) and enjoyed it a lot more than I remember at the time it came out. This is probably because I was more able to appreciate it based on its own merits as an album and not based on the baggage I was carrying at the time.

For the purposes of this post, the next two albums are probably the most relevant.

When Stand Up came out, I remember that the band made the album listenable on their website about a week before its release. I gave it a listen, and to be honest, didn’t know what to think at first. I logged onto Nancies.org and started to read the comments. Although it’s hard to imagine now, I’m sure that many of you remember that they were OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE!! People were praising the album and specifically, Mark Baston for helping the band to evolve their sound. Seriously, people were eating it up! I wish the old Nancies message board posts were still available. I’d love to go back and read the posts. I wanted to believe too and for a time, was able to convince myself that it was a really good album.

At the time Stand Up was released, I was living in Calgary, AB. The band really never played anywhere near Calgary and so I had very little opportunity to see them live. As a result, my “obsession” with the band (and staying current with what was going on) was probably at its lowest between ‘05-’07 (when I moved back to Toronto). As a result, I had no idea at the time that the shine of SU had come off for pretty much everyone. The cracks (ie weaknesses) really shone through after multiple listenings- and (with the opposite effect of BTCS) got worse with each listen.

People also got sick of hearing the new tracks live; which I’m afraid might happen with every single new studio release moving forward.

Which brings us on to Big Whiskey. Now, I’ll go on record right now and I say that I really do quite like this album. It came out at a time when the band was really at a cross-roads with the untimely death of LeRoi Moore. It was also a return to what I can best describe as the DMB “Summer Sound” and genuinely had me excited to see the tracks live (which I certainly couldn’t say about ED or SU). With that being said, people went BANANAS for it. Calling it part of a newly coined “Big Four”, the response was immense. However, after about a summer and a half of touring these songs, community sentiment towards the album changed dramatically. I’ll say that personally, elements that I really didn’t notice/mind at first also started to detract from my enjoyment. The vocal treatment is probably the biggest and seems only a couple of steps away from “auto tune” on some tracks. The album also seems very much Boyd-light.

Again though, it was so interesting to see the collective community seem to turn on the album over the past 3 years. Now, this phenomenon was certainly not as prominent as it was on SU, but it does make me wonder how effective we as a collective fan community are at objectively rating our favorite band’s music. And I also find myself saying about the album “it’s really good, but…….”.

This all leads me to the whole point of this post in the first place (thank you to those who stuck it out to the end with me).

I find it so incredibly difficult to honestly and objectively rate new DMB music anymore. I nearly ruined two really good albums of theirs for myself (BS and BW) because I was constantly comparing them to their old records, rather than allowing them to stand (or fall) on their own merit. Furthermore, and I don’t quite know how to say this, but because of the baggage that many of us carry as a result of Everyday, and some of their subsequent lackluster offerings, I think that many of us are still waiting for the band to “turn the page” and return to where they were 14 + years ago. I’m afraid that if we go into this album expecting this outcome- something that will “undo” the “mistakes” made over the past 11 years, that we’re all going to be bitterly disappointed. I don’t think that “turning the page” is what the band is really trying to do. These guys just aren’t in the same place today that they were in when UTTAD, Crash or BTCS were created. In fact, I’d challenge anyone who was around when those albums were released to objectively look at their own life evolution during that time. I would imagine the things that are important to you today are quite a bit different than what was important 15 years ago!

Which leads us to where we are today. I’ve been reading all of the comments on the boards- the overwhelming support for the album and the immediate leaps to attack anyone who says anything negative about what’s going on. It all rings remarkably similar to what I read when SU and BW were released. Which makes me a little afraid. I think when the full album drops, people are again going to go bananas. It will be the newly created “big four” all over again.

I’m really afraid that, after a year or two of touring these new songs, people are again going to realize that the introduction of the new material means you’re going to hear Tripping Billies and Jimi Thing less than you did before, which is automatically going to result in people again hating the new music.

Yes, Lillywhite is a GENIUS- and not just for the work he’s done with DMB. U2’s War is one of the greatest albums I’ve ever heard and I’ve recently had the chance to fall in love with it all over again through the magic of Vinyl. He’s also produced some turkeys (Jason Mraz’s Mr. A-Z, as an example).

What this tells me is that a producer is there to help the band to get the most out of their recording process, but ultimately it’s the band’s work that most significantly informs the final product.

I have no doubt that Steve Lillywhite is the man to help the band move forward and as a result of his collaborative efforts, this record will be the best it possibly can be, given the source material created by the boys.

What I’m not going to do is immediately compare it to their previous efforts, good or bad. I’m not going to say “it’s part of a new Big Four”, or “it’s the best album since BTCS”. I think that puts too much pressure on it and sets it up to fail long-term.

What I will say is that the two new studio tracks that I’ve heard thus far sound quite promising. I’m particularly impressed with Mercy. I think there’s a good chance that this is going to be a very good album.

Beyond that, I’m going to withhold any further speculation and will do everything I can to judge the final product based on its own merits; baggage free.

I really hope that this all doesn’t come off as too preachy- and I certainly want to be clear that these are my own experiences and that I’m not trying to thrust them on anyone or assume that everyone should feel the same way.

I’m genuinely interested to know what you think!

[thebridge15]

Originally Posted by Paton

When Stand Up came out, I remember that the band made the album listenable on their website about a week before its release. I gave it a listen, and to be honest, didn’t know what to think at first. I logged onto Nancies.org and started to read the comments. Although it’s hard to imagine now, I’m sure that many of you remember that they were OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE!! People were praising the album and specifically, Mark Baston for helping the band to evolve their sound. Seriously, people were eating it up! I wish the old Nancies message board posts were still available. I’d love to go back and read the posts. I wanted to believe too and for a time, was able to convince myself that it was a really good album.

I've wished this many times for many reasons, but this is a good one. They set up a thread for each individual song, and they were pretty much all universally liked at first. I distinctly remember how much people enjoyed Stolen Away.

Honestly, the only criticism I remember of Stand Up that surfaced basically right away was disappointment in how the studio version of Hello Again turned out.

[dre2142]

Great 1st post. Tons of great great points, and I dont find it preachy at all.

Im one of those that arent digging any of the new songs. Im most intrigued about Drunken Soldier (due to the bit that was on the promo video). That song to me sounds most like what DMB is known for.

Im not digging the slower, down tempo songs that have been played so far. Im sure (hoping I guess) that there are more upbeat faster tempo songs to come.....otherwise the album tour is going to be a totally different tour/show experience to a lot of people than normal.

[dmb27364041]

My thoughts on your post are as follows:

1. It's way too fucking long, and that in itself, is pretentious.
2. I think you're unnecessarily over thinking things.
3. It might be a better idea to listen to the music, enjoy what you enjoy, and not a give a shit what other people's opinions are on the band because really, no one cares about your opinion either. People like what they like about this band and no one else's opinion can change that.
4. But, thanks for sharing your feelings anyway.

[killerangel]

Originally Posted by dmb27364041

My thoughts on your post are as follows:

1. It's way too fucking long, and that in itself, is pretentious.
2. I think you're unnecessarily over thinking things.
3. It might be a better idea to listen to the music, enjoy what you enjoy, and not a give a shit what other people's opinions are on the band because really, no one cares about your opinion either. People like what they like about this band and no one else's opinion can change that.
4. But, thanks for sharing your feelings anyway.

Well that was pretty dick move. Pretty unnecessary if you ask me.

[dre2142]

Originally Posted by dmb27364041

My thoughts on your post are as follows:

1. It's way too fucking long, and that in itself, is pretentious.

You have short attention span?

2. I think you're unnecessarily over thinking things.

Obviously you didnt read it.

3. It might be a better idea to listen to the music, enjoy what you enjoy, and not a give a shit what other people's opinions are on the band because really, no one cares about your opinion either. People like what they like about this band and no one else's opinion can change that.

Speak for yourself.

4. But, thanks for sharing your feelings anyway.

[Trippingchris]

I wish Big Whiskey had more love these days. It's really a good album by the band, and I'd take it over Busted Stuff any day. BS seems so half-assed because it was.

I remember Stand Up being universally praised too yet it took a good solid year or 2 to realize BTCS was an amazing album. I was one of the fans that didn't enjoy that album at all until the 1-2 year mark of digesting it. But goes to show how weird the collective fan base is when it comes to their views on the material the band has put out.

If you think about it we really only have 1-3 crappy albums depending on how you look at it. If they put out an album every 2 years like traditional artists we'd have about 10 albums at this point. I'm sure they wouldn't all be great either.

Definitely looking forward to AFTW. The songs are growing on me, reminds me of BTCS...my head still can't process the songs but there's something there that keeps me wanting to listen. Just like in '94 and '96.

[lasalleb3]

Great read, I really enjoyed it! As a new member of the community I love hearing what the consensus opinion was from years past.

[Trippingchris]

Originally Posted by lasalleb3

Great read, I really enjoyed it! As a new member of the community I love hearing what the consensus opinion was from years past.

Welcome! Don't hesitate to share your opinion but don't back away just because a few negative nancies tear you down. It can be a rough crowd here but most of the people here are really legit and respectful.

[kyledmb]

Man everything you said could be said of where I am at too! Even the age thing (I was 15 when Crash came out and really jumped on board then). I have certainly learned one thing...first impressions with DMB's music don't mean jack shit. Time is necessary with this new stuff. The test will be when, 10 years down the road, I still turn to AFTW to listen start to finish. There are only a small handful of songs from BW, SU and ED that I go back to... Ok, none from SU or ED, but a couple from BW.

I really think that Lillywhite just knows how to bring the best (and most classic) DMB sound forward. So overall I am excited. No more lyrics like on BTCS though... that Dave is long gone.

[dotpsd]

Thanks so much for taking the time to write this post. I really enjoyed reading it. I have a very similar experience as you do, started listening to the back not long after UTTAD was released when I was too young to really appreciate what a fantastic band I was introduced to.

Today, DMB is still my favorite band. I'm looking forward to hearing this album because it's new and fresh material. I really hope that I'm able to take the album for what it's worth and try not to compare it to BTCS. It's almost unfair to compare a bands new records to old ones, but we all are guilty of it.

Maybe it's our nature to want a band to return to an old sound that we fell in love with. Maybe we just want to be back at that point of our lives again the first time we heard them.

For the record, I didn't find anything pretentious about this post. It was nice to read something that was well written and that hit on a lot of good points. Anyone who is complaining about it's length is just being lazy in my opinion.

[Dramageek]

Very nice post. You and I are in a similar boat. I'm 30, started listening to the band in late 1997 when I was 15 after hearing my close friends in high school rave about them. I loved the uniqueness of their sound, the surprisingly harmonious interplay between violin and saxophone. Where we differ a little bit is that I apparently was one of the only ones who LOVED BTCS from the first couple notes of PNP. That album blew my mind and opened my eyes to what good, somewhat experimental modern music can be.

I remember just being confused by Everyday, wondering where the hell that great song called Grey Street had gone. Busted Stuff I was fairly indifferent to after hearing the greatness of tLWS, but I did like You Never Know quite a bit. I remember trying to convince myself that Stand Up was not too shabby, and while there was a very positive response over on Nancies, I remember there were certainly a few that were like, "Uh, guys, sorry to say, but this sucks." To me, Stand Up irritates me because there is no excuse for how poor it is. The ED/BS/tLWS episode was behind them and they had a clean slate. And they drew incoherent stick figures instead of a masterpiece on it.

BW I enjoyed quite a bit (and still do), but it still sounded very different. I remember jumping for joy upon learning that Lillywhite was coming back to the helm. And when I heard Gaucho for the first time, my first thought was, "So that is what DMB is supposed to sound like in the studio." Lillywhite gets them better than any producer, and even if the songs aren't quite up to par, they will be unmistakably DMB songs.

It has occurred to me that Dave came down with what is known as "Steve Blass Disease" in terms of his songwriting. Steve Blass was a pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates in the late 1960's into the 1970's. For a time, he was one of the best pitchers in the game. He pitched TWO complete games in the 1971 world series, and would have been the MVP if not for Roberto Clemente. Then, the next season or the season after, without explanation or reason, his abilities disappeared. He and the team tried everything to restore them, but he could no longer pitch. It seems like that is what happened to Dave's songwriting abilities in 2000-2001. They just went so drastically downhill for seemingly no reason at all, and he's never quite recovered them.

[dotpsd]

Originally Posted by lasalleb3

Great read, I really enjoyed it! As a new member of the community I love hearing what the consensus opinion was from years past.

Great point here. Please don't hesitate to post more often around here!

[atlantic]

An album you initially love is most likely not a "challenging" album, its a simple one with catchy hooks that pull you in. Eventually the hooks lost their luster and you realize, while the album may still be good, its no masterpiece. Stand Up is prob the catchiest, most accessible album on first listen. In a way thats nice, i love to put it on while chilling in the backyard, on the lake, etc. its fun. BTCS has some catchy songs, (Rapunzel, Stay) and i think these are the weakest tracks. Most of the album is layered, challenging, and when you finally start to see it for the masterpiece it is you think... holy shit... THIS is good music. Then you put stand up back on the shelf.

[dotpsd]

Originally Posted by Dramageek

It has occurred to me that Dave came down with what is known as "Steve Blass Disease" in terms of his songwriting. Steve Blass was a pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates in the late 1960's into the 1970's. For a time, he was one of the best pitchers in the game. He pitched TWO complete games in the 1971 world series, and would have been the MVP if not for Roberto Clemente. Then, the next season or the season after, without explanation or reason, his abilities disappeared. He and the team tried everything to restore them, but he could no longer pitch. It seems like that is what happened to Dave's songwriting abilities in 2000-2001. They just went so drastically downhill for seemingly no reason at all, and he's never quite recovered them.

There's a few things that I think may have effected his writing. Maybe all the ideas that he had in his head at a younger age changed as he aged. Every artist has their peak, maybe it's the same for sound writers? Could it be something as simple as just running out of ideas? Maybe he even got more ideas under the influence of alcohol and other drugs? This is all just speculation of course, just somethings that come to mind when I think of what songs were about back in the 90's and what they are about now.

[dotpsd]

Originally Posted by atlantic

An album you initially love is most likely not a "challenging" album, its a simple one with catchy hooks that pull you in. Eventually the hooks lost their luster and you realize, while the album may still be good, its no masterpiece. Stand Up is prob the catchiest, most accessible album on first listen. In a way thats nice, i love to put it on while chilling in the backyard, on the lake, etc. its fun. BTCS has some catchy songs, (Rapunzel, Stay) and i think these are the weakest tracks. Most of the album is layered, challenging, and when you finally start to see it for the masterpiece it is you think... holy shit... THIS is good music. Then you put stand up back on the shelf.

Perfectly stated. One of my greatest joys is hearing BTCS on some nice headphones and hearing things I've never heard before. I like a nice solid catchy song, but what I love even more is substance.

[Dramageek]

Originally Posted by lasalleb3

Great read, I really enjoyed it! As a new member of the community I love hearing what the consensus opinion was from years past.

Hello and welcome! Post all you want. Above all, enjoy the music.

Originally Posted by dotpsd

There's a few things that I think may have effected his writing. Maybe all the ideas that he had in his head at a younger age changed as he aged. Every artist has their peak, maybe it's the same for sound writers? Could it be something as simple as just running out of ideas? Maybe he even got more ideas under the influence of alcohol and other drugs? This is all just speculation of course, just somethings that come to mind when I think of what songs were about back in the 90's and what they are about now.

I agree with all of this. It just boggles my mind how drastic the shift was. Every artist, I think, has a creative peak and then tapers off. But here, Dave's songwriting took such a shockingly drastic shift in a such short time. The songwriting did not just fall off the rails, it jumped to a completely different track. It's quite possibly a combination of these factors.

[joshizzle3]

Thanks for that post! Not too long at all. I was 1 when UTTAD came out. It's very interesting to hear the perspective of the fan base throughout the years, since I've only been active since a few years before BWGK. I'm afraid you're right. People like new material and get sick of it when it's not new anymore, because it's not as good as the best of the best. It's almost blasphemous around here to suggest that Baby Blue is better than Proudest Monkey, or LITHOG is on par with Jimi Thing. The band still makes great music. That's why they're still my favorite band. I'll definitely keep this post in mind come September when I listen to the new album, and hopefully keep everything in perspective.

[Trippingchris]

Originally Posted by atlantic

An album you initially love is most likely not a "challenging" album, its a simple one with catchy hooks that pull you in. Eventually the hooks lost their luster and you realize, while the album may still be good, its no masterpiece. Stand Up is prob the catchiest, most accessible album on first listen. In a way thats nice, i love to put it on while chilling in the backyard, on the lake, etc. its fun. BTCS has some catchy songs, (Rapunzel, Stay) and i think these are the weakest tracks. Most of the album is layered, challenging, and when you finally start to see it for the masterpiece it is you think... holy shit... THIS is good music. Then you put stand up back on the shelf.

Stand Up is really the worst album when it comes to being catchy and accessible. All of the casual fans I know don't even acknowledge that album. And while that's my sample population, even as new as they are, they still talk about their older albums and BW.


I agree BTCS is an awesome album. Even with it's weakest tracks it's still amazing. It truly is a masterpiece.

[jammer7]

Originally Posted by Paton

So, I’ve been reading the posts on the forum about the upcoming studio album and the comments about the tracks we’ve heard thus far.

I’ve read the positive and the negative comments and I’ve been very much reminded of the discussions that occurred during the release of both Stand Up and Big Whiskey.

I promise that it’s not my intention to create a re-hash of topics already discussed ad nauseam in previous posts. I’m also very much trying to avoid a discussion of “this is awesome” or “this sucks”. I’d instead like to talk about the experiences of a die-hard DMB fan and what has contributed to where I am today, as I imagine others might be too.

I’ve followed the band since ’96, when I was a very young and impressionable 15 year old. I very much dove in during the “Crash” era. I’ve gone on to see 30 shows; and the two upcoming shows at Alpine Valley will add to this total; which I’m very excited to do as I’ve not attended this venue before.

But I digress….and will apologize up front that this is likely going to be a long, sometimes tangent-filled post. But I find it difficult to adequately describe how I feel now without understanding how I got there.

I, like so many, was blown away by unique sound created with Crash and was immediately hooked. I think we can all remember that time; all of us much younger than we are now, regardless of how old we were at the time. I loved the “live life to the fullest” sentimentality and the phenomenal musicianship. It just felt so much more rich and immersive to me than anything else I was listening to at the time. I really connected to it and it’s absolutely the album I think of when I think of music from my high school days.

Then came Before These Crowded Streets. Although I absolutely love this album and consider it to be amongst the top 5 albums I’ve ever heard, I will, somewhat embarrassingly, admit that I HATED it when it first came out. The sound was just so much more complex and I couldn’t really get into it. It was also so HEAVY lyrically. I thought it was a real downer, to be honest. Over a period of about six months, I forced myself to listen to it and it grew on me more and more with each play. As we all know, BTCS has gone on to become the most universally accepted as THE defining album of the band; and rightfully so IMHO.

I’m going to have to spend a little time talking about Everyday. Ironically, there’s lots to say about an album….that had precious little to say! Truth be told, it’s not a completely terrible album; and if it had been released by any other band, I’m sure I’d have a pretty neutral opinion of it. There are four things that make me hate it though, as unreasonable as they might be:

1. It is the follow-up to what many consider to be the band’s greatest album…..and it happens to be their weakest
2. They scrapped what I feel would have been a stunning companion piece to BTCS in tLWS in order to record ED instead
3. Dave relegated the “Band” part of DMB to “studio player” status, which I think is pretty insulting to all involved
4. Up until it’s release, I felt as though the band could “do no wrong”. It felt like such a sell-out at the time and it’s hard to look back at it in any other light. I was 20 when it came out and the concept of a “hero” meant a lot more at that age. Dave kind of lost his “hero” status for me when this all played out.

Looking back on it at 31 years of age now, it all seems so melodramatic, quite frankly. But my reaction to Everyday changed views on the band- and this has influenced my subsequent perceptions about them since.

I’m not going to spend much time on Busted Stuff. It was a good album. I, like many, feel as though a properly released LWS would have been better. It certainly sounded like DMB, which was great. It still feels a little hollow, because the tracks are a reminder of “what could have been”. I will say that I popped the album in a few months ago for the first time in a long time (I listen to live shows far more often than the studio albums) and enjoyed it a lot more than I remember at the time it came out. This is probably because I was more able to appreciate it based on its own merits as an album and not based on the baggage I was carrying at the time.

For the purposes of this post, the next two albums are probably the most relevant.

When Stand Up came out, I remember that the band made the album listenable on their website about a week before its release. I gave it a listen, and to be honest, didn’t know what to think at first. I logged onto Nancies.org and started to read the comments. Although it’s hard to imagine now, I’m sure that many of you remember that they were OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE!! People were praising the album and specifically, Mark Baston for helping the band to evolve their sound. Seriously, people were eating it up! I wish the old Nancies message board posts were still available. I’d love to go back and read the posts. I wanted to believe too and for a time, was able to convince myself that it was a really good album.

At the time Stand Up was released, I was living in Calgary, AB. The band really never played anywhere near Calgary and so I had very little opportunity to see them live. As a result, my “obsession” with the band (and staying current with what was going on) was probably at its lowest between ‘05-’07 (when I moved back to Toronto). As a result, I had no idea at the time that the shine of SU had come off for pretty much everyone. The cracks (ie weaknesses) really shone through after multiple listenings- and (with the opposite effect of BTCS) got worse with each listen.

People also got sick of hearing the new tracks live; which I’m afraid might happen with every single new studio release moving forward.

Which brings us on to Big Whiskey. Now, I’ll go on record right now and I say that I really do quite like this album. It came out at a time when the band was really at a cross-roads with the untimely death of LeRoi Moore. It was also a return to what I can best describe as the DMB “Summer Sound” and genuinely had me excited to see the tracks live (which I certainly couldn’t say about ED or SU). With that being said, people went BANANAS for it. Calling it part of a newly coined “Big Four”, the response was immense. However, after about a summer and a half of touring these songs, community sentiment towards the album changed dramatically. I’ll say that personally, elements that I really didn’t notice/mind at first also started to detract from my enjoyment. The vocal treatment is probably the biggest and seems only a couple of steps away from “auto tune” on some tracks. The album also seems very much Boyd-light.

Again though, it was so interesting to see the collective community seem to turn on the album over the past 3 years. Now, this phenomenon was certainly not as prominent as it was on SU, but it does make me wonder how effective we as a collective fan community are at objectively rating our favorite band’s music. And I also find myself saying about the album “it’s really good, but…….”.

This all leads me to the whole point of this post in the first place (thank you to those who stuck it out to the end with me).

I find it so incredibly difficult to honestly and objectively rate new DMB music anymore. I nearly ruined two really good albums of theirs for myself (BS and BW) because I was constantly comparing them to their old records, rather than allowing them to stand (or fall) on their own merit. Furthermore, and I don’t quite know how to say this, but because of the baggage that many of us carry as a result of Everyday, and some of their subsequent lackluster offerings, I think that many of us are still waiting for the band to “turn the page” and return to where they were 14 + years ago. I’m afraid that if we go into this album expecting this outcome- something that will “undo” the “mistakes” made over the past 11 years, that we’re all going to be bitterly disappointed. I don’t think that “turning the page” is what the band is really trying to do. These guys just aren’t in the same place today that they were in when UTTAD, Crash or BTCS were created. In fact, I’d challenge anyone who was around when those albums were released to objectively look at their own life evolution during that time. I would imagine the things that are important to you today are quite a bit different than what was important 15 years ago!

Which leads us to where we are today. I’ve been reading all of the comments on the boards- the overwhelming support for the album and the immediate leaps to attack anyone who says anything negative about what’s going on. It all rings remarkably similar to what I read when SU and BW were released. Which makes me a little afraid. I think when the full album drops, people are again going to go bananas. It will be the newly created “big four” all over again.

I’m really afraid that, after a year or two of touring these new songs, people are again going to realize that the introduction of the new material means you’re going to hear Tripping Billies and Jimi Thing less than you did before, which is automatically going to result in people again hating the new music.

Yes, Lillywhite is a GENIUS- and not just for the work he’s done with DMB. U2’s War is one of the greatest albums I’ve ever heard and I’ve recently had the chance to fall in love with it all over again through the magic of Vinyl. He’s also produced some turkeys (Jason Mraz’s Mr. A-Z, as an example).

What this tells me is that a producer is there to help the band to get the most out of their recording process, but ultimately it’s the band’s work that most significantly informs the final product.

I have no doubt that Steve Lillywhite is the man to help the band move forward and as a result of his collaborative efforts, this record will be the best it possibly can be, given the source material created by the boys.

What I’m not going to do is immediately compare it to their previous efforts, good or bad. I’m not going to say “it’s part of a new Big Four”, or “it’s the best album since BTCS”. I think that puts too much pressure on it and sets it up to fail long-term.

What I will say is that the two new studio tracks that I’ve heard thus far sound quite promising. I’m particularly impressed with Mercy. I think there’s a good chance that this is going to be a very good album.

Beyond that, I’m going to withhold any further speculation and will do everything I can to judge the final product based on its own merits; baggage free.

I really hope that this all doesn’t come off as too preachy- and I certainly want to be clear that these are my own experiences and that I’m not trying to thrust them on anyone or assume that everyone should feel the same way.

I’m genuinely interested to know what you think!

I am the same age and fell in love with DMB during the mid-90's. I agree completely with your views. I was very fast to rip the new material. I felt that Mercy and Gaucho were too politically driven. If Only and The Riff are more of favorites.

Like the band, I have changed as you pointed out. I was hoping this album would've been a collection of songs like Shotgun, Sugar Will, Blackjack, etc.

I will give the album a fair shot.

[spider-man]

i miss nancies.org

[SBSFC91]

I love every single album except for Stand UP and even then I don't hate that album................... Problem?

[Weezerblather]

I went to my first Dave show last summer, and when I got home I borrowed all the Dave albums from my friend.

I knew absolutely nothing about Dave aside from his singles and I had no idea what albums were supposed to be good or not so I can say that I digested the whole catalog as close to as objectively as one can.

I had all the albums on my ipod on repeat for about 3 months straight non stop (this is not a joke). I have since listened to Dave every single day since the show and have already seen him again (hangout) and have my tickets for all three nights at the gorge. Without hyperbole, his music literally changed my life. I seriously can't imagine a time when I didn't listen to Dave now, it is that good and I can easily say he is my favorite artist now.

back to my point...I thought, and still do, Big Whiskey was a very solid album. Call me crazy but without any sort of expectations I thought it was a fun, funky album. The only albums I really didn't LOVE at the time were RTT and SU, and they both have grown on my immensely but as far as studio albums go those two are my least favorite. RTT because of the quality of recording, and SU because of the quality of songs. So hearing these new songs is the first time I have ever heard a new Dave song and had something to compare it to, and to be honest I really like them.

not that anyone cares, but hey, thanks for listening, it must be hard for you guys to imagine sitting down and listening to every single Dave album for the first time....

[gakm7]

I don't really listen to their studio albums much if at all... The ones I've listened to the most though are BTCS and BW. My favorite two tracks from the two are Dreaming Tree && Spoon and Squirm && Baby Blue.

However, I can maybe give a different perspective on this. I first heard of the band by watching a PBS special that showed some songs from N4 of their Red Rocks shows in 2005. I only caught the very end of it (Bayou with RR) but I was INSTANTLY hooked by their unique sound. I never heard anything remotely similar to it (and STILL haven't). I then bought the 2cd/dvd version of that concert just to get Bayou and then see if other songs were good too. I liked some other ones (found out that songs I've heard on the radio before [wayg, ants, space] were also by them, so i liked those. Then I bought Central Park. I remember liking the shorter songs [too much, wayg, granny, etc.] and disliking some of the longer songs cuz they were weird and got boring [two step comes to mind right now] Then I got the full 4 nights of the RR concerts. Again, I tended to gravitate towards the shorter songs [and songs that sounded more countryish like grace & dreamgirl] and dislike the longer songs. Also, I hated Lover Lay Down at 1st listen for some reason just like I hated Two Step. After that, I just kept listening to those albums over and over again. Many of the longer [and rarer] songs that most of us love and enjoy began to grow on me little by little until I truly started to understand what the band was about and I really started to get hardcore into them. The songs I hated prior (lld, two step) I began to fall in love with because I gave them a fair chance. Bayou (even though it's generally hated on these boards) will always hold a special place with me because it's the 1st song of theirs that I heard and knew it was them. And it was the song that got me into them in the first place. But now that I appreciate them for their improv abilities and long groovy jams, I love songs like #41, two step, Dreaming Tree, and Jimi more than the songs that are short and/or sound the same all the time (satellite, dreamgirl, wayg, wtwe, etc.) Now I own every single LT, D&T release, live release, other odds and ends, && BW. They also opened my eyes to other epic bands like led zeppelin, fleetwood mac, aerosmith, and ac/dc

[rantingthespian]

Though I don't agree with you 100% on everything, your reasons and opinions are entirely logical and justifiable. Also, it didn't come off as "bitching", which is a relief from around here when talking about everything the band has done from Everyday through BWGK.

I do entirely agree that this album should not be compared to BTCS, the LWS, BWGK, or their other albums. It should be judged on it's own merits.


To me, it's been rather sad seeing so many people turn on BWGK over the past 3 years, where as my opinion on it has stayed quite high and extremely positive.

[gakm7]

O, and I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the new songs. All of them. Compared to FTWII, WIA, and Spaceman [I LOVED Spaceman @ 1st listen], I like Mercy, Gaucho, and Sweet a lot more. [LOVED Gaucho and full band Sweet at 1st listen] I also love If Only and ADORE The Riff. The Riff is my favorite new song of theirs right now and I can't wait to hear it on the album. I am VERY excited for it's release! =)

[OutsideEternity]

Originally Posted by rantingthespian

To me, it's been rather sad seeing so many people turn on BWGK over the past 3 years, where as my opinion on it has stayed quite high and extremely positive.

That is the biggest surprise to me since the release of BWGK. I'm not saying it trumps the Big Three, but it is a fantastic album front to back, and I think they did an amazing job integrating Roi's parts in the album to honor him.

I really can't get over any post that says Shake Me, Time Bomb, or Seven are terrible songs. For the life of me, I do not understand those opinions. But hey, everyone is entitled to them!

[jaymas9]

I like this post, it was well thought out and rational. For me honestly, I just needed this band to climb out of the hole they created with Stand Up (such a dark time, the initial shine wore off hard) and keep getting better (a lot better) with each subsequent album. I think they are on that path. And if this is the first of a few new records with Lillywhite, I am excited.

Stand Up is proof everyone was just so ready for new music from this band, we blew our metaphorical loads early, and then got embarrassed afterward.

Now as far as my feelings regarding Dave's ability to write a setlist with proper flow...well that's a completely different story.

[aoeiifreak]

Wow, epic first post. I agree with a lot of what you said. Welcome to ants!

[dmb617]

great post to read through. when i was 15, Everyday was coming out. So all the hype and anticipation for a new album that we're talking about now, well when I was first getting into them, that 'new album hype' was happening with Everyday. When I heard ED, I was confused. I had an impression of the band, a great live band (after hearing Red Rocks), and an epic drummer and a sound unlike any other out there. Then I hear ED and I thought 'this sounds so studio! so polished... im confused.' saw DMB for the first time on their ED tour in 2001 and was hooked, cuz I could see through the ED songs and realize there was more to the band, they were just in a weird space at the time. Seeing them live encouraged me to keep looking into the band, despite the weirdness of ED. I downloaded the Lillywhite Sessions off Napster (hah, remember napster? ) and was hooked from there on out.