So... I'd like to talk about religion

[smb41]

Originally Posted by dontdrink36

Would survival of the species not be reason enough not to get along? If animals can do this within their own species certainly humans could do the same.

But with the lack of a true moral standard or higher being, why would this be important for everyone?

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by smb41

But with the lack of a true moral standard or higher being, why would this be important for everyone?

There's no such thing as objective morality. It's not important to everyone. Which is why people kill each other and steal things and rape people.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

If you look at Mesopotamia, which is the earliest civilization we have on record, polygamy (mostly polygyny) was widely practiced. So to honestly talk about the topic of "traditional marriage", I would say that polygamy is as traditional as monogamy. So to say that "one man one woman" is the most traditional form of marriage is disingenuous.

By "traditional," I mean in terms of the Christian faith. You can make arguments as to when/how that definition came about, but the Catholic Church defines marriage as one man and one woman and I don't think that can be disputed.

Here's an interesting (albeit lengthy) article on the topic: http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-conte...eorgeFinal.pdf

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by smb41

By "traditional," I mean in terms of the Christian faith. You can make arguments as to when/how that definition came about, but the Catholic Church defines marriage as one man and one woman and I don't think that can be disputed.

Here's an interesting (albeit lengthy) article on the topic: http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-conte...eorgeFinal.pdf

In the eyes of the church, yes, "traditional marriage" only exists between a man and a woman. That is the church's view, whether or not I agree with said view.

But in the eyes of the actual historical record, polygamy is as much traditional as monogamy is.

I bookmarked that article, I'll give it a read tomorrow on my break.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

1. Empathy. Treat other people the way you want to be treated.
2. Again, empathy. In my 26 years of life I've raped and killed as many people as I've wanted to. Zero. To paraphrase a line from True Detective, If the only thing keeping you from being a violent and running rampage on the world is a promise of eternal happiness in the sky, well then you're just an asshole.
3. Because we don't want to see the world go to shit.

Human civilization is merely reliant upon empathy (which, again, is not important to everyone)? As I said in my original post - I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

There's no such thing as objective morality. It's not important to everyone. Which is why people kill each other and steal things and rape people.

This is where we disagree. I believe we've previously debated this topic on Ants: http://www.antsmarching.org/forum/sh...=173289&page=4

[smb41]

On the topic of abortion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQcVXhGgxI

[cazzie34]

Originally Posted by smb41

On the topic of abortion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQcVXhGgxI

I watched the first two minutes...would he (or you) charge women who get an abortion with murder in the first degree?

[Climb2safety]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

It does because it's not my place to tell someone else what to do with their own body.

It's like me telling you that you can't have a BBQ pork sandwich because it's Lent and I've given up meat. It's like someone telling me I can't get a tattoo because of how they interpret the book of Leviticus and it's relevancy to modern times. How is it fair that my belief system should dictate your life and the decisions you make?

Regardless of what I believe about life, or what I think the Bible says about any given topic, it's not fair for me to force my beliefs or opinions about any topic on other people and use said beliefs to dictate their life.

Worst simile in the history of the Internet

[MarvinBerry]

Not personally religious.

However if religion makes you a happier and kinder person, go wild. If religion makes you weird, judgmental or just batshit crazy, you suck.

[Nick_United]

Originally Posted by MarvinBerry

Not personally religious.

However if religion makes you a happier and kinder person, go wild. If religion makes you weird, judgmental or just batshit crazy, you suck.

I definitely lean this way as well. If religion works for you and you use it for good then more power to you. But if it makes you judgemental and only accepting of certain people, I cannot get behind that.

Jumping back to my ex-girlfriend, her pastor father and mother wrote her a letter, which I read, that basically said they would never support our relationship because I was a "non-believer" and that she needed to think about that in regards to her place in heaven and her spiritual journey.

[ExistenceNow]

Yikes, man. That's awful.

[mr.MikeD]

This is not meant to be combative, though it might sound like it.
My parents raised me completely non-religious and church was something that my friends' parents made them do. It has seemed so blatantly obvious to me for as long as I can remember that none of the gods various people worship are real things. I realize its more complex than that, I do have some more slightly more in depth thoughts, but that have I've always seen it.

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by mr.MikeD

This is not meant to be combative, though it might sound like it.
My parents raised me completely non-religious and church was something that my friends' parents made them do. It has seemed so blatantly obvious to me for as long as I can remember that none of the gods various people worship are real things. I realize its more complex than that, I do have some more slightly more in depth thoughts, but that have I've always seen it.

Not to disrespect your opinion, but what leads you to believe that? Just curious about your view on the subject.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by Nick_United

I definitely lean this way as well. If religion works for you and you use it for good then more power to you. But if it makes you judgemental and only accepting of certain people, I cannot get behind that.

Jumping back to my ex-girlfriend, her pastor father and mother wrote her a letter, which I read, that basically said they would never support our relationship because I was a "non-believer" and that she needed to think about that in regards to her place in heaven and her spiritual journey.

Yep that's a great example of its divisiveness. Sorry to hear that.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

This really encapsulates my beliefs. I don't go to Church as much as I should, but when I go I really do get something out of it. Do I believe that the Bible is a historical account of what actually happened in real life? No. But the message behind the gospel is what counts and I actually feel really inspired to be a better person when I go to church and think about what I was taught as a child.


This is a really good post, Chad. I subscribe to a lot of what you said here

depends on what you mean by 'historical'.


There is zero proof of a "Moses" existing. It is explained away that he was stricken from the Egyptian records. But this shouldn't be too shocking considering that we're talking maybe 1500 BC.


There is actually very little historicity of Alexander the Great; you can argue that there is more historicity of Jesus than Alexander the Great, and Jesus was a peasant and not the conqueror of the world.


I wrote this for Listverse - they recently edited it and removed an entry - that focused specifically on Jesus



incidentally, since they didn't tell me they were editing my list 2 years+ after I wrote it here's the 'offending' entry they deleted... just ignore the links things b/c I just cut and pasted from my original.




Jesus had siblings


Mark names (LINK 30) 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters of Jesus: James, Joseph, Jude, and Simon. That passage has been a point of contention of centuries, especially those who hold Mary, Jesus’ mother, as an ever-virgin. Theories abound that perhaps they were not “bothers” (LINK 31). The 4 could be cousins, or children of Joseph (Jesus earth father) from a prior unmentioned marriage.

The word in the original Greek is adelphoi, which translates to brother (LINK 32). It literally means “from the same womb”. That should lead little doubt to who the authors of the Bible thought they were. Anepsios is the Greek word for cousin. Clearly the words are different, and when cousins are mentioned, the word used is cousin (fittingly enough). Nowhere in the bible is James referred to as Jesus cousin, but he is called Jesus Brother. The historicity of Jesus (fancy way of saying non-biblical) has a reference by the famed Jewish Historian Flavius Josephus (LINK 33) mentioning Jesus brother James, and it follows the biblical story that has James being stoned to death. In the 3rd century, the word Desposyni (LINK 34) meant a direct blood relative of Jesus. Bishop Judah Kyriakos (LINK 35), the last Jewish Bishop of Jerusalem (around 135 A.D. roughly), was the great-grandson of Jude, Jesus brother. 100 years after Jesus walked the earth, people thought he still had blood relatives living. It was a non-issue for early Christians; Jesus had brothers.

[Nick_United]

Originally Posted by ExistenceNow

Yikes, man. That's awful.

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

Yep that's a great example of its divisiveness. Sorry to hear that.

Yeah, definitely left a sour taste in my mouth regarding organized religion.

[TwoStep2888]

Originally Posted by smb41

On the topic of abortion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQcVXhGgxI

lol

Originally Posted by cazzie34

I watched the first two minutes...would he (or you) charge women who get an abortion with murder in the first degree?

I saw Ben Shapiro in the title and x'ed out the tab

[FromTheMorning]

Funny this thread popped up today. My dad just picked up The Faith Of Christopher Hitchens from the library. Should be an interesting discussion when he's done.

[Route_2]

Do you believers ever think about how what you now believe depends a lot on where in the world you happened to be born? I.E., that there was a lot of chance involved?

[TwoStep2888]

Hitchens was an interesting person

[coldengrey12]

Originally Posted by TwoStep2888

Hitchens was an interesting person

I passionately disagreed with him on a number of things, but he was an eloquent bastard who argued his points well.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by TwoStep2888

Hitchens was an interesting person

Didn't agree with him on every front (most though). But every sentence that came out of his mouth was so well thought out and had so much substance. Could watch him speak for hours on end.

[Climb2safety]

Originally Posted by Route_2

Do you believers ever think about how what you now believe depends a lot on where in the world you happened to be born? I.E., that there was a lot of chance involved?

Faith is a gift for sure.

[junior94]

Originally Posted by smb41

On the topic of abortion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQcVXhGgxI

holy mother of god... that kid (yes, KID) is absolutely frightening, as is the majority of the comments I just skimmed down the page. To see someone that young, and already has an iron clad and razor sharp steadfastness in every single syllable he's saying, it just makes me weep.

just the fact alone of how unequivocally he equates abortion to slavery in the "argument" he's making... this kid's like Karl Rove and Sean Hannity's fucking wet dream.

[FromTheMorning]

One of my favorite Hitch clips. Relevant to the morality discussion too.
https://youtu.be/X--lX3cQMJ8

[grace2]

Originally Posted by junior94

actually to get truly accurate, strictly speaking, EVERYONE is agnostic. Because being agnostic simply means "you don't know". And since one of the few things in this universe we can 100% guarantee is that nobody KNOWS for a fact if there's a god, agnostics the lot of us.


But it certainly seems to be a generational thing at this point. like pretty much 40-or-below (at least), it seems less and less are really diving hard into ANY sort of organized religion. But a person can do that of course and still wholeheartedly believe in god.

nobody can know there is a god. and nobody can know there is not a god.

i identify as an atheist, but certainly can't know for certain there is no god.

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

Born and raised Catholic. Ditched it about 5 years ago now and am an atheist now.

I think in general that religion is useless and frankly detrimental to the well being of the world. It's tribal and divisive, it justifies killing people for practicing a different religion or none at all, and it suffocates social and scientific progress.

well said, however, i don't think any religion promotes or justifies hate or killing. people's misinterpretation of religion does.

i also think it suffocates scientific progress. rather than discovering and learning facts about the great, it feels easier to assume somebody in the sky made it.

[grace2]

Originally Posted by Nick_United

Jumping back to my ex-girlfriend, her pastor father and mother wrote her a letter, which I read, that basically said they would never support our relationship because I was a "non-believer" and that she needed to think about that in regards to her place in heaven and her spiritual journey.

sorry to hear about that.

just recently, i'd been seeing a girl for about 8 or 9 months and she decided not to continue seeing me based strictly on the fact that i was an atheist. she respected my beliefs, but didn't feel she would be fulfilled in a relationship unless it was centered around her Christian beliefs and values and she could move closer towards God with her significant other.

i do understand her reasoning, even if it doesn't match up to mine, but it really sucked because i really liked her and she really liked me too.

[grace2]

Originally Posted by TwoStep2888

Hitchens was an interesting person

he was a pretty well spoken guy and i usually agreed with his take on things regarding religion.

he was literally drunk all the time.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by Climb2safety

Faith is a gift for sure.

"Faith is the permission religious people give one another to believe something when reason fails"

We're held accountable by common sense in every field with the exception of religion. To hold any water at all our claims have to be supported by good evidence. But not with God. Why is that?

[Tiduwho]

Originally Posted by Nick_United

I definitely lean this way as well. If religion works for you and you use it for good then more power to you. But if it makes you judgemental and only accepting of certain people, I cannot get behind that.

Jumping back to my ex-girlfriend, her pastor father and mother wrote her a letter, which I read, that basically said they would never support our relationship because I was a "non-believer" and that she needed to think about that in regards to her place in heaven and her spiritual journey.

I had one of those back in high school.

Did they use the words "unequally yoked" by any chance?