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Old 01-21-2010, 01:21 PM   #2521
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Re: why public health care will suck

Breaking: Looks like Pelosi doesn't have the House votes to pass the Senate version of ObamaCare.

Back to square 1. This is very good.
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  • Old 01-21-2010, 01:29 PM   #2522
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Lower taxes have nothing to do with healthcare. And if you think people stop hiding their money because tax rates are lower, you're living on neptune.
    Do you ever know what you're talking about? :lol :lol :lol

    I'll take the word of an real expert as opposed to an Internet expert.

    http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-g...t/reagtxct.htm

    Quote:
    The Reagan tax cuts, like similar measures enacted in the 1920s and 1960s, showed that reducing excessive tax rates stimulates growth, reduces tax avoidance, and can increase the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich.
    http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/wm327.cfm

    Quote:
    2) The rich pay more when incentives to hide income are reduced.

    The tax cuts of the 1920s
    The share of the tax burden paid by the rich rose dramatically as tax rates were reduced. The share of the tax burden borne by the rich (those making $50,000 and up in those days) climbed from 44.2 percent in 1921 to 78.4 percent in 1928.

    The Kennedy tax cuts
    Just as happened in the 1920s, the share of the income tax burden borne by the rich increased following the tax cuts. Tax collections from those making over $50,000 per year climbed by 57 percent between 1963 and 1966, while tax collections from those earning below $50,000 rose 11 percent. As a result, the rich saw their portion of the income tax burden climb from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.

    The Reagan tax cuts
    The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.
    When taxes are lower, people hide less money. Fact.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:13 PM   #2523
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    Do you ever know what you're talking about? :lol :lol :lol

    I'll take the word of an real expert as opposed to an Internet expert.

    http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-g...t/reagtxct.htm

    http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/wm327.cfm

    When taxes are lower, people hide less money. Fact.
    An opinion peice from the Heritage organization (whose sole mission is to lower taxes) does not count as evidence that people hide less money when tax rates are lower. None of this proves that people hide less money. All it shows is that the percetanage of taxes paid increased.

    You can throw the 1920s out because the tax rates were crazily different.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:16 PM   #2524
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Im fine with portable plans, not with buying over state lines.

    why not? I've never heard a good argument against.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:19 PM   #2525
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    An opinion peice from the Heritage organization (whose sole mission is to lower taxes) does not count as evidence that people hide less money when tax rates are lower. None of this proves that people hide less money. All it shows is that the percetanage of taxes paid increased.

    You can throw the 1920s out because the tax rates were crazily different.
    It's not an opinion piece, it's from a fucking book. What about the other site??? You know, the goverment sponsored site? Are they liars too????
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:25 PM   #2526
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    It's not an opinion piece, it's from a fucking book. What about the other site??? You know, the goverment sponsored site? Are they liars too????
    It is taking you this long to catch on?
    If you disagree with Brian you are either bat-shit crazy, a liar or delusional.
    Take your pick.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:30 PM   #2527
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    why not? I've never heard a good argument against.
    I posted this yesterday in the other thread. basically, insurance companies will all just headquarter themselves in the state with the least amount of regulations. Robocall companies and network-marketing companies all do this now. And states will be bending over backwards to deregulate in order to attract the tax income.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:35 PM   #2528
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    I posted this yesterday in the other thread. basically, insurance companies will all just headquarter themselves in the state with the least amount of regulations. Robocall companies and network-marketing companies all do this now. And states will be bending over backwards to deregulate in order to attract the tax income.

    Hmmm, never thought of it that way. That is a good point.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:36 PM   #2529
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Hmmm, never thought of it that way. That is a good point.
    If there are federal regulations, it won't matter what state you're in. (ie pre-existing conditions).
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:37 PM   #2530
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mandy18 View Post
    It is taking you this long to catch on?
    If you disagree with Brian you are either bat-shit crazy, a liar or delusional.
    Take your pick.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    It's not an opinion piece, it's from a fucking book. What about the other site??? You know, the goverment sponsored site? Are they liars too????
    Open that link from the "government sponsored" site. Look at the names of who was in that committee. And then find their party affiliation. Hint: they're all Republicans. Hmmm, wonder why the study came out that way?

    Could it be that the Republican chair chooses the economist, in this case, a supply-sider who later wrote articles for the ultraconservative National Review defending Reagan's policies? Hmmm.....
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:37 PM   #2531
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    If there are federal regulations, it won't matter what state you're in. (ie pre-existing conditions).

    Then why do Credit card companies operate out of just a handfull of states?
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:38 PM   #2532
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Open that link from the "government sponsored" site. Look at the names of who was in that committee. And then find their party affiliation. Hint: they're all Republicans. Hmmm, wonder why the study came out that way?

    Could it be that the Republican chair chooses the economist, in this case, a supply-sider who later wrote articles for the ultraconservative National Review defending Reagan's policies? Hmmm.....

    Pretty sick burn here
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:38 PM   #2533
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    If there are federal regulations, it won't matter what state you're in. (ie pre-existing conditions).
    But that all depends. Strong federal regs would have to get through congress without getting watered down, whch as we know is next to impossible, PI would just lobby states to create loopholes, promising a lucrative relocation in exchange for favorable laws.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:39 PM   #2534
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Open that link from the "government sponsored" site. Look at the names of who was in that committee. And then find their party affiliation. Hint: they're all Republicans. Hmmm, wonder why the study came out that way?

    Could it be that the Republican chair chooses the economist, in this case, a supply-sider who later wrote articles for the ultraconservative National Review defending Reagan's policies? Hmmm.....
    I didn't care enough to look at the links or really even read what you two were disagreeing about in full. I wasn't commenting on the study - just how you react to anything on this board.

    I was *this* close to editing my first response to state that if you disagree with Brian you're either bat-shit crazy, a liar, delusional OR a Republican, which by Brian's definition is all 3. You would have completely proved my point since your come-back was "it was written by a Republican!"
    Why didn't I??????????????????????????
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:46 PM   #2535
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Open that link from the "government sponsored" site. Look at the names of who was in that committee. And then find their party affiliation. Hint: they're all Republicans. Hmmm, wonder why the study came out that way?

    Could it be that the Republican chair chooses the economist, in this case, a supply-sider who later wrote articles for the ultraconservative National Review defending Reagan's policies? Hmmm.....
    :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

    Again, numbers to you are like words to Charlie. How about the IMF??? Is that another neo-con think tank designed to destroy progressive ideals?

    http://www.uschambermagazine.com/art...ng-the-tax-gap

    Quote:
    There are two ways to reduce the tax gap. The first is to lower tax rates and simplify the tax code. This approach is so strongly supported by academic research that even the International Monetary Fund confirmed that "countries with relatively low tax rates, fewer laws and regulations, and a well-established rule of law tend to have smaller shadow economies."
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:47 PM   #2536
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    National Review owns.

    Anyway, I think this horrific thing is pretty much dead.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:49 PM   #2537
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Then why do Credit card companies operate out of just a handfull of states?
    There was just a bill signed for the CC companies. I'm not disagreeing that it could happen. However, this isn't a state health reform bill. It's a federal healthcare bill. There'd be nowhere to "hide".

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Pretty sick burn here
    Not at all. First, the numbers don't lie. Second, what I stated was 100% a fact. The idea that Brian doesn't like a source and tries to discredit it, doesn't make it true.

    For example, you can hate Sarah Palin and say that she's a liar. But, if you ask her what 2 + 2 equals and she says four, she's not lying. She may have gotten lucky, but she's not lying. ;)
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:51 PM   #2538
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    There was just a bill signed for the CC companies. I'm not disagreeing that it could happen. However, this isn't a state health reform bill. It's a federal healthcare bill. There'd be nowhere to "hide".

    Right, but the fed regs won't cover everything. Just as they don't with credit cards. there will certainly be differences in state regs and states will try to attract insurance co's with lax regs.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:53 PM   #2539
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Right, but the fed regs won't cover everything. Just as they don't with credit cards. there will certainly be differences in state regs and states will try to attract insurance co's with lax regs.
    I think that could be worked out. Not allowing to purchase over state lines is pretty ridiculous even with that possibility.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:54 PM   #2540
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    I think that could be worked out. Not allowing to purchase over state lines is pretty ridiculous even with that possibility.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you. Just think Brian's point here should def be taken under consideration.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 02:55 PM   #2541
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you. Just think Brian's point here should def be taken under consideration.
    I agree. It would do no good to pass something with such a large loophole.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:10 PM   #2542
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    There was just a bill signed for the CC companies. I'm not disagreeing that it could happen. However, this isn't a state health reform bill. It's a federal healthcare bill. There'd be nowhere to "hide".

    Not at all. First, the numbers don't lie. Second, what I stated was 100% a fact. The idea that Brian doesn't like a source and tries to discredit it, doesn't make it true.

    For example, you can hate Sarah Palin and say that she's a liar. But, if you ask her what 2 + 2 equals and she says four, she's not lying. She may have gotten lucky, but she's not lying. ;)
    Yes, it was. You got owned. Its ok, you didnt look at the study. Nowhere does it say people will stop hiding their money if tax rates are lower. Neither does the IMF section, which you posted below.

    dont get the Palin thing. Maybe Im as dumb as she is.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rconverse View Post
    :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

    Again, numbers to you are like words to Charlie. How about the IMF??? Is that another neo-con think tank designed to destroy progressive ideals?

    http://www.uschambermagazine.com/art...ng-the-tax-gap
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:18 PM   #2543
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    Im telling you, there will be loopholes. There are federal regulations now for NM companies, which they get around by going to Utah and Arizona. I know many of these big network marketing types, some personally. Hell, I still do some work for them now. 95 percent of them are complete scams. They make up some bullshit product like "self development training videos" that they sell. Its all show. Its just so they have some type of product. That way, the SEC cant come down on them for a while. Since Utah's laws are more lax, the leaders just rack up as much cash as they can and either get shut down or fold the company before the feds crack down.

    Remember, congress JUST passed this credit card bill (which essentially does nothing) after giving CC companies 20-odd years to rape their customers. I cant imagine what HC companies could do while Congress bickers about regulation.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:25 PM   #2544
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbianca1982 View Post
    Yes, it was. You got owned. Its ok, you didnt look at the study. Nowhere does it say people will stop hiding their money if tax rates are lower. Neither does the IMF section, which you posted below.

    dont get the Palin thing. Maybe Im as dumb as she is.
    Quote:
    There are two ways to reduce the tax gap. The first is to lower tax rates and simplify the tax code. This approach is so strongly supported by academic research that even the International Monetary Fund confirmed that "countries with relatively low tax rates, fewer laws and regulations, and a well-established rule of law tend to have smaller shadow economies."
    Shadow economies = tax gap.

    Three separate sources. You are certifiable. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:32 PM   #2545
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    Roger, did you get burned?
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:32 PM   #2546
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AJF_41 View Post
    Roger, did you get burned?
    Cooked like a Thanksgiving turkey.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:35 PM   #2547
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AJF_41 View Post
    Roger, did you get burned?
    I don't know. Decide for yourself. :lol :lol :lol
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:44 PM   #2548
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    This "discussion" is over. :lol :lol

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_0306-44.pdf

    Quote:
    Tax Reforms and Rate Cuts Would Reduce Tax Gap
    High tax burdens are the main cause of tax evasion.
    Writing for the International Monetary Fund, Schneider
    and a colleague explained that “macroeconomic and
    microeconomic modeling studies based on data for several
    countries suggest that the major driving forces behind the
    size and growth of the shadow economy are an increasing
    burden of tax and social security payments . . . the bigger
    the difference between the total cost of labor in the official
    economy and the after-tax earnings from work, the greater
    the incentive for employers and employees to avoid this
    difference and participate in the shadow economy.”4 These
    findings are echoed by researchers at the World Bank, the
    Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    ,
    and elsewhere.5
    I can't imagine anyone arguing something that they've been proven wrong about over and over agian, but I know you won't let me down. :lol :lol :lol :lol
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:47 PM   #2549
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    So apparently they're stripping this bill down a lot (basically just to the uncontroversial stuff) and sending it back through the House and the Senate. Will certainly be health care reform, but a shadow of its former self.
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    Old 01-21-2010, 04:55 PM   #2550
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    Re: why public health care will suck

    house wont apss the senate bill

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100121/..._care_overhaul
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