The Lillywhite Sessions - 20 Years Later

[Cptn. Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Dodo36

It's a lilting, meandering, directionless arrangement with rough draft lyrics. The circulating version was lacking a core band member and had no mixing to speak of done to it, but if you hear completeness... Musically, nearly every other track else is more polished as far as the arrangement and prelim mixing.

People like the song because of the potential it had once it was finished, but that never happened. We have a rough demo that never went anywhere.

None of the album was finished, but from a songwriting stand point, MM sounds like a complete thought. It’s not meandering. Progressive, yes, but not meandering. And the lyrics are way more coherent and interesting than half the other songs.

And again, people who like the song like it because it’s a good song. Maybe there’s some people who like it because they think it has potential to be something more. But if you like a demo of a song, you’re most likely going to like the full song. We will see if they release the Busted Stuff version one day.

[Cptn. Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by blumathu

I know they did scratch tracks for JTR and Sweet Up and Down with Harris. Did they do Monkey Man?

Go track down the Riffs & Records (or visa versa) podcast by Matt Norlander. He did an interview with Steve Harris (and multiple with Lillywhite) and they talk about it there.

Originally Posted by eggsrsweet

If you haven’t listened to Norlander’s interviews with Steve Harris and Steve Lillywhite about tLWS and Busted Stuff, GO LISTEN TO THEM NOW. They are incredible and really unearth a lot of mysteries as to why tLWS failed that nobody knew about before.

If I remember correctly, I’m not sure if they even recorded JTR or Monkey Man during the Busted Stuff sessions — and if they did, they were abandoned pretty quickly because the band wasn’t feeling either of those songs at that time.

According to Steve’s memory 20 years later, all three were done but they all agreed to cut them from the album, and no one seemed to argue that decision. But they were finished songs, I remember Norlander was asking him questions about those songs specifically getting released on a Busted Stuff remaster, Harris claims he hasn’t heard from management about such a release but it seems like a possibility.

[Joedw8]

Originally Posted by C.S.

Man, I couldn't disagree more. Scrapping this album was the biggest mistake the band ever made and nothing they've done since has come close to making up for it. I'm glad as hell that people took it upon themselves to do what the band was unwilling to do.

Remember, the Everyday decision had already been made and sold, so I don't buy the argument that had the sessions not leaked the band would have gone on a different trajectory. No, I think if they hadn't been leaked we would never have heard these songs in the studio, BS or otherwise.

I agree. Not finishing it was the bands biggest mistake, and nothing compares. Definitely a good thing, imagine a world without LWS or BS... yeah it was a good thing.

[Joedw8]

Originally Posted by Cptn. Monkeyman

Go track down the Riffs & Records (or visa versa) podcast by Matt Norlander. He did an interview with Steve Harris (and multiple with Lillywhite) and they talk about it there.



According to Steve’s memory 20 years later, all three were done but they all agreed to cut them from the album, and no one seemed to argue that decision. But they were finished songs, I remember Norlander was asking him questions about those songs specifically getting released on a Busted Stuff remaster, Harris claims he hasn’t heard from management about such a release but it seems like a possibility.

I mean why wouldn't they?? Granny came out with UTTAD remaster so it would make sense...

[Cptn. Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Joedw8

I mean why wouldn't they?? Granny came out with UTTAD remaster so it would make sense...

Aside from a new LP and a BTCS remaster, this is my most desired release by DMB. Remaster Busted Stuff, press it to vinyl, and release the three bonus tracks. Also would like a Some Devil remaster with Cigarette Lit.

[eggsrsweet]

Originally Posted by Cptn. Monkeyman

According to Steve’s memory 20 years later, all three were done but they all agreed to cut them from the album, and no one seemed to argue that decision. But they were finished songs, I remember Norlander was asking him questions about those songs specifically getting released on a Busted Stuff remaster, Harris claims he hasn’t heard from management about such a release but it seems like a possibility.

Okay, yeah. That sounds familiar. It’s been awhile since I sat down and listened to those podcasts so I couldn’t remember the exact details. I definitely remember Norlander asking about those songs though.

I wish Norlander would’ve interviewed the whole band for that little series (or at least Dave) to get their take on it all these years later. I really wonder how they must feel knowing there’s a good handful of people who consider tLWS to be DMB’s best album.

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by Dodo36

It's a lilting, meandering, directionless arrangement with rough draft lyrics. The circulating version was lacking a core band member and had no mixing to speak of done to it, but if you hear completeness... Musically, nearly every other track else is more polished as far as the arrangement and prelim mixing.

People like the song because of the potential it had once it was finished, but that never happened. We have a rough demo that never went anywhere.

While I agree it doesn’t have a polished sound to it, it has enough strength in the lyrics, and arrangement to be finished with some final mixing and mastering. I’d probably do another vocal take, and it could have used a little of that Lillywhite layer flare, but it was good enough to pass as final.As for Boyd… Honestly, in the 20 years I’ve listened to the Lillywhite Sessions this is the first time I’ve given any thought to him not being on the track. Plenty of songs he didn’t play on, or in some instances would play but have minimal contributions (same with Roi in regards to the latter). Best of What’s Around, Pay For What You Get, Let You Down, Proudest Monkey (he would pluck a bit when they played it live), Smooth Rider (studio track doesn’t have Roi either), Out of My Hands, Steady As We Go…

By the time they recorded Big Whiskey, Boyd was falling further and further away from the band, so I wouldn’t really count any tunes post-Stand Up. But it was certainly not unusual for Boyd or Roi to contribute little to a track or nothing.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Cptn. Monkeyman

None of the album was finished, but from a songwriting stand point, MM sounds like a complete thought. It’s not meandering. Progressive, yes, but not meandering. And the lyrics are way more coherent and interesting than half the other songs.

And again, people who like the song like it because it’s a good song. Maybe there’s some people who like it because they think it has potential to be something more. But if you like a demo of a song, you’re most likely going to like the full song. We will see if they release the Busted Stuff version one day.

In my opinion, it's a great riff, but lyrics are really really bad, and the song just doesn't have anywhere to go. Would love if they could reincorporate parts of it into something new though.

That intro is as DMB a sound as you can get. Off beats, cool riff, Roi and Carter really playing off each other.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by C.S.

Man, I couldn't disagree more. Scrapping this album was the biggest mistake the band ever made and nothing they've done since has come close to making up for it. I'm glad as hell that people took it upon themselves to do what the band was unwilling to do.

Remember, the Everyday decision had already been made and sold, so I don't buy the argument that had the sessions not leaked the band would have gone on a different trajectory. No, I think if they hadn't been leaked we would never have heard these songs in the studio, BS or otherwise.

I 100% agree. Musically, and given we only have about 75% of whatever the finished product might have well been, it's brilliant and still sounds that way. Dave could have finished the vocals and remaining lyrics rather than scrap it completely. It was going to be Led Zeppelin IV for this band. The opus, the pinnacle, the masterpiece.. and then anything they did after would just be bonus.

I mean if we would have had the LWS in final form in the fall of 2000 as planned. They toured off it that fall, 2001-2002 and THEN we got Everyday. I think we would have accepted it. Stand Up can never be forgiven. It's a bastardization of the music this band was known for. But It likely would never have happened if LWS officially came out.

[Joedw8]

Originally Posted by Cptn. Monkeyman

Aside from a new LP and a BTCS remaster, this is my most desired release by DMB. Remaster Busted Stuff, press it to vinyl, and release the three bonus tracks. Also would like a Some Devil remaster with Cigarette Lit.

Now we're talking!

[KevinTH]

I didn’t get the impression they fully laid down Sweet Up and Down or JTR for the Busted Stuff sessions. Been a while since listening to the interview, but I thought Harris had some memory of them screwing around with those tunes a couple times, but never went anywhere.

[ToySoldier#34]

If they had worked on SUAD during BS I'd be interested to know if they played around with the form

[LetYouDown22]

Didn’t SL have them play SUAD a crazy amount of times during tLWS that they just grew tired of it?

Not the biggest loss though. JTR was the biggest miss for me on Busted Stuff by far. Otherwise I honestly love Busted Stuff as an album.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by LetYouDown22

Didn’t SL have them play SUAD a crazy amount of times during tLWS that they just grew tired of it?

Not the biggest loss though. JTR was the biggest miss for me on Busted Stuff by far. Otherwise I honestly love Busted Stuff as an album.

Agree with this, JTR not being there will always be tough to swallow.

[C.S.]

Originally Posted by TerrapinMonkey

It was going to be Led Zeppelin IV for this band.

Well put. It's the worst case of musical blue-balls ever and will never be relieved.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by LetYouDown22

Didn’t SL have them play SUAD a crazy amount of times during tLWS that they just grew tired of it?

Not the biggest loss though. JTR was the biggest miss for me on Busted Stuff by far. Otherwise I honestly love Busted Stuff as an album.

It's strange to me that it ended up on the Santana album with just Dave and Carter with whoever was in the Santana recording sessions. They version sounds great. But why did they give it to Santana? I assume it's why the band never did their own official studio version.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by LetYouDown22

Didn’t SL have them play SUAD a crazy amount of times during tLWS that they just grew tired of it?

Not the biggest loss though. JTR was the biggest miss for me on Busted Stuff by far. Otherwise I honestly love Busted Stuff as an album.

I think so. I believe they played it to death.

[Beauford3641]

Originally Posted by TerrapinMonkey

It's strange to me that it ended up on the Santana album with just Dave and Carter with whoever was in the Santana recording sessions. They version sounds great. But why did they give it to Santana? I assume it's why the band never did their own official studio version.

That I believe was recorded during the Supernatural sessions. And that album was released in like 1999. So it definitely predates the LWS

[Dodo36]

Originally Posted by TerrapinMonkey

It's strange to me that it ended up on the Santana album with just Dave and Carter with whoever was in the Santana recording sessions. They version sounds great. But why did they give it to Santana? I assume it's why the band never did their own official studio version.

That's somewhat of an oversimplification. It was put as a bonus track for the Legacy reissue of Supernatural under one of the post-production working titles as "Rain Down On Me." The 'Who's That Writing? / John the Revelator' got shoe-horned into the song because Carlos started singing it over that section, Dave picked up on it and they fully recorded it. It wasn't as strong of a finished product as "Love Of My Life," so Dave and Carter took it back to the band.

I've never looked into what the copyright byline is, but ownership of the core song is probably split between Carlos, Carter, & David J. Since it was functionally gone from the band's live rotation for a few years by that point, I'll bet Dave just said 'sure' when Santana's people asked. It's had no more than 8 performances per tour since 2006, and truly it only hit 8 twice.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dodo36

That's somewhat of an oversimplification. It was put as a bonus track for the Legacy reissue of Supernatural under one of the post-production working titles as "Rain Down On Me." The 'Who's That Writing? / John the Revelator' got shoe-horned into the song because Carlos started singing it over that section, Dave picked up on it and they fully recorded it. It wasn't as strong of a finished product as "Love Of My Life," so Dave and Carter took it back to the band.

I've never looked into what the copyright byline is, but ownership of the core song is probably split between Carlos, Carter, & David J. Since it was functionally gone from the band's live rotation for a few years by that point, I'll bet Dave just said 'sure' when Santana's people asked. It's had no more than 8 performances per tour since 2006, and truly it only hit 8 twice.

Timeline wise this would make sense! Legacy originally was released what in 1999? So that would make total sense if Dave had that song ready for the LWS as an idea since it didn't get used for the original Supernatural album. Got it!

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Beauford3641

That I believe was recorded during the Supernatural sessions. And that album was released in like 1999. So it definitely predates the LWS

Thank you! Those years are quite some time back now. I just forgot timelines on all that! And with the surprise, at least to me, that there was a studio version of "Rain Down on Me" released with the updated version of Supernatural, it all just kind of ran together.

[TerrapinMonkey]

20 plus years later, I think songs like Busted Stuff, SUAD, Monkey Man, were close but no cigar. Busted Stuff of course was redone, but it lost its soul in that session. Not the same song by any stretch. I think the one we have on LWS is just such an early raw take, it's hard to recapture that magic. Neil Young says the first or second take is always the best once you have it down.

SUAD is a great live song, but it kind of doesn't have any room to go anywhere on the LWS version. Unless they would shorten it way down to like 3 minutes, which would also be hard, it kind of hits a receptive plateau. It is one of my favorite live songs of all time from that era though. Not so much 2007 and on, though I think the last 2 years it's been better! Better pacing, less crunchy electric, Dave seems to have some lyrics that he likes.

[Joedw8]

Originally Posted by TerrapinMonkey

20 plus years later, I think songs like Busted Stuff, SUAD, Monkey Man, were close but no cigar. Busted Stuff of course was redone, but it lost its soul in that session. Not the same song by any stretch. I think the one we have on LWS is just such an early raw take, it's hard to recapture that magic. Neil Young says the first or second take is always the best once you have it down.

SUAD is a great live song, but it kind of doesn't have any room to go anywhere on the LWS version. Unless they would shorten it way down to like 3 minutes, which would also be hard, it kind of hits a receptive plateau. It is one of my favorite live songs of all time from that era though. Not so much 2007 and on, though I think the last 2 years it's been better! Better pacing, less crunchy electric, Dave seems to have some lyrics that he likes.

No way my friend! Monkey Man could have been a masterpiece (if it isn't already considered such).

[Dodo36]

Originally Posted by Joedw8

No way my friend! Monkey Man could have been a masterpiece (if it isn't already considered such).

It's not considered such. It's better than Be Yourself and Plastic Girl, but masterpiece is overshooting it a bit.

[TerrapinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Joedw8

No way my friend! Monkey Man could have been a masterpiece (if it isn't already considered such).

We can disagree.