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Old 07-31-2002, 01:57 AM   #1
Joe M.
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Trading Tips, Rules & Help

Trading Tips, Rules & Help

Hey AntsMarching.org members! This here is your best guide for trading and starting your collection of the many awesome DMB shows that are available to trade. These tips, rules, and help are pretty standard for trading with other bands also.

The first thing to understand about trading is that it is a privilege we are given from the band and management, and is also in thanks of the tapers. In order to retain this privilege it is important we follow the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy. Probably one of the biggest things to note is that you should NEVER pay for a taped show (unless it’s an official release from DMB). Even if you don’t have any shows to start with, there are ways set up for you to get started.

Now you get to start. You want to get your first show and start to build your wonderful collection of music to enjoy and to share with others. To get your very first show you do a process called ‘Blanks and Postage’ (or B&P for short).

B&P (Blanks and Postage)
This is a process that allows a new trader who has a small or non-existent collection to receive shows whether it be as a one time event or in order to begin a extensive collection of shows. The overall process is, in return for sending the correct amount of blank discs with a self-addressed and self-stamped envelope, you receive the shows that the B&P’er was kind enough to help you with. In a B&P, the trader that burns the shows is doing the B&P process with no profit to himself or herself other then the gratification of helping the community out and building friendships and potential traders down the road. You should never have to include anything extra in your B&P such as extra discs or cash or anything.

You should watch for B&P’s to be offered. It is sometimes considered rude to ask for them. If the show you are looking for is not being offered, take up another B&P offer to get yourself a show so that you can trade for the show you are looking for. If the show you wish to get is from a performance from the latest or current tour, just continue to watch the board and B&P's will be offered. Do NOT request a show before 2 weeks following the performance. This is considered extremely rude. Please read below on more information about the 2 week rule. Once you find a B&P offered and you follow the given rules by the poster, you should be contacted via email (or some other form of communication) to set up the B&P.

+So what will I need?
Your going to need a couple things in order to do a B&P. The following supplies can be picked up at any home office retailer (OfficeMax, Staples, etc.).

1. An outer envelope. This can be any envelope capable of holding the rest of your matierals being mailed out. Normally 9" x 12" Brown Clasp Envelopes are used.
2. The returning envelope. This can be any envelope that is padded in some way that can hold your returning CD’s. Normally 6" x 9" Self-Sealing Bubble-Lined Envelopes are used.
3. CD’s. The type of CD is really up to you (they most be CD-R’s not CD-RW’s). There are differences in quality in discs. The preferred CD type for trading is Sony, TDK, Fuji, or Memorex. One thing they DO need to be is the 80 minute CD’s (many shows are longer and need to be on the 80 minute CD’s). They should also be all speed if possible.
4. CD Sleeves or Jewel Cases. Your CD’s should be keep in some sort of protection. CD sleeves are light and will reduce your postage amount compared to Jewel Cases.
5. Standard index cards or some sort of paper to be included into the package for reference information.

(Image here)

Now that you have everything you need it’s time to get it completed.

1. Take the correct number of blank CD’s, as specified by the B&P’er, and place them individually into the CD Sleeves (or Jewel Cases).
2. Take the padded/bubble envelope and put YOUR address as the “Mail To” address, and the return address is that of the B&P’er. (This is the enveloped coming from the B&P’er to you.)
3. Take the blank CD’s that are in the sleeves and place them into the padded/bubble envelope.
4. The note (on the note card). Here you should write down the show you have set up to receive and your email address or however you were communicating with the B&P’er. Also this is your chance to mention how grateful you are for the offer and your chance to build a friendship. Once you are finished place the card into the padded/bubble envelope.
5. DO NOT SEAL THE PADDED/BUBBLE ENVELOPE! If you do this the B&P’er will not be able to remove your discs and burn them.
6. Take the outer envelope and write the B&P’ers address on the outside in the “Mail To” position and your address in the return position. Then put the unsealed padded/bubble envelope into the outer envelope. (Do not seal outer envelope)
7. It is now time to mail them. This part is very important. The easiest way to do this part is to go to your local post office and have it done infront of you. It is possible for you to do it all at home if you have a scaled and the correct amount of postage. A calculator is provided by the postal service at http://postcalc.usps.gov/ . But if you do it the easier way, take both packages to the post office. First have the padded/bubble envelope (with the CD’s and everything still inside) weighed and STAMPED. It is VERY important that the padded/bubble envelope have stamps on it and NOT metered postage because postal regulations require that metered postage be used on the date issued, and only for traffic from the originating city. In other words, they are only valid from that post office, on that date. After you have had the padded/bubble envelope stamped, place it (still unsealed) into the outer envelope. Now have the outer envelope weighed with the padded/bubble envelope inside. This can me metered as long as your mailing it at that time (which you should or are).
8. Send an email (or however you are communicating) to the B&P’er and let he or she know that you have mailed the package.

Now just wait a couple weeks or so and you should receive your first show. Once you have received the show you should email the sender and let he or she know you have received the shows. You now have enough to trade or you can get a couple more B&P’s if needed. Enjoy!

Trading
Trading is the primary way for getting shows. In order to trade you must have a CD burner. There are trades always happening on the board. It is between 2 people who set up an “equal” trade and pick a date to send on. An “equal” trade is a 1:1 disc ratio. There is never a case where one show counts more then another. Trading is pretty easy as long as it is done correctly.

1. Find someone to trade with and exchange list of shows and contact information.
2. Determine how large of a trade is going to be done (if not already decided) and each trader decides which shows will be traded. Also determine the format that the shows will be traded in. As in Audio or SHN. (More info on this below)
3. Once the shows are picked by each trader go over the shows and note any flaws in the shows, which include skips, jumps, cut songs, TAO (Track at Once) or poor quality.
4. Once the shows to be traded is agreed upon, talk about the type of discs you will be using and any kind of individual rules you may have. (ie. No writing on discs, including set lists, etc.)
5. Set up a send date. This is the date both traders will mail the shows.
6. Once you receive your shows let the other trader know that you have received them.

The difference/relation/definitions of SHN or Audio Discs.
There are 2 different formats of trading. SHN (sort for Shorten) and Audio. SHN is described in GREAT detail in the downloading forum as it is thee format of internet transfer (currently). I would recommend you check out the FAQ about shn's in the Download Forum if you are interested in trading of pure shows.

Audio: Audio Discs are what they sound like. Audio. These are the kind of trades where you can take the discs from your mailbox and place it into you car cd player or a boombox and it will play. You can create an Audio disc in 2 ways. One is to have an audio disc already and to extract the tracks to your computer and then burn those tracks to a new cd (notice not from one CD to another; on-the-fly). The second way to make an audio disc is by taking SHNs and converting them to audio and then burning that audio to disc. Audio SHOULD NOT be converted to SHN.

SHNs: Are a file. So a SHN disc is like a DATA cd. When you trade in SHNs you normally get a cd with the shn files, the md5, and normally the source file. SHN disc preserve quality to the highest degree. Each copy is the same. There is no loss of "data". SHNs are good for archiving, pure trading, listening to on a computer only. SHN can be converted to audio and in turn make audio discs.

Tips/Rules for Trading
1. NEVER trade any MP3 sourced shows.
2. Communicating is the key to building friends and ensuring a successful trade.
3. Shows are only traded for other shows. Nothing else and always on a 1:1 basis
4. Do not send money or pay for shows.
5. Note ALL mistakes with shows BEFORE trading. Mistakes are fault of the provider if not mentioned ahead of send date.
6. When burning the discs to be traded they should not be burnt “On the Fly” (disc to disc) http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ which is from a cd-rom drive to a burner. The show should be extracted using Exact Audio Copy to the computer hard drive and then burnt to CD.
7. All packages should be padded to prevent disc damage in transfer and the discs should be individually placed in sleeves.
8. Agree to a send date on which the package(s) will be sent. Try to adhere to this agreement as much as you can. If for some reason you didn't send, let the other person know why and when you will be able to.
9. The sender should NOT write on the discs. Sticky notes should be attached to the individual discs and labeled with the show date and disc number.
10. Only trade DAO (Disc At Once) shows. This is when there is no 2-second silence between the tracks. You must set up your CD burner to do this. Do NOT record in TAO (Track At Once), which is with the 2-second gap.
11. Do not use the word “need” when looking for a show. This is very rude. Use the words “would like” or “want to find”.
12. Always obey the rules stated by the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy

Two-Week Rule:
ISOing (In Search Of) shows before 2 weeks is frowned upon and disrespectful to the tapers as they have lives as well and things to do that are possibly more important than converting a show ASAP. Also, even if the show is out, give it a little time to spread before requesting a B&P. They will come, please have some patience.

Trees
A "Tree" is a term for the process of spreading a new show to many people in a organized and speedy way. A tree is a large organized B&P. It all starts with normally one person (called the Seed) who has they show that will be spread. The first step in a Tree is the “Seed” will ask or select what are called “Branches” who will continue to spread the show. Then there are “Leaves” which are at the end of the tree and receive from the “Branches”. A certain amount of “Leaves” are assigned to each “Branch” and the “Seed” will decide which “Leave” the “Branch” will send to. The “Branches” will receive a copy of the show with a B+P from the “Seed”. The “Branches” will in turn B+P the show to their "Leaves". In some cases of shows that are in high demand an extra step is included to spread faster. They are called “Trunks” and are between the “Seed” and the “Branches”. “Trunks follow the same path as “Branches” would. The majority of people with me “Leaves” and will be informed who will contact them or who they should contact in order to do a B&P for the show.

Common Terms and Their Meanings
  • DAO : Disc At Once. This is the correct way shows should be. DAO is without the 2-second silence between tracks.
  • TAO : Track At Once. This is the incorrect way show should be burnt. TAO is with the 2-second silence between tracks.
  • ISO : In Search Of. This is used to request a show only when you have waited and watched for a show to be offered for awhile.
  • IEM : In Ear Monitor. These are recordings of the bands In Ear Monitors during the show. These are HIGHLY frowned upon and should not be traded. It is explicitly written so in the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy.
  • DSBD : Digital Sound Board Recording. Any of these that are before 1996 are ok. But anything there after is against the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy and should not be traded.
  • DAUD : Digital Audience Recording. This is a tapers recording from the audience during a performance. This is what is allowed by the taping policy to be traded.
  • AUD : Audience Recording. See DAUD.
  • MATRIX : A Mix of sources (IEM+DAUD, IEM+DSBD, DAUD+DSBD) These are against the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy and should not be traded.
  • .SHN : Shorten. A downloading file type and is discussed in the Downloading F.A.Q.
  • EAC : Exact Audio Copy. A program that rips "perfect" copies of audio CDs.
  • VCD or SVCD : (Video Compact Disc (Super)). These are video discs that can be played in a DVD player or on a computer. These are against the Dave Matthews Band Taping Policy and should not be traded.

AntsMarching.org has all the great trading resources you need. Check them out.
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  • Old 09-16-2002, 10:52 PM   #2
    trippingface
     
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    B+P's anyone?

    just wondering if any one wanted to do some B and P trading withme, cuz i dont have enough shows to start trading yet...
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    Old 09-21-2002, 04:55 PM   #3
    Ccronks
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    Hey Joe -

    just an FYI - I think that board is down or something, but the link does not work for me
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    Old 10-19-2002, 04:38 PM   #4
    Scuba Jeremy
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    On SVCD / DVD thing - there are a few perfectly tradable discs, including Van Ryper's and the R2T in store promo. Shouldn't some excemptions be made for shows recorded before DMB signed to RCA?
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    Old 10-19-2002, 06:11 PM   #5
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Scuba Jeremy
    On SVCD / DVD thing - there are a few perfectly tradable discs, including Van Ryper's and the R2T in store promo. Shouldn't some excemptions be made for shows recorded before DMB signed to RCA?
    It's easier to say they are not tradable (since 99.9% of them are not tradable) then to list and confuse peope that there are a few that are ok. You have to use common sense on what can be traded and what shouldn't be traded. That's all I can really say.
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    Old 05-24-2003, 01:50 AM   #6
    1800Help-Myself
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    Originally posted by Joe M.
    [*].SHN : Shorten. A downloading file type and is discussed in the Downloading F.A.Q.
    It really should be noted that SHN is not strictly for downloading. Lots of people trade SHN through the mail. It is highly recommended that you keep copies of SHNs you download on CD, rather than simply converting to WAV, burning an audio copy, and deleting the SHN. I recommend this because a lot of serious traders will only trade for SHN, and therefore it gives you more options.
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    Old 07-31-2003, 06:45 PM   #7
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    Re: Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    It really should be noted that SHN is not strictly for downloading. Lots of people trade SHN through the mail. It is highly recommended that you keep copies of SHNs you download on CD, rather than simply converting to WAV, burning an audio copy, and deleting the SHN. I recommend this because a lot of serious traders will only trade for SHN, and therefore it gives you more options.
    quick question:
    I've kept all the concerts I've downloaded from antsmarching.org on my computer in .shn format. I'm looking to start giving the shows out (offering a B&P) to those with slow internet connections, etc. Here's the question: Should I burn the discs to send in .shn format or in .wav format?

    Thanks one and all,
    Georgia Bean
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    Old 08-24-2003, 12:37 AM   #8
    1800Help-Myself
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    Either way, really. Give them a choice.
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    Old 09-11-2003, 07:17 PM   #9
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    where do you go to collect b&p
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    Old 10-14-2003, 02:00 PM   #10
    jtrdmb072100
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    ok ive got a problem. a kid sent me his b&p... but the envelope he sent me to send them back in he put as metered mail. so, does this mean i have to shell out the money for this kid to get his show? i kno its only a couple of bucks, but he didnt follow SIMPLE directions. HELP!
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    Old 01-27-2004, 06:12 PM   #11
    antsmrchng12
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    Re: B+P's anyone?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trippingface
    just wondering if any one wanted to do some B and P trading withme, cuz i dont have enough shows to start trading yet...
    I'D BE HAPPY TO DO a b&P --- email me @ antsmrchng12@aol.com--- Keep in mind that I am flight attendant so i am away for days at atime (if I dont get back the same day) But I have a few shows. talk to Y'all later!
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    Old 01-27-2004, 06:34 PM   #12
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    Re: B+P's anyone?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by antsmrchng12
    I'D BE HAPPY TO DO a b&P --- email me @ antsmrchng12@aol.com--- Keep in mind that I am flight attendant so i am away for days at atime (if I dont get back the same day) But I have a few shows. talk to Y'all later!
    uuuhh.... he posted that message in sept. 2002
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    Old 01-30-2004, 11:18 AM   #13
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    some resources as well:

    www.etree.org/postage.php for calculating your postage if you can't make it to the post office yourself.

    www.dmbalmanac.com for song lyrics to specific song versions, song length time, setlist scans, venue stats.

    www.mcnichol.com/bnp has a graphic representation of the b&p.

    (or www.etree.org/bnp/index.html which pulled the text and pics from the mcnichol page.)
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    Old 05-19-2004, 02:16 PM   #14
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Hey, before I get to my question I just wanted to say that this a great website. I have been to Nancies and the official, but this one is cool as well. I would like to do some B&Ps, but here's the thing, I'm in Iraq. I am looking for some shows from Dave and Tim's '99 tour (Pantages Theater in LA was my very first show), but I'm not sure how to go about finding people who can help. So that's why I'm asking you b/c you seem like the guy to ask. I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks and take care.

    Zach

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    Old 05-19-2004, 06:02 PM   #15
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zjs150
    Hey, before I get to my question I just wanted to say that this a great website. I have been to Nancies and the official, but this one is cool as well. I would like to do some B&Ps, but here's the thing, I'm in Iraq. I am looking for some shows from Dave and Tim's '99 tour (Pantages Theater in LA was my very first show), but I'm not sure how to go about finding people who can help. So that's why I'm asking you b/c you seem like the guy to ask. I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks and take care.

    Zach

    "Hands and feet are all alike"
    here's a list of all the people here who have it: http://www.antsmarching.org/tour/Use...hp?ShowID=1993

    you could always try posting and ISO in this forum as well.
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    Old 06-05-2004, 04:08 AM   #16
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    If I'm doing a trade in audio format can I rip the cd onto my computer as .aiff then burn onto the trade cd, or do I have to rip it using EAC? Is there a program like EAC for Mac OS X out there?

    Ryan
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    Old 07-24-2004, 08:32 AM   #17
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    How come you don't allow trading MP3 format? The band sells that format on their website.
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    Old 07-24-2004, 11:15 AM   #18
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bodine
    How come you don't allow trading MP3 format? The band sells that format on their website.
    cause mp3's suck. the quality is greatly reduced. i'd never buy mp3's off their site either, waste of money.
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    Old 08-04-2004, 12:51 PM   #19
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    What to do with a TAO show?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Joe M.
    10. Only trade DAO (Disc At Once) shows. This is when there is no 2-second silence between the tracks. You must set up your CD burner to do this. Do NOT record in TAO (Track At Once), which is with the 2-second gap.
    In the mail today I received a show I'd traded for, but as I went to play it I realized it had been burned with 2-second gaps between tracks. Is there a way I can remove those and burn myself a better copy? I really like the show but the gaps drive me crazy!

    Thanks for any help!
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    Old 08-04-2004, 01:39 PM   #20
    laron384
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    Re: What to do with a TAO show?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by redsoxiluv
    In the mail today I received a show I'd traded for, but as I went to play it I realized it had been burned with 2-second gaps between tracks. Is there a way I can remove those and burn myself a better copy? I really like the show but the gaps drive me crazy!

    Thanks for any help!
    That sucks. I don't know of any way to remove the gaps. I'd get another copy of the show. What's the date? If I have it, I'll send it to you.
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    Old 08-04-2004, 04:06 PM   #21
    redsoxiluv
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    Re: What to do with a TAO show?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by laron384
    That sucks. I don't know of any way to remove the gaps. I'd get another copy of the show. What's the date? If I have it, I'll send it to you.
    It's 6.11.01...do you have it? Either way, thanks for offering...seems like you're always helping me out!
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    Old 08-07-2004, 03:25 PM   #22
    athiker
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    Re: B+P's anyone?

    I have 2 shows I can do a B&P for you...Hershey park 8-23-00 and MSG12-13-00
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    Old 08-07-2004, 03:36 PM   #23
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    I'm looking for 4 shows to give my son as a christmas present. Hershey park 7/21/02... Camden NJ 9/5/03 and 7/20/04 also Dave and friends at MSG 12/17/03. I do have 2 shows I could trade... a great MSG 12/13/00 (Dave plays cortez and exodus) and Hershey 8/23/00. If anyone could help me out it would be great. Thanks
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    Old 08-17-2004, 08:58 AM   #24
    PedroPSK
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    I'm new here and that was a very informative post. Thanks Joe!
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    Old 09-03-2004, 01:08 PM   #25
    CHSlax9
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Id like to offer a B+P, but dont know how to edit the list of shows I have on disc which appears on AM.org...a little help would be great.
    Danke
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    Old 09-03-2004, 01:32 PM   #26
    Ben F.
     
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CHSlax9
    Id like to offer a B+P, but dont know how to edit the list of shows I have on disc which appears on AM.org...a little help would be great.
    Danke
    you go to the date of the show you have- and look for the link on the right that says 'i have this show' and i think it will give you the opportunity to say whose source you have, etc.

    you could also get some web space and make your own list, whichever suits you best
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    Old 09-03-2004, 03:24 PM   #27
    dmb2much40
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ben F.
    you could also get some web space and make your own list, whichever suits you best
    etree.org is a great, FREE, place to put together a list.
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    Old 09-06-2004, 06:46 PM   #28
    bluejettagirl41
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    i was wondering if anyone could possibly do a b&p for me for the dmb 2003 june 26-27 post gazette pavillion shows?
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    Old 09-09-2004, 05:57 PM   #29
    dmbfan99
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    I am hoping someone can help me out. The shn download on ants for the Dave Matthews & Friends January 16, 2004 Oakland Arena, Oakland, CA is not working can someone help me out here... Thanks
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    Old 09-11-2004, 01:55 PM   #30
    Hudak-Budak
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    Re: Trading Tips, Rules & Help

    Hey...I hate to post a question on here, because I know there are tons of FAQs, but I couldn't find the answer I'm looking for, so...

    I put a show on CD audio using Disc-At-Once with Nero, but it still put the two-second gaps between the tracks. Does anyone know of a cd writing program that won't do this? (Preferrably a free one...) Thanks for the help.
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